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Why would someone die for something they know to be a lie?

a1000smiles

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Yesterday I was listening to thehousefm.com and they have this segmant where they talk about the Christian martyrs past and present (OH man there are so many of them) and one story that caught my attention was the way Bartholomew died. Bartholomew was Jesus' own disciple so he would know FIRST HAND if Jesus has actually died and raised again or not. Yet, he went to a lot of places preaching the Gospal, when he was preaching in Armenia, the king's bro became Christian. Furious he commanded Bartholomew to worship their pagan God. When he refused to do so, the king had him be whipped and crucified. The whole time he called out Jesus' name until finally they had his head cut off. This story was so touching to me that I went and did a little more research on how the others died, I knew John was the only one who died of old age even though he was thrown in a pit of boiling oil and then exiled, and Peter demanded he be crucified upside down because he felt he was not worthy to die the same way his Saviour did. Here is an article I found. God Bless you. Have an AWESOME day! =D

The Martyrdom of the Apostles

by Grant R. Jeffrey (from his book "The Signature of God")


Some atheists have suggested that the disciples, during the decades following His death, simply invented their accounts of Jesus. These Bible critics say that the disciples, in an attempt to enhance His authority, then published the story that Jesus claimed to be God and was resurrected. Any fair-minded reader should consider the historical evidence. First, the apostles were continually threatened and pressured to deny their Lord during their ministry; especially as they faced torture and martyrdom. However, none of these men who spent time with Jesus chose to save their lives by denying their faith in Him. Consider this hypothetical situation: Suppose these men had conspired to form a new religion based on their imagination. How long would anyone continue to proclaim something they knew was a lie when faced with lengthy tortures and an inescapable, painful death? All they had to do to escape martyrdom was to admit they had concocted a lie and simply deny their faith and claims about Jesus as God. It defies both common sense and the evidence of history that anyone, let alone a group of twelve men, would persist in proclaiming a lie when they could walk away by admitting that it was a fraud.

Yet, history reveals that not one of these men, who knew Jesus personally, ever denied their testimony about Him despite the threat and reality of imminent death. This proves to any fair-minded observer that these men possessed an absolute unshakable personal knowledge about the truth of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Each of the apostles were called upon to pay the ultimate price to prove their faith in Jesus, affirming with their life's blood that Jesus was the true Messiah, the Son of God, and the only hope of salvation for a sinful humanity.

Most of our information about the deaths of the apostles is derived from early church traditions. While tradition is unreliable as to small details, it very seldom contains outright inventions. Eusebius, the most important of the early church historians wrote his history of the early church in A.D. 325. He wrote, "The apostles and disciples of the Savior scattered over the whole world, preached the Gospel everywhere." The Church historian Schumacher researched the lives of the apostles and recounted the history of their martyrdoms.

Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.

Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to church tradition because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.

James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.

James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip. (more info on him on top)

Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

The apostle Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent. (In Tamil Nadu, Thomas Mountain)

Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.

Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.

Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.
The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.

The details of the martyrdoms of the disciples and apostles are found in traditional early church sources. These traditions were recounted in the writings of the church fathers and the first official church history written by the historian Eusebius in A.D. 325. Although we can not at this time verify every detail historically, the universal belief of the early Christian writers was that each of the apostles had faced martyrdom faithfully without denying their faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Reference: Jeffrey, Grant R., "The Signature of God", Frontier Research Publications, Inc. (1996), p.254-257 Grant Jeffrey's book "The Signature of God" can be ordered from
GRANT R. JEFFREY MINISTRIES
 

Robinsegg

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They wouldn't. That's why the concept that the Disciples were perpetuating falsehood is ridiculous. If they believed it to be false, why die for it? They'd gain nothing after they died. If, however, they believed it to be true, why capitulate to live?

Rachel
 
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HoustonHorn

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By that logic Allah is real because the September 11th bombers were willing to die in His name.

Many people during Roman times were killed for their beliefs, not all of the Christian. How do you determine which of these were really doing the work of God (your choice of gods) or were just delusional?
 
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Captivated

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HoustonHorn said:
By that logic Allah is real because the September 11th bombers were willing to die in His name.

Many people during Roman times were killed for their beliefs, not all of the Christian. How do you determine which of these were really doing the work of God (your choice of gods) or were just delusional?
When did the September 11th terrorists meet Muhammed, live with him, see him die? The apostles were in the unique situation of knowing beyond doubt what happened to Jesus and were still prepared to die for the privilege of being called his. Would you do the same if you knew it was a hoax?
 
