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Why would God create a flawed creation?

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Dave Ellis

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You are unaware of biblical teachings. death is more than the grave. Death is in sin.

That's actually not a biblical teaching, that's theology that was made up to cover the holes in what the bible actually says.

It is not human nature to disobey, that is an excuse to not take responsibility for yourself. Like a parent who blames the teacher for their childs failing grade.

If it's not in human nature to disobey, then why did they disobey?

God does not live to please us, we live to please God.

I live to experience life and all it has to offer, not to please some celestial being I have no evidence for.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Lol a six year old knows better.

A very spoiled generation will be produced if we intercept any consequences of their choices..

I wonder, do we also blame our parents for every time we disobeyed?

But that's just it.... You are the one making excuses for God's behaviour in genesis. He should be held accountable for His flawed creation. Not us.

We didn't set out to create a universe and if we did, we'd be directly responsible for any outcome within that universe.

That is, if He in fact does exist.
 
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bhsmte

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But that's just it.... You are the one making excuses for God's behaviour in genesis. He should be held accountable for His flawed creation. Not us.

We didn't set out to create a universe and if we did, we'd be directly responsible for any outcome within that universe.

That is, if He in fact does exist.

A good analogy is:

Was Ford responsible for the engineering flaws in regards to why the Ford Pinto had a tendency to blow up with rear end collisions? Or was it one of the guys on the assembly line putting the car together?
 
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kristina411

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Genesis 3:12-13 Then the man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." 13 And the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
Bold text not in original bible.
Notice how Adam, when being confronted with his transgression, attempted to blame God and Eve for eating? How Eve tried to blame the serpent?
 
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Messy

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He knew it would happen (or could happen), didn't want it to be that way, yet still went ahead and planted the tree with the forbidden fruit that would inevitably lead to a fallen world?

How is it not His fault again?

The angels had no tree, everything was created perfect, yet 1/3 fell in sin. Maybe without a tree and perfect people who knew everything the same would have happened eventually. But they couldn't have been saved then I think if they invented sin themselves.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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A good analogy is:

Was Ford responsible for the engineering flaws in regards to why the Ford Pinto had a tendency to blow up with rear end collisions? Or was it one of the guys on the assembly line putting the car together?

Well... I would blame the person who buys a Ford in the first place. ^_^

I kid, I kid! That is a perfect example. I like to use the analogy of a scientist that creates a disobedient robot. It's not the robots fault it was programmed a certain way.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Genesis 3:12-13 Then the man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." 13 And the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
Bold text not in original bible.
Notice how Adam, when being confronted with his transgression, attempted to blame God and Eve for eating? How Eve tried to blame the serpent?

That's because it was their fault. The serpent's for being a deceitful jerk and God's for allowing all this to happen despite it not being a part of the original plan.

Unless it was part of the original plan and God was being disingenuous when he expected them to follow impossible orders He knew they couldn't.

Either way you slice it, God is ultimately responsible for any shortcomings in His creation. Not us. We did not decide to create a universe, we were cast into this existence against any will we might have had.
 
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Messy

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That's because it was their fault. The serpent's for being a deceitful jerk and God's for allowing ask this to happen despite it not being a part of the original plan.

Unless it was part of the original plan and God was being disingenuous when he expected them to follow impossible orders He knew they couldn't.

Either way you slice it, God is ultimately responsible for any shortcomings in His creation. Not us. We did not decide to create a universe, we were cast into this existence against any will we might have had.

Yes I think you're right. Gonna kill my annoying neighbour now who complains about the kids laughing too hard.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Yes I think you're right. Gonna kill my annoying neighbour now who complains about the kids laughing too hard.

I'm not sure how that flows from what I said but... ok.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Lol a six year old knows better.

Some do, some don't. Some six year olds do things that wind up causing personal injuries due to their own ignorance of how the world works.

A very spoiled generation will be produced if we intercept any consequences of their choices..

Sure, however parents also have responsibilities and should face consequences for not living up to those responsibilities.

If a parent is fully aware their kid is about to drown in the backyard pool, and they have the ability to save them then they have a responsibility to act. If they don't run out and save the kid, the parent is at least responsible for their neglect, and at the very least partially responsible for the death.

If the parent engineered the situation knowing in advance that it was inevitable that the kid would end up drowning in the pool, then the parent becomes fully responsible for any harm that comes to the kid.

The second paragraph applies to God and creation.

I wonder, do we also blame our parents for every time we disobeyed?

There's a big difference between disobeying your parent, and the parent neglecting their parental duties towards you.

Parents still have a responsibility to prevent you from being put into life threatening situations if they can be reasonably avoided.

If your God is omniscient, then he knew the serpent was trying to deceive Eve, and that they intended to eat the fruit. At any point he could have stepped in (as any good parent has a responsibility to do). Instead he decided to let the situation play out, then take out vengeance on everyone involved.

Why does he get to evade his responsibility?
 
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Dave Ellis

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The angels had no tree, everything was created perfect, yet 1/3 fell in sin. Maybe without a tree and perfect people who knew everything the same would have happened eventually. But they couldn't have been saved then I think if they invented sin themselves.

If everything was created perfect, then God must have intended for the fall of man to happen.

Perfection means it's flawless. If Adam and Eve eating the fruit was a flaw, then the creation contained at least one flaw and could not have been perfect.

So either we are still in a perfect creation and God wants all the death and misery in the world to happen, or the creation was flawed from the start. Those are the only two options in Christian theology.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Something is perfect, if the potential for perfection is simply there. (selah)

I think you are mistaking the necessity for potential, for an actuality that is non-existent even for God (selah)



No, something is perfect if it is perfect.... it's a tautology.

If something merely has the potential to become perfect, that means it is not yet perfect and therefore was not created perfect.
 
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Gottservant

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No, something is perfect if it is perfect.... it's a tautology.

If something merely has the potential to become perfect, that means it is not yet perfect and therefore was not created perfect.

you are saying your "semantics" has potential, therefore its perfect

that is my point
 
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