• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Status
Not open for further replies.

artybloke

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2004
5,222
456
67
North of England
✟8,017.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Politics
UK-Labour
The Bible does not need to be rewritten.
Did I suggest it did? Methinks you're reading what you want to read into what I said.

There's a .002%margin for error.
What has its textual accuracy got to do with its interpretation?

There is no need to delve as deep as you suggest, as we already have lexicons, Greek and Hebrew dictionaries, and multiple translations.

Well, you continue to drink the shallow milk of dogma. I prefer to eat the meat of spiritual depth.

If you're suggesting that the Bible isn't the only reliable textual source about God, I have no idea how you could call yourself a Christian, if that is what you call yourself.
You clearly don't understand what I was saying, do you?
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Well, let's see. You came into this thread saying that Muslims, Buddhists, and other religions talk about God. How do you think I'm going to understand things, hmm?
And accusing me of following dogma isn't helping you. You don't know how I interpret the Bible. Of course, you have called me a liar on another thread, so I guess you trying to discredit me wouldn't be anything new...
 
Upvote 0

artybloke

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2004
5,222
456
67
North of England
✟8,017.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Politics
UK-Labour
Each one describes different gods.

If there's only one God there's only one God to describe.

Though, come to think of it, how can anyone "describe" God? All our descriptions (the Bible's included) are nothing but vain attempts to catch the wind.

We don't describe God. We allow God to describe us.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,546
372
70
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Oh, the question is fairly simple. Why do people think it is logical to judge God's Character, or view God, outside of the Bible's context?
Because the the Bile was written by ancient peoples with ancient ideas of reality... they didn't understand the simplest things we take for granted... like the world is not flat (so heaven is not up there someplace). Monotheism to the Hebrews meant believe and worship in only one God, not that there was only one God allowed to be worshiped. They really did believe that false gods were still gods so Satan becomes a possibility to them, demon possession becomes a possibility, witchcraft and magic... we know better now. We know God is not a man with fingers, eyes and a voice or a back side...

It is IMPOSSIBLE to understand God with only the Bible as your source... you will understand God exactly as the Hebrews did (changing their descriptions and understanding of God in nearly every book), or you will become an atheist.
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Because the the Bile was written by ancient peoples with ancient ideas of reality... they didn't understand the simplest things we take for granted... like the world is not flat (so heaven is not up there someplace).
Sorry, I've never read the Bile. Kidding. Ancient ideas of reality? That doesn't mean a thing except that they were old and didn't have what we have, it doesn't mean they're wrong. Lack of understanding? Again, doesn't mean they were wrong. The Bible never claims the earth is flat. Heaven isn't up there?
Monotheism to the Hebrews meant believe and worship in only one God, not that there was only one God allowed to be worshiped.
It meant that there was one God that is worthy of worship, one God allowed to be worshiped and believed in without consequences. You contradicted yourself...
They really did believe that false gods were still gods so Satan becomes a possibility to them, demon possession becomes a possibility, witchcraft and magic... we know better now.
Know better? Where's the proof against it?
We know God is not a man with fingers, eyes and a voice or a back side...
Yes, that's why Moses saw God's back and heard God's voice. That's why God's hand covered Moses when this happened.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to understand God with only the Bible as your source... you will understand God exactly as the Hebrews did (changing their descriptions and understanding of God in nearly every book), or you will become an atheist.
The Hebrews didn't change their descriptions, or their understanding. They changed their amount of dedication to Him.

Yeah, that's why we rely on the Holy Spirit. The Bible isn't the only guide we have, and that wasn't the claim. But the Bible is the most reliable source, as it is God's Word.
Oh, and how come I'm not an atheist? Or how come I don't change my understanding of God? Your argument is either-or, and more than that what you state happens.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,546
372
70
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You have your opinion, but it's far from fact. The Bible does not need to be rewritten. It wasn't added to. And the texts inside it were never taken away from. There's a .002%margin for error. There is no need to delve as deep as you suggest, as we already have lexicons, Greek and Hebrew dictionaries, and multiple translations. If you're suggesting that the Bible isn't the only reliable textual source about God, I have no idea how you could call yourself a Christian, if that is what you call yourself.
I would love to see where this bogus number (.002%) came from. Your reference (completely out of context of adding and taking away from is totally inappropriate (look at Mark 16 and everything added to the Bible in the New Testament). That expression refers specifically to Revelation. NOTHING ELSE.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,546
372
70
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
jawsmetroid;39512855Sorry, I've never read the Bile. Kidding. Ancient ideas of reality? That doesn't mean a thing except that they were old and didn't have what we have, it doesn't mean they're wrong. Lack of understanding? Again, doesn't mean they were wrong. The Bible never claims the earth is flat. Heaven isn't up there?
Global flood? Sun stopped in the sky? Talking donkeys? Slay a thousand with the jaw bone of an ass? Women unclean during menstruation? Leprosy contagious? Demons possessing people?
They were wrong.