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intricatic

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HoustonHorn said:
By that logic Allah is real because the September 11th bombers were willing to die in His name.

Many people during Roman times were killed for their beliefs, not all of the Christian. How do you determine which of these were really doing the work of God (your choice of gods) or were just delusional?
Apples and oranges, bro.

Like has been pointed out by Captivated already, the distinction was in the fact that the Apostles were witness to a man who claimed to be God in the flesh dying on a cross, as well as His entire life on this earth, and saw him resurrected from the grave.

The people in Roman times were killed for something they merely believed with no substantiating evidence. The Islamic bombers in the Sept.. 11th attack were doing likewise. Besides the fact that the Islamic attackers were just that; attackers. The idea of martyrdom was twisted into something other than what it truly is.
 
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HoustonHorn

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Ok, I missed the point a little.

But, we're told that we have to have faith to be saved - by faith through grace. Don't you think it takes a lot more faith to believe not having seen the real thing?

And since the original posting wasn't a question, I've got one.

If we are in fact saved by faith through grace, how were the people that actually saw Jesus saved? I've had several people tell me that if God popped down and said, "Hey, it's me God", then we wouldn't be believing on faith anymore, but believing because of actually having seen God.
 
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Robinsegg

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HoustonHorn said:
By that logic Allah is real because the September 11th bombers were willing to die in His name.

Many people during Roman times were killed for their beliefs, not all of the Christian. How do you determine which of these were really doing the work of God (your choice of gods) or were just delusional?
You'll notice I spoke specifically of the Disciples. These 11 men (Judas died by his own hand) spent 3.5 years with Jesus during His ministry. Now, after that amount of time, I'd expect them to know if He was phony or true. If His resurrection and ascension were true (they were, after all, supposed to be eyewitnesses to the ascension and the resurrected Christ). They'd also be in a first-hand position to know if the whole thing was a concocted mess of lies.

Those you mention were not first-hand witnesses to what they believed in. The Disciples were. How do you explain 11 men (and other first-hand witnesses) dying for that which they know, first-hand, not to be true? It just doesn't compute. However, if they saw these things and believed them to be true, it would make sense to proclaim that truth to the end.

Rachel
 
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intricatic

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HoustonHorn said:
Ok, I missed the point a little.

But, we're told that we have to have faith to be saved - by faith through grace. Don't you think it takes a lot more faith to believe not having seen the real thing?

And since the original posting wasn't a question, I've got one.

If we are in fact saved by faith through grace, how were the people that actually saw Jesus saved? I've had several people tell me that if God popped down and said, "Hey, it's me God", then we wouldn't be believing on faith anymore, but believing because of actually having seen God.
You'd think it'd be so simple?

One thing I've found is that the most profound and amazing things in this life are often taken for granted, or downright scoffed at by the majority of people. When it comes to miracles, if you were to see one, I'm certain it would take a great deal of faith to believe that it was actually a miracle. But then, that's the basis of analytic reasoning. Regardless of how many filters of experimentation you put something miraculous through, if it has no rational basis in the natural world, it would never be provable.

How long have neurophysiologists been trying to prove that sentience exists?
 
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Robinsegg

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HoustonHorn said:
Ok, I missed the point a little.

But, we're told that we have to have faith to be saved - by faith through grace. Don't you think it takes a lot more faith to believe not having seen the real thing?

And since the original posting wasn't a question, I've got one.

If we are in fact saved by faith through grace, how were the people that actually saw Jesus saved? I've had several people tell me that if God popped down and said, "Hey, it's me God", then we wouldn't be believing on faith anymore, but believing because of actually having seen God.
These people saw Christ, yes. However, they still had to have faith that Christ was who He was. There were many who saw the same miracles and wonders, yet never believed. Just as the Israelites had to believe despite having passed through the sea on dry land, the early Christians had to believe despite having seen the miracles.
Rachel
 
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cobweb

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two words:

David Koresh

While I do believe that Christianity is true... this particular argument falls a bit short.

Just because people are willing to die for something doesn't automatically make it true. It just means that they believe it to be true.
 
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intricatic

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frostymama said:
two words:

David Koresh

While I do believe that Christianity is true... this particular argument falls a bit short.

Just because people are willing to die for something doesn't automatically make it true. It just means that they believe it to be true.
David Koresh did not spend time with Christ and witness His resurrection.

