Why would God create a flawed creation?

[TLK Valentine]

God is proud and bad and why do I never hear someone complain about the devil? I guess you never met either one of them.

The Devil's just an employee -- we're more interested in his boss.

If God was so proud how could Jesus be humble and how could there be humble people? Suppose He was proud and made an evil devil and had it all set up and wanted us to suffer, that would make Him evil.

You're catching on...

Someone who is evil can't even think of creating an innocent kid, that's impossible.

You think an evil person can't do something good... knowing it'll benefit him in the long run?

 

[Colter]

To be specific, he said that they would die the day they ate of the tree. They didn't.



The situation with Adam and Eve is quite different because they lacked knowledge of good and evil. How then did they know that they were sinning?

The crafty beast knew that they had been told NOT to do what he was manipulating Eve into doing.

“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”​

The story was already quite old by the time it was written down. It had been carried by oral tradition.

 

[Messy]

God demands worship -- what happens when we don't give it to Him?

Where does He demand worship? Adam and Eve didn't have to worship Him, only obey Him to not get to know the devil.
He hates it when someone does that because he has to. You worship because you see how good He is and it takes the focus from yourself, so you don't become proud. God is the only One who can be worshipped without becoming proud.

“I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.

Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.
But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream.

 

[WoundedDeep]

That's not what the text says, however.

It is what it says. Death in the Bible mostly refers to spiritual death, or it can refer to both physical and spiritual death. Every Bible scholar will agree that there are two kinds of death (physical and spiritual) mentioned in the Bible, and both are simply called "death".

Which means little if they have no concept of evil.

It means a lot if they actually believed in God's words like you will believe in your parents when you were a toddler and they told you if you play with fire you will burn yourself. Do you have any concept of fire when you were a kid? I doubt so.

 

[Messy]

You think an evil person can't do something good... knowing it'll benefit him in the long run?

An evil person yes sure, because people are never totally evil. Even Hitler was nice to his dog. The devil was so stupid and evil, if he had been smart he wouldn't have killed Jesus.

 

[WoundedDeep]

You think an evil person can't do something good... knowing it'll benefit him in the long run?

This is almost laughable as much as insulting God. God receives nothing from us, and we can give nothing to Him. What "benefit" do you then propose that God will receive by doing something good? The fact is, absolutely nothing. To limit Him and His doings by such statements show the level of ignorance you have for His nature. He creates and does good only by what His nature dictates (which is good), not because He will receive or benefit from it.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It is what it says. Death in the Bible mostly refers to spiritual death, or it can refer to both physical and spiritual death. Every Bible scholar will agree that there are two kinds of death (physical and spiritual) mentioned in the Bible, and both are simply called "death".



It means a lot if they actually believed in God's words like you will believe in your parents when you were a toddler and they told you if you play with fire you will burn yourself. Do you have any concept of fire when you were a kid? I doubt so.

Even children have a more developed concept of good and evil than Adam and Eve would have, given that they were completely lacking in that area.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This is almost laughable as much as insulting God. God receives nothing from us, and we can give nothing to Him. What "benefit" do you then propose that God will receive by doing something good? The fact is, absolutely nothing. To limit Him and His doings by such statements show the level of ignorance you have for His nature. He creates and does good only by what His nature dictates (which is good), not because He will receive or benefit from it.

So God cannot do evil?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Even children have a more developed concept of good and evil than Adam and Eve would have, given that they were completely lacking in that area.

The analogy I gave was simply used to show that faith was all that was necessary to keep Adam and Eve from sinning, and they certainly can have faith. What has that got to do with children's concept of good and evil?

 

[WoundedDeep]

So God cannot do evil?

No, God cannot do evil in the form of sin. His nature is unalterably sinless.

FYI, death is the consequence of sin, therefore do not ascribe death as the same form of evil as sin itself. They are not the same kind of evil.

 

[Messy]

So God cannot do evil?

No of course not. Jesus is God, He was sinless, innocent, He got killed. He came to show who the Father is. If He wasn't sinless, we couldn't be saved.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, God cannot do evil in the form of sin. His nature is unalterably sinless.

Then aren't you limiting what he can do, which is exactly what you reprimanded TLK Valentine for doing?

To limit Him and His doings by such statements show the level of ignorance you have for His nature.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No of course not. Jesus is God, He was sinless, innocent, He got killed. He came to show who the Father is. If He wasn't sinless, we couldn't be saved.

Then how he is omnipotent if he cannot do something that us mere mortals can?

 

[Messy]

Then how he is omnipotent if he cannot do something that us mere mortals can?

Well if you wouldn't call that omnipotent, then you can say creation is flawed because He has a flaw: He can't sin. I don't believe He could have known that an angel would rebel and invent sin. I don't see it as a flaw though, but that's perfect.

 

[TLK Valentine]

This is almost laughable as much as insulting God. God receives nothing from us, and we can give nothing to Him.

Well, he certainly receives nothing form me, and I give nothing to Him.

Win-win, right?

What "benefit" do you then propose that God will receive by doing something good?

The undying praise from billions of sycophants? Some folks are into that sort of thing...

When Caesare Borgia took over a province, he would put the cruelest sociopath he knew in charge, ordering him to do whatever was necessary (or whatever he fely like) to maintain order.

At some point, Borgia would visit his province, and "rescue" the people from the cruel tyrant in charge... by executing the tyrant.

Guess who the hero is?

The fact is, absolutely nothing. To limit Him and His doings by such statements show the level of ignorance you have for His nature. He creates and does good only by what His nature dictates (which is good), not because He will receive or benefit from it.

So God is only one thing and is only capable of one thing, and I'm the one limiting Him?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well if you wouldn't call that omnipotent, then you can say creation is flawed because He has a flaw: He can't sin. I don't believe He could have known that an angel would rebel and invent sin. I don't see it as a flaw though, but that's perfect.

If he couldn't have known that, then he falls short of omniscience. If he did know it but couldn't have prevented it, then he falls short of omnipotence.

 

[Messy]

The undying praise from billions of sycophants? Some folks are into that sort of thing...

Yes, the devil loves it and he loves to tell people that God is like him. Don't worship Him, worship me, I'm much better. Oh no of course he wouldn't say that, he'll say: do as you like. You're independant. Oh hey, he's a lyer and a murderer. Proofs that Genesis really happened, he still uses the same old lie.

 

[Messy]

If he couldn't have known that, then he falls short of omniscience. If he did know it but couldn't have prevented it, then he falls short of omnipotence.

Could be, so what?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Then aren't you limiting what he can do, which is exactly what you reprimanded TLK Valentine for doing?

Doing only what your nature dictates is by no means a limitation, it means staying true to who you are. Did you even know what "limitation" I am talking about when I say TLK limits God?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Could be, so what?

You tell me. It's your theology we're discussing after-all.