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Why would we reject grace?

joshuanazar

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Jesus said that he did not consider us servants, but we were his friends. Friends is something that most of us have so we can somewhat get a good picture of this relationship that Jesus wants with us. Would a true friend tell you that if you didn't do something for them that they would no longer hang with you? Then why would we think Jesus would? If I wasn't able to obtain my relationship by my works, then why would I think that my works are good enough to maintain this relationship? I have a few friend that I love, and if they were to ever ask me for help I would not hesitate to help. Not because I want to keep them as my friends (they are not that shallow), but I will help because I love them. Often they don't even have to ask, I will jump to help as soon as I know that there is a problem.

The OP was not attacking anyone who wants to walk with God, it just pointed out that trying to obey a law was not the way that we get to walk with God. Jesus said that if we love him we will keep his commandments. I keep those commandments not out of obligation but out of love and joy. I have an amazing relationship with God and it is not based on any form of law. It is based purely on his grace.
 
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Alithis

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The obedience doesn't bring the change. God brings the change and the change brings the obedience. My actions will always be insufficient, so I might as well stop trying and let God do it in me. While my actions are insufficient, his grace is always sufficient
no one is saying his grace is not sufficient but he gives us the grace to obey .

and no ! change does not occur without obedience - the entire gospel depends on our obedience .that is to say .. we are told to believe and repent ..or repent and believe. those are acts of obedience ,if we refuse to believe and then refuse to repent, we remain in disobedience and no change is wrought in us ...
we could not do either before God was gracious to us and bestowed his favor upon us . but he did not bestow such favor upon us that we might continue as servants of sin nor self ..
but speak the whole story not a part. if the lord is speaking to you about a certain (whatever in your life ) you must listen and obey . he saved you from sin and set you free from its power that you might no longer be slave to it . he did so that you may now serve life rather then death .. there is no ,middle neutral ground where you sit on ones butt and do as you please .

you've inadvertently implied that listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit is a law to be avoided .. but it is life for adhering to the living word of God ..is life . if we do as he tells us we live if wee disobey .. we miss out on living .
we do what he says because we love him .any other reason has missed the point
 
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ToBeLoved

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no one is saying his grace is not sufficient but he gives us the grace to obey .

and no ! change does not occur without obedience - the entire gospel depends on our obedience .that is to say .. we are told to believe and repent ..or repent and believe. those are acts of obedience ,if we refuse to believe and then refuse to repent, we remain in disobedience and no change is wrought in us ...
we could not do either before God was gracious to us and bestowed his favor upon us . but he did not bestow such favor upon us that we might continue as servants of sin nor self ..
but speak the whole story not a part. if the lord is speaking to you about a certain (whatever in your life ) you must listen and obey . he saved you from sin and set you free from its power that you might no longer be slave to it . he did so that you may now serve life rather then death .. there is no ,middle neutral ground where you sit on ones butt and do as you please .

you've inadvertently implied that listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit is a law to be avoided .. but it is life for adhering to the living word of God ..is life . if we do as he tells us we live if wee disobey .. we miss out on living .
we do what he says because we love him .any other reason has missed the point

Why would anyone be coming to God for Salvation that does not believe that they need to be saved from their sins? It just doesn't make sense.

We don't believe in God because we read or hear the bible tell us to believe? If it was that way everyone who heard the gospel would believe.

I don't get what you have written at all. It's like opposing ideas smashing into one another.
 
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Xalith

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I've been trying to figure the very same out, too.

I'm not sure where they're coming from, but the way I understood it is this:

The steps of a Christian's life goes something like this:

*He/She is born a sinner.
*He/She hears the gospel at some point in their lives, perhaps multiple times before the next step occurs.
*He/She makes a conscious decision/realization that they are living in sin and that they face death and damnation if they do nothing about it.
*He/She makes a conscious decision that they need Salvation from this grim eternal fate.
*He/She believes that Christ is the Son of God, who died on the cross, and was resurrected three days later, and in doing so, won victory over sin and death.
*He/She confesses Christ as Lord
*He/She repents for their sin (so many people don't know what the word 'repent' means.

As per www.dictionary.com:
1. to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often followed by of):
He repented after his thoughtless act.
2.to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.

*He/She receives the Holy Spirit and becomes Justified.
*He/She is slowly sanctified over time to be more like Him.
*He/She will have a dislike, or hatred for sin and sinful actions and will avoid them anywhere possible.

