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Why would God create a flawed creation?

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Dave Ellis

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That perception stems from lack of understanding, and in many ways, I also don't understand fully. But ultimately we all know from observation that there is good and evil in this world and history are filled with people from all walks of life, including philosophers, who through careful study and seeking of uncompromising truth, come to the realization of a single Creator who is the source of life and everything good and revere Him.


If our poor perception stems from a lack of understanding, how did you get the information you're using to back your assertions in this post?

Some of the greatest philosophers in history were polytheists (i.e. the ancient greeks) others were atheists. They didn't necessarily reach the conclusion of a single creator god, much less your god.
 
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Dave Ellis

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No one knows what happens in heaven, but you totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. During our time on earth, the biggest choices with eternal consequences are to choose for God or against Him. Once that choice is made, it is made once and for all. You will no longer need to make that choice once sin is taken away, and certainly it makes no sense for one issue of for God or against God to forever be "in the process of choosing".

That doesn't address my point though.... The point was you can't change your mind once you get to heaven, which means you effectively become a robot. At least, you become a robot based on your prior assertion that we require free will on earth, otherwise we are robots.

Essentially, if we are all destined to become robots in heaven, then why not create us all as robots on earth? At least that way we haven't lost anything, and nobody would wind up in hell.

Do I then imply there are no choosing in heaven? No, I never said that. All I am saying is the choice of good and evil stops once God's judgment comes - that is one single issue I'm talking about.

Can you choose to reject god once you've gotten to heaven?

Don't we as humans now make choices every single day, such as going to which university, taking up which job? Once we choose a university and graduate from it, do we still continue to choose universities?

Some people do, some people don't like the program they're in at one university and make a change.

Does that now make us robots? No, because choosing university is only a single issue in our life. God intended to make us eternal beings, but choosing good and evil is the very first step in His plan for us. We have to make a decision and then move onto the next step God plans for us. Does it make sense for us to forever be stuck in the first step of choosing good and evil?

How do you know what god's plan is? I thought you said we aren't privy to that information?

And we're only talking about the issue of choosing god or not. God could have hardwired you to choose him, while keeping your decision making processes intact in every other field. Yet, by that argument Christians would state we become robots. I would argue that point, our free will would still be intact, except we'd all choose god.
 
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WoundedDeep

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If our poor perception stems from a lack of understanding, how did you get the information you're using to back your assertions in this post?

Some of the greatest philosophers in history were polytheists (i.e. the ancient greeks) others were atheists. They didn't necessarily reach the conclusion of a single creator god, much less your god.

I did not get information, I am appealing to reason and common sense by explaining what I understand in laymen terms. It is your interest if you want to test what I say as true or false, I don't compel you in any way.

Not all great philosophers were theists, but I have certainly read from early writings of Christian apologists that there were philosophers who actually do believe in the existence of a single Creator and Almighty. Just because they did not acknowledge it as the God in the Bible doesn't mean He isn't the God of the Bible.
 
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WoundedDeep

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That doesn't address my point though.... The point was you can't change your mind once you get to heaven, which means you effectively become a robot. At least, you become a robot based on your prior assertion that we require free will on earth, otherwise we are robots.

Essentially, if we are all destined to become robots in heaven, then why not create us all as robots on earth? At least that way we haven't lost anything, and nobody would wind up in hell.

Why would you want to change your mind if you have firmly believed what you choose is right and good for yourself? A man who can never make a decision and hops in between options will never accomplish anything. I know exactly what you are trying to say, but do you not see that your understanding of what free will is makes us all indecisive kids who is forever going to be unstable and change our minds in the next moment? If you are a parent, wouldn't such a child be a headache to you? All of us grow up one day and we make choices without change of minds, that doesn't make us robots. Your understanding is deeply flawed if you think not being able to change our minds on something makes us void of free will or robotic.
 
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WoundedDeep

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Some people do, some people don't like the program they're in at one university and make a change.

Yes, but once you've graduated, you stop the process of choosing universities, don't you? Are you void of free will now? No, because choosing university is a STAGE in your life. The same reasoning applies to choosing acceptance or rejection of God's message of salvation. Think through carefully, it's not hard to understand I'm sure.

In addition, once a decision is made and carried out, you wouldn't be able to change your mind anyway. Does that make you void of free will? Of course not!

How do you know what god's plan is? I thought you said we aren't privy to that information?

I know because it is revealed to us through Jesus Christ and His Gospels. Those who are saved are meant to "put on immortality" and that makes us eternal beings. It can be read from any Bible you pick up.

