Why would God create a flawed creation?

[thepromiseofgrace]

So you don't have any problem calling your god "good" when he could have created the world without suffering?

Because that doesn't jive with any definition of "good" that I would accept. What kind of mental gymnastics must someone perform to come up with the conclusion that this universe was created by an omnibenevolent, omnipotent god...

are you always good, have you hurt anyone?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

So you don't have any problem calling your god "good" when he could have created the world without suffering?

Because that doesn't jive with any definition of "good" that I would accept. What kind of mental gymnastics must someone perform to come up with the conclusion that this universe was created by an omnibenevolent, omnipotent god...

See the problem with people that do not believe in God is that they do not have the spiritual element of God, nor do they understand it.

Almost every one of the people I've talked with, like yourself are looking to all of the outside things to reason who and what God is or is not.

The PROBLEM is that God has a spiritual component that you guys do not understand, so my answer to you is that I have nothing to prove to you about God.

You are the one who does not know about God. Look at the spiritual side and understand it, then we will talk again. Right now you are looking at a black and white photo and my photo is color. It's so much greater in color than black and white.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

are you always good, have you hurt anyone?

Yes, I have hurt people - in relatively minor ways. But I could be existing in a universe where I have the same revulsion for the types of actions that caused others pain that I have for, say, child molestation or murder. Those are two things I would never ever do. If we all lived in that universe, then we'd all have free will (since I have free will in regards to child molestation), but would not cause any suffering to each other.

That's the kind of universe that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god should be creating.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

See the problem with people that do not believe in God is that they do not have the spiritual element of God, nor do they understand it.

Almost every one of the people I've talked with, like yourself are looking to all of the outside things to reason who and what God is or is not.

The PROBLEM is that God has a spiritual component that you guys do not understand, so my answer to you is that I have nothing to prove to you about God.

You are the one who does not know about God. Look at the spiritual side and understand it, then we will talk again. Right now you are looking at a black and white photo and my photo is color. It's so much greater in color than black and white.

I was a Christian for a long time.

And you didn't answer my question, which was "Do have a problem with calling your god "good", when he could have created the world without suffering?"

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Yes, I have hurt people - in relatively minor ways. But I could be existing in a universe where I have the same revulsion for the types of actions that caused others pain that I have for, say, child molestation or murder. Those are two things I would never ever do. If we all lived in that universe, then we'd all have free will (since I have free will in regards to child molestation), but would not cause any suffering to each other.

That's the kind of universe that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god should be creating.

relative minor ways but if you have broken one law you have broken them all, so by the God you would like you would have been wiped out, so you couldn't hurt anyone or do any wrong.

 

[Messy]

Yes, I have hurt people - in relatively minor ways. But I could be existing in a universe where I have the same revulsion for the types of actions that caused others pain that I have for, say, child molestation or murder. Those are two things I would never ever do. If we all lived in that universe, then we'd all have free will (since I have free will in regards to child molestation), but would not cause any suffering to each other.

That's the kind of universe that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god should be creating.

You mean with a little bit of imperfection and free will in it. Adam and Eve only ate fruit, they only didn't want to obey God and make up their mind themselves and be independant from Him, they didn't kill anyone or lie or steal, but their son got a bit worse and killed his brother. A little bit of imperfection and deciding for yourself invites the devil and goes from bad to worse. It can only be totally perfect with no suffering or the other extreme.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

relative minor ways but if you have broken one law you have broken them all, so by the God you would like you would have been wiped out, so you couldn't hurt anyone or do any wrong.

Noooooo, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that if the universe was created in the way I described in my last post, I wouldn't have hurt anyone to begin with. No one would. There's no "wiping out" necessary.

And the whole "broke one law broke them all" tenet is something that some Christians believe, but that doesn't describe what everyone believes a god would proclaim.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Noooooo, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that if the universe was created in the way I described in my last post, I wouldn't have hurt anyone to begin with. No one would. There's no "wiping out" necessary.

And the whole "broke one law broke them all" tenet is something that some Christians believe, but that doesn't describe what everyone believes a god would proclaim.

oh so you think God should eradicate certain levels of wrong doing, someone who's a little bit abusive with their words God can create but someone who is physically violent should never have been created.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You mean with a little bit of imperfection and free will in it. Adam and Eve only ate fruit, they only didn't want to obey God and make up their mind themselves and be independant from Him, they didn't kill anyone or lie or steal, but their son got a bit worse and killed his brother. A little bit of imperfection and deciding for yourself invites the devil and goes from bad to worse. It can only be totally perfect with no suffering or the other extreme.