Now, where most professing "Christians" tend to fail, is at the Repent and Dislike/Hatred for Sin parts (this is likely because they don't truly believe that they are sinners and require salvation). You will see "Christians" professing Christ as Lord, but yet they keep living in sin without much of any effort to break away from said sin. I can't judge these people, for that is only for Him to do, but the Bible tells us about these people that taste of the cup and then fall away. A lot of these will become apostates, especially if they are preachers/ministers/etc who do this.

The Scriptures tell us that you will know a Christian by his fruits; you'll know a Christian as being one whose life has been changed by some degree (though some people might have such slight changes you might not notice right away, other people will turn their lives around 180' overnight), whose attitudes and actions show Jesus at work in their lives, as they show some of the same qualities Christ was known for.

Now obviously, nobody is going to be a perfect Christian while on this Earth (the Bible outright states this), it is simply impossible while we remain in our fleshly bodies. This isn't a license to make excuses as to why we sin (if we're Saved, then we're constantly lamenting the fact we still sin daily, but we recognize that some of this is unavoidable and we praise God daily for helping us avoid sin whenever possible, and being willing to forgive and forget the sins we do commit), but merely a consolation for when we inevitably fail (every Christian will fall short and fail at some points in their lives).

I apologize for lack of Scripture in this post, I wrote it a little hastily before going to work, but I'm sure those who have the Bible a bit better memorized than I do know which Scriptures I'm referring to here.

EDIT: As to the OP's question, as to why some people reject Grace, I think Rev. David Wilkerson said it best, and I'm going to paraphrase from best of my memory of what he said, in essence:

Pride. Some people who believe in God and Christ are going to die, and end up at the Judgment Seat and they're going to say "What do you mean, all I had to do was repent and believe!? That was too easy! I had to do SOMETHING to earn this!"

And I tend to agree with Rev. Wilkerson; some people just can't wrap their minds around a free gift in a world full of capitalism and greed. That is, of course, Satan's doing.
 
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joshuanazar

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no one is saying his grace is not sufficient but he gives us the grace to obey .

and no ! change does not occur without obedience - the entire gospel depends on our obedience .that is to say .. we are told to believe and repent ..or repent and believe. those are acts of obedience ,if we refuse to believe and then refuse to repent, we remain in disobedience and no change is wrought in us ...
we could not do either before God was gracious to us and bestowed his favor upon us . but he did not bestow such favor upon us that we might continue as servants of sin nor self ..
but speak the whole story not a part. if the lord is speaking to you about a certain (whatever in your life ) you must listen and obey . he saved you from sin and set you free from its power that you might no longer be slave to it . he did so that you may now serve life rather then death .. there is no ,middle neutral ground where you sit on ones butt and do as you please .

you've inadvertently implied that listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit is a law to be avoided .. but it is life for adhering to the living word of God ..is life . if we do as he tells us we live if wee disobey .. we miss out on living .
we do what he says because we love him .any other reason has missed the point
The entire Gospel depends on Gods grace, the Law depends on our obedience. Believing and repenting are not actions of obedience but actions of love allowed to us because of his grace.

Let me tell you my story. I became a christian when I was alone without any other christian around and I continued to be alone like this for 3 years. It was just me, God, and his Word. I learned from the Spirit and I know that I do not believe in any of the traditions that often plague the churches because I didn't learn from any church, but from God's Spirit of truth. When I read about the Law being dead, that grace is without any works, and all things are now lawful to me even though not all things are expedient, I realized that I did not have to do ANYTHING. Strangely enough though I still did the things that were good. Not because I was trying to obey or please God (God is always pleased with us because he is pleased with his Son), but because I love God and I want to be like him. Following the Spirit's guidance and not it's laws (the spiritual spiritual law that we have to obey) is how I become closer to God. The Spirit doesn't try to condemn me for not following some law (there is no condemnation in Christ), but the Spirit tells me what God is like. and I want to be more like that and so the Spirit makes me more like him.
 
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Gunny

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The defeated enemy of our souls wants the Holy Ghost filled disciple of Jesus Christ to live the Do good-Get Good principle. Always striving rather than resting in Jesus-Living in His Presence. The defeated foe works really hard for God's beloved children to live under self-condemnation, shame, and guilt-Which completely render the disciple of Jesus walking in defeat, discouragement, etc... This state of affair is very sad for we are to be about Kingdom Activity (being about the Father's business) sharing the Gospel of Jesus.
 
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cuja1

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Did you get a chance to read the article I attached to the previous post or Romans 4-7? I had hoped that that additional information would be helpful to you.

Sorry ToBeLoved, I didn't have time to read it earlier this week, I just read it. Thank you for the information.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I've been trying to figure the very same out, too.