It meant that there was one God that is worthy of worship, one God allowed to be worshiped and believed in without consequences. You contradicted yourself...
You don't see the error, do you? Monotheism now means there is one God. You just stated there is only one God worthy or worship... implying there are other gods.... you are the one who contradicted yourself... along with the Hebrews. It isn't until the later prophets where they state there is only ONE God. Even in the Ten Commandments it is stated you shall have no other gods before me...

Know better? Where's the proof against it?

Proof against what? Show me something other than the hysterical or manipulative rantings of someone to prove any of that is true.

Yes, that's why Moses saw God's back and heard God's voice. That's why God's hand covered Moses when this happened.
Ha ha ha ha ha! So God is a finite person with an ass and genitalia... I'll bet He isn't circumcised!!!!!! What was the rest of the universe doing doing this finite moment of God on Mt Sinai? Just hangin' around?
You believe that is an historical account... why?


The Hebrews didn't change their descriptions, or their understanding. They changed their amount of dedication to Him.
OY!
Yeah, that's why we rely on the Holy Spirit. The Bible isn't the only guide we have, and that wasn't the claim. But the Bible is the most reliable source, as it is God's Word.
Oh, and how come I'm not an atheist? Or how come I don't change my understanding of God? Your argument is either-or, and more than that what you state happens.

As far as I am concerned you are not an atheist but an idolater, one who worships man made objects... namely the Bible. The Bible is not God's word... and if it was... explain why God was doing all this talking for 3000 years and then just stopped right after the Council of Nicea?

It is apparently the only guide you have. If you are so convinced everything in the Bible is TRUE, nothing else matters... how could the Holy Spirit possibly teach you the truth when you couldn't hear anything contrary to the written words of man.
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Global flood? Sun stopped in the sky? Talking donkeys? Slay a thousand with the jaw bone of an ass? Women unclean during menstruation? Leprosy contagious? Demons possessing people?
They were wrong.
Evidence? Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's false.
You don't see the error, do you? Monotheism now means there is one God. You just stated there is only one God worthy or worship... implying there are other gods....
No, I did not imply anything. You assumed.
you are the one who contradicted yourself...
You assume much.
along with the Hebrews.
Evidence?
It isn't until the later prophets where they state there is only ONE God.
Ten commandments.
Even in the Ten Commandments it is stated you shall have no other gods before me...
'ĕlôhîym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech: noun masculine plural

Right then. Doesn't imply that there are other gods, it implies that one should not have another ruler or put on above God.

Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.


In other words, no idolatry.

Proof against what? Show me something other than the hysterical or manipulative rantings of someone to prove any of that is true.
Eyewitness accounts, as recorded in the Bible.

Ha ha ha ha ha! So God is a finite person with an ass and genitalia... I'll bet He isn't circumcised!!!!!!
Why post here if you're going to mock others' beliefs? Or make assumptions, yet again? Because I didn't claim God was finite.
Of course, if you really wanted to go there, you could go with the John 10:30 explanation, where Jesus is God in the flesh... the whole Trinity doctrine.
What was the rest of the universe doing doing this finite moment of God on Mt Sinai? Just hangin' around?
I never said finite, I stated that He has physical attributes. Stop making unfounded assumptions. I hate repeating myself.
You believe that is an historical account... why?
Textual evidence and reliability. Read Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands A Verdict sometime.