Nooooo, that's not what I mean.

I mean a universe where we have free will and do not cause suffering to each other.

If you want to use the Christian example, your god could have set up a world in which Cain would never use his free will to kill Abel. He would have the choice of course, but the idea would be so repugnant that he would never consider it.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

oh so you think God should eradicate certain levels of wrong doing, someone who's a little bit abusive with their words God can create but someone who is physically violent should never have been created.

Nooooo, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that a god could have created a universe in which people don't cause suffering. But didn't. Leading me to conclude that if there is an omnipotent god, this god desires our suffering since it could have been done away with.

I'm not saying anything at all about this universe.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Nooooo, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that a god could have created a universe in which people don't cause suffering. But didn't. Leading me to conclude that if there is an omnipotent god, this god desires our suffering since it could have been done away with.

I'm not saying anything at all about this universe.

so you just wanted a perfect planet of people that just get on.
i take it you are against free will?
Imagine the tv just one channel, imagine the sports, well there couldn't be any in case we fell out, music would be the same.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

so you just wanted a perfect planet of people that just get on.
i take it you are against free will?
Imagine the tv just one channel, imagine the sports, well there couldn't be any in case we fell out, music would be the same.

I've already shown how free will is compatible with a universe in which we choose not to cause suffering.

I have no idea what TV, sports or music have to do with anything. My universe doesn't disallow any of those things.

 

[Viren]

With pain comes strength.
With suffering comes perseverance.
Which leads to the antidote which is God.

There is a reason for everything.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

I've already shown how free will is compatible with a universe in which we choose not to cause suffering.

I have no idea what TV, sports or music have to do with anything. My universe doesn't disallow any of those things.

yes it does because we can fall out over anything, colour of hair, skin, beliefs, soccer team.

so the world would have to be very grey indeed.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

With pain comes strength.
With suffering comes perseverance.
Which leads to the antidote which is God.

There is a reason for everything.

amen life is God's threshing floor to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

yes it does because we can fall out over anything, colour of hair, skin, beliefs, soccer team.

so the world would have to be very grey indeed.

Noooo, you're still not getting it.

There would be no "falling out". Why? Because we wouldn't want to do that. Like I keep saying, the idea of causing any suffering to each other would be abhorrent to each and every one of us. So while we would have the choice to cause suffering, we wouldn't.

Free will. No suffering. It's simple.

 

[Dave Ellis]

No He can't just do what He wants here. God can't do anything on earth unless His people pray. He wants to heal everyone, but He needs His people to step out and heal people in His Name and someone wanting to receive His healing.

Interesting.... I've never seen a Christian argue that god wasn't all powerful.

Anyway, how do you know this about him?

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Noooo, you're still not getting it.

There would be no "falling out". Why? Because we wouldn't want to do that. Like I keep saying, the idea of causing any suffering to each other would be abhorrent to each and every one of us. So while we would have the choice to cause suffering, we wouldn't.

Free will. No suffering. It's simple.

so if we wouldn't want to do that why do we now, we have free will, we fall out, we kill, we destroy things.

if we could use free will and not fall out we can live our lives, not hurt , trust in God and spend eternity with God.

 

[Dave Ellis]

A day doesn't Always mean literal that day, there are more examples of that in the Bible, like grass that dies in the evening, I've never seen grass come up in the morning and die that same evening, it's a way of speaking.

However, within the book that we're taking these quotes from (genesis) it speaks of days quite a lot, and it's written in a way that makes you think they're talking about literal days.

We have to take it as written unless we have a good reason to assume metaphor, what's your good reason to support that idea?

Because now they sinned and had that nature of the devil also in them. Living in that state forever would have made them like demons. It was protection, so Jesus could bear their sins and they could get His nature again and be reconciled.

Again, this is post-hoc rationalization. The concept of Satan and demons didn't exist when Genesis was written, so that can not be what the author originally meant.

 

[Viren]

amen life is God's threshing floor to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I am full of chaff.