And we're only talking about the issue of choosing god or not. God could have hardwired you to choose him, while keeping your decision making processes intact in every other field. Yet, by that argument Christians would state we become robots. I would argue that point, our free will would still be intact, except we'd all choose god.

Hardwiring is the same as programming, isn't it? If you are hardwired in even one way you are not a free will being. If you are a free will being, you should be allowed to make decision on every single issue concerning your life.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Of course other Christians find this explanation problematic by itself, taking it to mean polytheism.

Yes, that's a common misconception about Trinitarianism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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terryjohn

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All things are perfect, if they are as designed and fulfil a certain function. God could have created a more perfect world but in doing so it would be at the same time less perfect in achieving His purpose. All men are moral beings, some are different by degree and kind. Another is seen as imoral simply because we donot share the same desired ourcomes?
 
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Josheb

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Read your Bible. The answers are in there. I could approach the answer two ways. The goal, according to 1 Cor. 15-35-54 is the spiritual transformation of the physical body. This is, apparently, dependent on our life, death, and resurrection, and the latter is dependent on that of Christ. Within that process are the experience of grace, mercy, love, justice, etc. Creation is a process. We humans are in-process, so to speak. This makes sin a problem only for humans, not God. God doesn't like sin but sin isn't an obstacle to His plan of spiritual transformation of those who meet the criteria.

The second is a bit more problematic theologically, rationally because it has sin as something proactively planned, planned for, and expected to the point of being necessary. Unblessedly, that's the way most think of God, creation, and themselves. God's provision of Christ was contingent upon sin and that makes God's plan dependent on sin, and that makes God dependent on sin. The supposedly good, righteous, and sinless Law Maker has had to act lawlessly in creating sin. That's simply a contradiction. This model is argued, often unawares, whenever someone says the process of living, falling, and being redeemed teaches us forgiveness and love and that's why sin happened. It sounds reasonable and correct but it runs smack into the contradiction I just described.

the problem with the latter is thinking that the world must be dialectic in all regards. Joy can exist only in the context of sadness, love only in the context of apathy, acceptance only in the context of hatred. It's not true. Neither is it Biblical.

God made a good sinless world full of unrealized dialectic potential and the realization of certain probabilities (like sin) is an undesirable occurrence, but it's not an obstacle to God's plan. In the end, if you don't make it to the goal you will have no one but yourself to blame. You can shake your fist and decry God all you like but He laughs at such protests. You can expect compassion but compassion has been shown you even though you don't deserve it and aren't entitled to it. In the end the ultimate compassion will be shown those who acknowledged God. There's no compassion to be had for those who will not have it - how can anyone who denies it have it? Certainly a Buddhist can understand that.

And, btw, I've not read anything from you that leads me to read you as an "unorthodox thinker." Your complaints are centuries old, repeated ad nauseum by many a dissenter. They are clichéd, and ordinary. I'm going to leverage your Buddhism. It is normal for a person thusly confronted to do one of three things: minimize the critique, defend the self, or deny the reality. All three speak of attachment(s) that need to be discarded. The only correct enlightened response is to acknowledge the truth of the facts (it cannot be denied that you are not the first to make these complaints). So labeling yourself "unorthodox thinker" in this context is a complete misnomer. Enjoin the discrepancy and be free from the contradiction in more than just word.

Then understand that you clearly do not yet correctly understand the Christian paradigm. The question you asked, "Why would a compassionate and loving God create anyone in the first place, if he had the omniscient foreknowledge that even part of his creation would suffer hell?" is misguided and a symptom of the problem. A better question might be, "Why would knowing some would fail prevent God from creating at all?" So, when you realize that you've built your entire theology (or lack thereof) on a red herring I know (and you do to) the instantaneous somatic response you've just felt is the attachment-laden self rearing its ugly head in protest to protect itself from the truth.

You have an opportunity to be reconciled with God and enjoy all that such a relationship brings with it but you choose not to do so imaging there are legitimate intellectual obstacles to your doing so. You have an opportunity to be reconciled to God, to be relationally restored, to be transgressionally forgiven, to be spiritually regenerate and thereby die alive and you think the best response to that is, "Why would a compassionate and loving God create anyone in the first place, if he had the omniscient foreknowledge that even part of his creation would suffer hell?"

Please realize that response is neither Christian, Buddhist, or rational.