At the risk of offending any possible Branch Davidians in the audience today, but have you read their doctrine of faith? :)
 
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cobweb

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intricatic said:
David Koresh did not spend time with Christ and witness His resurrection.

At the risk of offending any possible Branch Davidians in the audience today, but have you read their doctrine of faith? :)

I think you might be misunderstanding my point.

The people who lived with David Koresh were willing to die for his cause. That doesn't make their beliefs about him true.
 
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HoustonHorn

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Didn't Koresh believe himself to be the Messiah? If that's true, and I'm sure somebody will correct me if it's not, then his followers were in the exact same position as Jesus' apostles - they dies for what they believed in and had met the one they believed in.

The people in Roman times were killed for something they merely believed with no substantiating evidence. The Islamic bombers in the Sept.. 11th attack were doing likewise.
Aside from the Bible, what is your "substantiating evidence"?
 
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intricatic

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frostymama said:
I think you might be misunderstanding my point.

The people who lived with David Koresh were willing to die for his cause. That doesn't make their beliefs about him true.
No, I understand your point. :D

The thread was about the twelve apostles who lived with Christ, witnessed his crucifixion and resurrection, and were martyred for spreading this message and gospel. This is different from a group of people who follow a twisted faith that lacks substantiation.
 
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intricatic

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HoustonHorn said:
Didn't Koresh believe himself to be the Messiah? If that's true, and I'm sure somebody will correct me if it's not, then his followers were in the exact same position as Jesus' apostles - they dies for what they believed in and had met the one they believed in.
Seeing their Messiah die and rise from the dead != Seeing their messiah die.

Aside from the Bible, what is your "substantiating evidence"?
Very complex question. I can simplify it to: The things I've seen in my life, both before and after coming to Christ, and many of the things I've seen in nature work well when examined through a parabolic reflection of the Bible. This was enough; further, the alteration to who I am that has occurred since originally accepting Christ.
 
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a1000smiles

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frostymama said:
I think you might be misunderstanding my point.

The people who lived with David Koresh were willing to die for his cause. That doesn't make their beliefs about him true.

you are right, that is true... but he did not come back from the dead did he? also it wasnt just those 11, in the Bible it says that Jesus appeared to more than 500 people after he came back from the dead...and that most of them were still alive. If anyone wanted to verify if what the disciples spoke was the truth or not they could go ask these people and if it was false, the claim that Jesus indeed rose up would be dead before it even started. Also these disciples didnt preach in remote places, they preached in Jerusalem which is like ancient time Manhatten where all this ordeal with Jesus took place, where people who worshipped him and hated him lives, place where the religious leaders who had him killed in the first place also lived. If he was indeed dead, they could just cart the body into the middle of the town. Or if the the disciples had indeed stolen the body, they knew he was dead, they would not so confidently talk of these 500 and other people they mention in the Bible by name. Now days people can get away with these things, put yourself in THEIR shoes, its pretty impossible for such things to go unchecked and for the people to go unpunished. Also tests have shown that it is hard for 1 person to die for something they know to be false, let alone 11. Not including ofcourse the MANY MANY first Christians and their children who have been around a few decades after Jesus' death. This is why the Jesus case is SO UNIQUE.

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15 :6)
God Bless =)
 
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HoustonHorn

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Very complex question. I can simplify it to: The things I've seen in my life, both before and after coming to Christ, and many of the things I've seen in nature work well when examined through a parabolic reflection of the Bible. This was enough; further, the alteration to who I am that has occurred since originally accepting Christ.
Thank you, I like that answer a lot.

But why does nature working well require the Christian God to have been behind it? Every religion has their own creation story. Heck, even atheism has a creation story of sorts.

Also tests have shown that it is hard for 1 person to die for something they know to be false, let alone 11.
Please provide reference for these "tests".
 
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intricatic

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HoustonHorn said:
Thank you, I like that answer a lot.

But why does nature working well require the Christian God to have been behind it? Every religion has their own creation story. Heck, even atheism has a creation story of sorts.
Oh, I apologize for not clarifying that.

.....and many of the things I've seen in nature work well when examined through a parabolic reflection of the Bible.....

Where other religions do not work well with this material understanding. I'm not talking about creation, per se, as I am aware that I have never seen creation except in a very crude parabolic way. I mean how the world works, the systems and structures that comprise social sciences like psychology, sociology, etc... And how it relates to social dynamics in animal life.

Note: Atheism does not have a creation story. It has a theory of the method behind creation.
 
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