I'm not sure where they're coming from, but the way I understood it is this:

The steps of a Christian's life goes something like this:

*He/She is born a sinner.
*He/She hears the gospel at some point in their lives, perhaps multiple times before the next step occurs.
*He/She makes a conscious decision/realization that they are living in sin and that they face death and damnation if they do nothing about it.
*He/She makes a conscious decision that they need Salvation from this grim eternal fate.
*He/She believes that Christ is the Son of God, who died on the cross, and was resurrected three days later, and in doing so, won victory over sin and death.
*He/She confesses Christ as Lord
*He/She repents for their sin (so many people don't know what the word 'repent' means.

As per www.dictionary.com:


*He/She receives the Holy Spirit and becomes Justified.
*He/She is slowly sanctified over time to be more like Him.
*He/She will have a dislike, or hatred for sin and sinful actions and will avoid them anywhere possible.

This is pretty on point. The only thing that I want to clarify is the last point "He/She will have a dislike, or hatred for sin and sinful actions and will avoid them anywhere possible." This point kind of works with the point above it about sanctification. One of the roles of the Holy Spirit is to help us as we slowly become sanctified (or more like Christ). The Holy Spirit does convict us of our sin. People that tend to have a more personal relationship with God are usually more apt to hear the convictions of the Holy Spirit if they are praying and/or nurturing their relationship with God. So usually, out dislike of sin is a combination of our realizing after our sin what would have been the action we should have taken and the Holy Spirit convicting us in our hearts and minds of sin. God also places us in situations and uses other Christians and His Word to show us different situations and what His will would be.

Your steps are pretty spot on. :oldthumbsup:
 
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ToBeLoved

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I can't judge these people, for that is only for Him to do, but the Bible tells us about these people that taste of the cup and then fall away. A lot of these will become apostates, especially if they are preachers/ministers/etc who do this.

The Scriptures tell us that you will know a Christian by his fruits; you'll know a Christian as being one whose life has been changed by some degree (though some people might have such slight changes you might not notice right away, other people will turn their lives around 180' overnight), whose attitudes and actions show Jesus at work in their lives, as they show some of the same qualities Christ was known for.

This is a very good point and I'm glad you mentioned it. We are not to judge other Christians and the way we should see Christians is by looking at their fruit which are the fruit of the spirit. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Xalith

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It takes some humility to realize there is nothing you can do to earn salvation. Pride makes us think we can somehow earn it

*nods*

This is, sadly, where most fail. There's always that nagging feeling that one needs to *earn* something. Satan designed the world system quite well, unfortunately for these people. It is drummed into them from little kids that they have to *WORK* to earn anything, and that every gift has strings attached.

It is so deeply baked into most peoples' minds, that they just can't comprehend Grace, the kind that God and Jesus would give them, if they'd just believe, repent and accept it.
 
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Job8

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How could anyone who has ever experienced God's grace choose to reject it in favor of the Law and work?
It is probably not the ones who truly experience God's grace who reject it, but the ones who do not truly experience it because they do not repent and believe the Gospel.

We should be clear at the outset that grace is foreign to human nature and the world systems. That is why none of the world's religions speak about salvation by grace through faith. It is always salvation by merit, and hopefully another few reincarnated lives to set things right. As to those who prefer the works of the Law rather than pure grace, it is the same idea of salvation through our own merit, which corresponds to success through our own efforts in other spheres.

But we need to be clear about "obedience". Grace does not mean freedom from obedience to God and His commandments. It means obedience through the power of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who believes that being saved by grace is a license to sin or disregard obedience does not really know what Scripture teaches. That is why the true Gospel says "Repent and be converted".
 
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Job8

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Something else which many people do not truly understand is that a price was paid for God's grace to come to all men. No one can truly understand what it cost the Lord Jesus Christ to purchase our redemption. Furthermore, there are too many Christians who have not been taught the fulness of God's salvation and their true position in Christ. There could be many reasons for that, but there is little theological depth in a lot preaching and teaching today.

Thus grace is poorly understood by many Christians, and if you were to ask them exactly what was accomplished at the Cross and in the Resurrection, they would be hard put to explain this. If you were to ask them what grace has accomplished for eternity and the eternal plans and purposes of God, they could be mystified.
 
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joshuanazar

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There are some who believe that obedience is a requirement for receiving God's grace. They are in bondage to their works. Some Christians know that obedience is a result of the Holy Spirit's sanctification in their life due to grace. They are living in freedom. I never advocate license to sin. If a "Christian" desires some license to sin, then they haven't really experienced grace. A real Christian wouldn't want to sin even if they had a license to do so.
 