What, have you never read Judges? Or 1/2 Kings 1/2 Chronicles?
As far as I am concerned you are not an atheist but an idolater, one who worships man made objects... namely the Bible.
So you're going to make accusations instead of arguments?
The Bible is not God's word... and if it was... explain why God was doing all this talking for 3000 years and then just stopped right after the Council of Nicea?
That's not an argument. He didn't stop talking. People stopped listening- God talks to me every day. But do you believe me when I- and others- say that?
It is apparently the only guide you have.
The only 100% reliable guide, anyway. Anything else is subjective, and therefore not completely reliable.
If you are so convinced everything in the Bible is TRUE, nothing else matters... how could the Holy Spirit possibly teach you the truth when you couldn't hear anything contrary to the written words of man.
Yet Jesus considers the words to be God's in Mark 10.
Oh, and there's the textual evidence and 2 Timothy 3:16, but that's not nearly as strong as the Mark 10 argument. Or the prophecy argument.
I would love to see where this bogus number (.002%) came from. Your reference (completely out of context of adding and taking away from is totally inappropriate (look at Mark 16 and everything added to the Bible in the New Testament). That expression refers specifically to Revelation. NOTHING ELSE.
You ask me for sources, yet you give none when you try to refute it. Lee Strobel, Case For Christ. In reference to the entire Bible, not simply Revelation.


Do you have any evidence or argument for your claims and assumptions?
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,546
372
70
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Other than the totally inconsistent explanations you provided... let's see if we can narrow down this "assumptions".

If God is physically standing in front of Moses... he is finite, right? There are places that he is and places and things that are not God?

You said the Bible is the eyewitness account of events... you was Moses' witness? Who was Jesus witness in the wilderness, or Jacob's witness while wrestling with the Angel? Who was Noah's witness? Jonah's witness? Adam's witness? Balaam's?

If God is talking to you... why aren't you writing it down... like Moses did for the rest of humanity? Why aren't priests and scholars pouring over these holy words of God for understanding and truth like they did and do to the Bible?

Elohim is a plural word... the gods.... How can God be one when God is plural... in God's own words... "us"? It is the Bible that says there are more than just one God.
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If God is physically standing in front of Moses... he is finite, right? There are places that he is and places and things that are not God?
Hello? Physical features doesn't mean that God is always physical. Trinity?

You said the Bible is the eyewitness account of events... you was Moses' witness? Who was Jesus witness in the wilderness, or Jacob's witness while wrestling with the Angel? Who was Noah's witness? Jonah's witness? Adam's witness? Balaam's?
They were. You don't know much about Bible history, do you? Histories were often passed down and passed around orally- with great detail in getting things right. And no, that doesn't mean they're unreliable.
If God is talking to you... why aren't you writing it down... like Moses did for the rest of humanity? Why aren't priests and scholars pouring over these holy words of God for understanding and truth like they did and do to the Bible?
Like I said before, why are you bothering to post if you're going to mock people's claims?
Oral repeating of things was is and will be done in telling what God does. There's plenty of testimony, plenty I've written as well. I don't know why you're pressing this issue, there's no point to it. You are on the internet. Go read.
Elohim is a plural word... the gods.... How can God be one when God is plural... in God's own words... "us"? It is the Bible that says there are more than just one God.
Trinity? I believe I've said that 3 times now, once in my last response.

Other than the totally inconsistent explanations you provided... let's see if we can narrow down this "assumptions".
Another claim without backing. Any more you'd like to share with us?
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,546
372
70
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
jawsmetroid;Hello? Physical features doesn't mean that God is always physical. Trinity?

So God is occupying two places at the same time and has more than one "person" in the same place at the same time?


They were. You don't know much about Bible history, do you? Histories were often passed down and passed around orally- with great detail in getting things right. And no, that doesn't mean they're unreliable.

Who is they? Witnesses to their own stories that they didn't write? Balaam didn't write hs own story, nor did Noah or Jesus. Moses didn't write his own story and maybe, just maybe Jonah did.
Getting things right? Why would you think this 3000 year old game of telephone was so interested in getting things right? People hear and read what they want to hear and read.

Like I said before, why are you bothering to post if you're going to mock people's claims?
Oral repeating of things was is and will be done in telling what God does. There's plenty of testimony, plenty I've written as well. I don't know why you're pressing this issue, there's no point to it. You are on the internet. Go read.
So is your writing/testimony on the level of the prophets because they wrote what God said to them?
Trinity? I believe I've said that 3 times now, once in my last response.
You should probably study the trinity doctrines, then, because you got God talking to himselves (sic)...
Another claim without backing. Any more you'd like to share with us?

You don't understand the doctrine of the trinity, you don't understand the doctrines of an infinite God and you apparently don't understand that repeating the word "trinity" is not an argument.
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So God is occupying two places at the same time and has more than one "person" in the same place at the same time?
Omnipresent, so no, not more than one 'person' in the same place at the same time, one person in different places at the same time.
Who is they? Witnesses to their own stories that they didn't write? Balaam didn't write hs own story, nor did Noah or Jesus. Moses didn't write his own story and maybe, just maybe Jonah did.
So what they say isn't trustworthy? If I wrote down right now that I'm sitting in a classroom with a green backgrounded powerpoint presentation in front of me, it wouldn't be reliable simply because I said it and someone else wrote it, and didn't write it myself? That's what you're claiming.


