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Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.
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Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.They speech doth betray thy ignorance of Scriptural language.
Again, it's not about aion, it's about aionios.
Among the Jews In Israel 800 years +/- before Christ there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which the Jews called both Ge Hinnom and Sheol, which was written in the 225 BC LXX and the N.T. as Gehenna and Hades. See this article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.There is no Scripture that supports it. It's just another of the pagan doctrines that have been added to Christianity over the centuries. In Scripture the word hell is the grave. It's not a place of eternal torment. Translators have written this doctrine into the Bible by translating the Greek word aion as eternal rather than as age as it should be. About all anyone can give from Scriputre will be misunderstood passages out of context. God said through Ezekiel, ' the soul that sins shall die'. The apostle Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death'. Simple straight forward passages, nothing twisted or convoluted to try and make the Bible say something else.
Now the other shoe.No, on the contrary. I've shown clearly that aion cannot mean eternal. This is really simple. Just explain how something that is eternal can end. If you can do that the problem is solved. However, you can't do that because the very definition of eternal is unending. As I said, aion cannot mean eternal, no matter how loudly you yell. We have plain statements of Scripture from Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles all speaking of the end of the aion. There's no interpretation needed, they are plain statements. As I said, we can't "reason" away what Jesus said. You're simple trying to use inference to prove your point. However, as I said, they are plain statements. No interpretation necessary.
That is incorrect. Run and ran are both verbs. However, aion is a noun and aionios is an adverb. Neither nouns nor adjectives have tenses.Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.
I have done a word study of 24 vss. All you have done is say "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh." If what I said was wrong Jesus could not have said as He did twice "aionios life" means "shall not perish."It's interesting that you keep mentioning opinions, as that's what you've given. You really don't believe a history book is verifiable evidence do you? What verifiable evidence have you presented? You've given inferences that you've drawn from Scripture, but they're only evidence if you understand them correctly. And, as I've shown from Luke 1 you don't understand them correctly.
You're methodology, pitting Scripture against Scripture is flawed. That's not how one comes to a proper understanding of Scripture.
As far as "cedible" evidence, as I've pointed out in the past, you only accept evidence that you agree with, thus nothing is credible. Take for instance our past conversation where you insisted that the Jewish Encyclopedia was credible evidence. However when I used the Jewish Encyclopedia to prove a point you disagreed with you dismissed it. Suddenly it wasn't credible evidence. So, it would seem the only credible evidence is that which you post. Anything from others isn't credible.
I have done a word study of 24 vss. Your argument from Luke does NOT disprove what I said. All you have done is say "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh." If what I said was wrong Jesus could not have said, as He did three times, "aionios zoe"/eternal life" means "shall not perish." John 3:15-16, John 10:28.It's interesting that you keep mentioning opinions, as that's what you've given. You really don't believe a history book is verifiable evidence do you? What verifiable evidence have you presented? You've given inferences that you've drawn from Scripture, but they're only evidence if you understand them correctly. And, as I've shown from Luke 1 you don't understand them correctly.
You're methodology, pitting Scripture against Scripture is flawed. That's not how one comes to a proper understanding of Scripture.
As far as "cedible" evidence, as I've pointed out in the past, you only accept evidence that you agree with, thus nothing is credible. Take for instance our past conversation where you insisted that the Jewish Encyclopedia was credible evidence. However when I used the Jewish Encyclopedia to prove a point you disagreed with you dismissed it. Suddenly it wasn't credible evidence. So, it would seem the only credible evidence is that which you post. Anything from others isn't credible.
Was Jesus lying?The idea that the wicked are tormented forever, is not only not a Biblical concepted. It's based on a false doctrine. The source of the eternal torment doctrine is the false "Immortal Soul" doctrine. The idea that man has a soul that lives on after death is not a Biblical one. It is a pagan one. It was believed by most pagan nations and it was also the beliefs of the Greeks in Jesus' day. The majority view in Greek Philosophy was that the flesh was evil and that the goal of man was to escape the flesh and have the "soul" ascend into the heavens. This is the idea that eventually got merged into Christianity. However, it is not the teaching of Scripture. Because this doctrine says that man lives on after death the wicked will live on after death. Well, the wicked have to go somewhere. Thus we have the birth of eternal hell and eternal torment.
Again, as I said to Clare, just because the two are juxtaposed doesn't necessitate that aionios mean eternal. I've given you several passages that show plainly and unequivocally that aion cannot mean eternal. You made no attempt whatsoever to try to explain how those passages could be understood differently. I've asked you to show a passage where someone says aionios means eternal. You haven't. That's because there is none. SI have done a word study of 24 vss. All you have done is say "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh." If what I said was wrong Jesus could not have said as He did twice "aionios life" means "shall not perish."
John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.And as I have said "aionios" is an adjective it cannot be translated as "age" or any combination of words containing "age."
No, Jesus isn't lying. You're just misunderstanding His words. Those on the left will go into age enduring punishment. There's nothing eternal here.Was Jesus lying?
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Textarchive.org
EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
It's not incorrect. Ran and run are both forms of the same word. Aion and aionos are both forms of the same word. They don't change meaning they just change spelling. If I say, I will run, or I say, I ran, the action is the same. The only difference is the time when the action happened.That is incorrect. Run and ran are both verbs. However, aion is a noun and aionios is an adverb. Neither nouns nor adjectives have tenses.
Which affects its timing.Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.
No, Paul doesn't define it as enteral. The translators define it as eternal. You're trying to give your argument a false sense of authority. nowhere does Paul state that aionios means eternal.Now the other shoe.
Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [21] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 18 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[22]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[23]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[24]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[25]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
With ran and run, yes. In the case of aion which is a noun and aionios, which is an adjective it's a little different. It's more like spirit and spiritual. An adjective gives qualities of the noun it modifies. For instance, spiritual gives qualities of the spirit. if someone is said to be spiritual, they are said to have qualities of the spirit. So, aionios would be to have qualities of the age.Which affects its timing.
Not in the NT, where "spiritual" is always of the Holy Spirit.With ran and run, yes. In the case of aion which is a noun and aionios, which is an adjective it's a little different. It's more like spirit and spiritual. An adjective gives qualities of the noun it modifies. For instance, spiritual gives qualities of the spirit. if someone is said to be spiritual, they are said to have qualities of the spirit. So, aionios would be to have qualities of the age.
I 1 Cor 3 Paul speaks of people being spiritual.Not in the NT, where "spiritual" is always of the Holy Spirit.
So eternal God means God has the qualities of the age?
What does that mean?
Yes, characteristics of the Holy Spirit rather than of the world.I 1 Cor 3 Paul speaks of people being spiritual.
So aionios God has the qualities of the age?You say the eternal God but the Scripture says the aionios God.
It's explained in post 138Yes, characteristics of the Holy Spirit rather than of the world.
So aionios God has the qualities of the age?
What does that mean?
And the aionios kingdom (2 Peter 1:11), which is without end (Lke1:33),
the aionios life received through faith (John 3:16), whom shall never perish (Jn 10:28),
the aionios resurrection body (2 Co 5:1), which is immortal (1 Co 15:53), and in which the life of Jn 3:16 will be finally realized (Mt 25:46; Tit 1:2),
the aionios sin that will never be forgiven (Mark 3:29),
the aionios judgment of God, from which there is no appeal (Heb 6:2),
the aionios fire which is one of the instruments of that judgment (Mt 18:8; Mt 25:41, Jude 7), which fire is unquenchable (Mk 9:43)?
What do these aionios things mean in terms of duration?
They are of the same root. They do not mean the same thing.Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.
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