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pescador

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How could anyone who has ever experienced God's grace choose to reject it in favor of the Law and work? But that is exactly what happens. Not just in the early churches like Galatia and Corinth, but here in our churches today. I know a lot of people just do it in ignorance and tradition. But, why do they keep ignoring the truth about grace? Why are they so keen to keep following their laws? It really bothers me, when my friends care more about working to obtain God's love then they do about actually experiencing his love.

I too am really troubled by people who try to earn God's love, thinking that somehow, if they behave the "right" way, they will succeed. They remind me of the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son who complained that he had done all the "right" things and therefore deserved some reward. It baffles me why the gift of God's grace in Jesus Christ simply can't be accepted as a gift. There must be some residual guilt or shame that people feel about themselves: "I'm not perfect so God can't love me." It is truly one of the great tragedies in Christendom.
 
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Xalith

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I've come to understand Grace fairly recently (~4mo ago), after believing in God since I was a kid, and hearing the Gospel many times.

Many, many times I prayed asking for Him to save me, many times I "repented" for my sins (I didn't know the true meaning of the word back when I was a teenager), etc.

Well, these days... while I understand the concept of His gift and His grace, I still try not to sin, I still try to do the "right" thing.

Is it a bad thing for us to want to do things that are pleasing to God?
Is it a bad thing for us to try to avoid sin whenever we can?
Is it a bad thing to say prayers of apology whenever you do something wrong?
Is it a bad thing to ask Him for forgiveness for doing something wrong?

With the last part, forgiveness, I know that He already paid the price for our sin, but yet at the same time, I just feel that it is right to acknowledge that I did something wrong, and ask for forgiveness anyways. Not that I am afraid that He's going to send me to Hell for some small sin after promising salvation to those who believe and repent, it is more out of love and respect that I still say an apology anyways.

Isn't that part of "Repenting"? Feeling sorrow/regret for the bad stuff you still do occasionally?

The unsaved can sin and not feel guilty, and they will not be chastised by God no matter how much they sin. The saved, however, feel terrible when they do something wrong and realize it later and want to seek to apologize for it.
 
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SkyWriting

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muddleglum

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The entire Gospel depends on Gods grace,
However, you don't believe this.
because I love God and I want to be like him.
Now you are saying that you are so good that you love God. Don't you mean that because God made a you a new creation in Christ, you now have the mind of Christ and therefore His love of God?
There is only one connecting link that you, and you only, could "boast" about between hearing the Gospel and walking in the Truth. That is trusting God's provision for you. Only you could chose to trust God's provision that you can actually abide in Christ!
 
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joshuanazar

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However, you don't believe this.

Now you are saying that you are so good that you love God. Don't you mean that because God made a you a new creation in Christ, you now have the mind of Christ and therefore His love of God?
There is only one connecting link that you, and you only, could "boast" about between hearing the Gospel and walking in the Truth. That is trusting God's provision for you. Only you could chose to trust God's provision that you can actually abide in Christ!
1. I do believe this with everything that I am.
2. It seems that you have taken one post that I made without considering the other posts that I made. Everything depends on his grace, I love him because he first loved me. And what I was saying was that it was love that motivates me to follow the Spirits leading, not fear of punishment or something along those lines. I am not sure what your purpose was but you have misquoted me.
 
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joshuanazar

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I've come to understand Grace fairly recently (~4mo ago), after believing in God since I was a kid, and hearing the Gospel many times.

Many, many times I prayed asking for Him to save me, many times I "repented" for my sins (I didn't know the true meaning of the word back when I was a teenager), etc.

Well, these days... while I understand the concept of His gift and His grace, I still try not to sin, I still try to do the "right" thing.

Is it a bad thing for us to want to do things that are pleasing to God?
Is it a bad thing for us to try to avoid sin whenever we can?
Is it a bad thing to say prayers of apology whenever you do something wrong?
Is it a bad thing to ask Him for forgiveness for doing something wrong?

With the last part, forgiveness, I know that He already paid the price for our sin, but yet at the same time, I just feel that it is right to acknowledge that I did something wrong, and ask for forgiveness anyways. Not that I am afraid that He's going to send me to Hell for some small sin after promising salvation to those who believe and repent, it is more out of love and respect that I still say an apology anyways.

Isn't that part of "Repenting"? Feeling sorrow/regret for the bad stuff you still do occasionally?

The unsaved can sin and not feel guilty, and they will not be chastised by God no matter how much they sin. The saved, however, feel terrible when they do something wrong and realize it later and want to seek to apologize for it.
Don't be so concerned with what you do, but why you do it. I read my bible just like someone bound by the chains of religion, but our motives are different. Just remember that it is all because of his grace and that is also what it is all about.
 
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