Getting things right? Why would you think this 3000 year old game of telephone was so interested in getting things right? People hear and read what they want to hear and read.
You don't know much about the Hebrew culture. It was normal for them to care very much about what they were told and what they told other people, they cared very much about getting things right so they wouldn't displease God and for plenty of other reasons. Your last statement might be true today, but you cannot prove it has always been true. There are always those who want truth, regardless of the cost.
So is your writing/testimony on the level of the prophets because they wrote what God said to them?
Jesus gave His disciples authority to cast out demons, raise the dead, heal the sick, and do plenty of other things. But He can't give people today that authority? Anyone who is indwelt by the Spirit has that authority. The only difference is, some people are very good liars and so their writing must be tested against the Bible.
You should probably study the trinity doctrines, then, because you got God talking to himselves (sic)...
I know the trinity doctrine, thank you. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it isn't true. That's not how truth works.

You don't understand the doctrine of the trinity, you don't understand the doctrines of an infinite God and you apparently don't understand that repeating the word "trinity" is not an argument.
The first and second is an unbacked claim. You don't know and cannot judge what I do or do not understand.
You neglect the trinity doctrine in your questions, if it be just to call them that.

When are you going to respond to all the evidence and claims I've put forth? You only give me more credence when you neglect some.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,546
372
70
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Omnipresent, so no, not more than one 'person' in the same place at the same time, one person in different places at the same time.

So what they say isn't trustworthy? If I wrote down right now that I'm sitting in a classroom with a green backgrounded powerpoint presentation in front of me, it wouldn't be reliable simply because I said it and someone else wrote it, and didn't write it myself? That's what you're claiming.



You don't know much about the Hebrew culture. It was normal for them to care very much about what they were told and what they told other people, they cared very much about getting things right so they wouldn't displease God and for plenty of other reasons. Your last statement might be true today, but you cannot prove it has always been true. There are always those who want truth, regardless of the cost.

Jesus gave His disciples authority to cast out demons, raise the dead, heal the sick, and do plenty of other things. But He can't give people today that authority? Anyone who is indwelt by the Spirit has that authority. The only difference is, some people are very good liars and so their writing must be tested against the Bible.

I know the trinity doctrine, thank you. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it isn't true. That's not how truth works.


The first and second is an unbacked claim. You don't know and cannot judge what I do or do not understand.
You neglect the trinity doctrine in your questions, if it be just to call them that.

When are you going to respond to all the evidence and claims I've put forth? You only give me more credence when you neglect some.
Evidence? I have seen no evidence. Please point out in which posts you presented evidence.
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Evidence? I have seen no evidence. Please point out in which posts you presented evidence.
Practically every one except the first two. Or are you going to be just like the other ignorant debaters on this site and only listen to what you want to hear, and claim that it's not evidence (even though it comes from a perfectly legit source).
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,546
372
70
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Practically every one except the first two. Or are you going to be just like the other ignorant debaters on this site and only listen to what you want to hear, and claim that it's not evidence (even though it comes from a perfectly legit source).
Your opinion, based on nothing but your thoughts, is not evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Tawhano

Northland Highwayman
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2003
3,109
118
72
North Carolina
Visit site
✟71,438.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
KCDAD said:
They really did believe that false gods were still gods so Satan becomes a possibility to them
Can you provide the source in which you came to the conclusion that Satan was a god to the Hebrews?
KCDAD said:
Global flood? Sun stopped in the sky? Talking donkeys? Slay a thousand with the jaw bone of an ass? Women unclean during menstruation? Leprosy contagious? Demons possessing people?
They were wrong.
You seem pretty sure of yourself; care to provide the proof that they were wrong?
KCDAD said:
Even in the Ten Commandments it is stated you shall have no other gods before me...
There were other gods…false gods…objects and concepts that man made into gods. They weren’t really gods at all in the sense that God is a god.
KCDAD said:
Elohim is a plural word... the gods.... How can God be one when God is plural... in God's own words... "us"? It is the Bible that says there are more than just one God.
This argument would hold weight if the word ‘God’ was first written in English but it was not. El in the plural form Elohim was how the one and only true god was referenced in the Old Testament. This is why translators translated the word into the English word ‘God’ instead of ‘Gods’.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.