Repent. Change the way you think; change the way you live.
(apologies for the length of the post)
 
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variant

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I brought this question up in another thread recently. What really confuses me is that when God created Adam he was created to be the only one of his species. There was clearly no intention of creating a woman. Genesis says: "It is not good that the man should be alone. I shall make a helper suitable for him" *emphasis mine.

If Adam was created perfect, why is it not good that he should be alone? If he was created perfectly, he was created to be alone. Why would a flawless being require a helper? Isn't that in itself a flaw? There should be no need to create anything else.

Next, rather than create woman, God creates all of the animals. Each of which is "unsuitable" as a helper for man. Why wasn't the very first animal the perfect helper for Adam? Was it that pre-sin Adam was flawed or that God was unable to get it right in His first couple hundred million tries?

Finally, if God created Adam and Eve perfectly, how was it that the very first two flawlessly perfect flagship models of His creation were able to muck everything up so much? It seems calling Adam and Eve "flawless" is like continuing to credit the Titanic with being "unsinkable." Sure, the Titanic was unsinkable...up until it sank.

The story itself doesn't mention perfection.
 
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Messy

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If God was omniscient and omnipotent, then he wouldn't have knowingly created a flawed creation. However, creation is obviously flawed, so one of the following must be true:

1. While God is compassionate and loving, he is not omniscient (he could not see the results of his action), or
2. While God is compassionate and loving, he is not omnipotent (he could not create a perfect creation, or he did not have the power to sustain perfection in his creation), or
3. God is omniscient and omnipotent but uncompassionate and unloving (towards his creation he originated, dooming many to hell which he foreknew).

What saith ye?

1. He didn't know Lucifer would sin or knowing all does not implicate you can look in the future and then decide to not let it happen.
2. He can create a perfect universe, but free willed people you can only control by forcing them to obey and love you like a dictator which is against His Nature.

2.
 
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kristina411

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4. Humans can not even make an attempt at gaining Gods wisdom.

I put my marbles in basket number four.

And he did not create the world flawed, it became flawed after the fruit.
Why did He make man and woman "flawed"?He didn't, He made us in their image. Does it mean that they are flawed? No. It means that we are weak. They have the strength, and those who didn't joined the other army. We are weaker as we are mere humans.
So when it came time to eat the apple we did not have the knowledge or strength that the angels in heaven have.
Since we are weak, they ate from the tree and brought "flaw" into the world.

Because the world is flawed does not mean God wanted it to be that way, only that he knew it could or would be this way. But he loves us anyways!
 
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GoldenBoy89

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4. Humans can not even make an attempt at gaining Gods wisdom.

I put my marbles in basket number four.

And he did not create the world flawed, it became flawed after the fruit.
Why did He make man and woman "flawed"?He didn't, He made us in their image. Does it mean that they are flawed? No. It means that we are weak. They have the strength, and those who didn't joined the other army. We are weaker as we are mere humans.
So when it came time to eat the apple we did not have the knowledge or strength that the angels in heaven have.
Since we are weak, they ate from the tree and brought "flaw" into the world.

Because the world is flawed does not mean God wanted it to be that way, only that he knew it could or would be this way. But he loves us anyways!
He knew it would happen (or could happen), didn't want it to be that way, yet still went ahead and planted the tree with the forbidden fruit that would inevitably lead to a fallen world?

How is it not His fault again?
 
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kristina411

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He knew it would happen (or could happen), didn't want it to be that way, yet still went ahead and planted the tree with the forbidden fruit that would inevitably lead to a fallen world?

How is it not His fault again?

I'm not surprised. This generation wants to blame Him for their wrong doings.

If I tell my six year old not to touch the stove when its on or she will be burned, and if she still touches it, I suppose it is my fault because I turned the stove on in the first place?
 
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GoldenBoy89

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I'm not surprised. This generation wants to blame Him for their wrong doings.

If I tell my six year old not to touch the stove when its on or she will be burned, and if she still touches it, I suppose it is my fault because I turned the stove on in the first place?

If you made it impossible for her to avoid touching it and even made it enticing, yes I would put the blame squarely on you.
 
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kristina411

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If you made it impossible for her to avoid touching it and even made it enticing, yes I would put the blame squarely on you.

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Doesn't sound very "enticing" to me
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Doesn't sound very "enticing" to me

Why put it in the garden to begin with? Didn't he know that when you tell someone not to do something, it makes them want to even more? That's basic human nature...

Why allow a serpent to try and convince A & E to eat from the tree?

Also, God lied when he said they'd die the same day.
 
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kristina411

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Why put it in the garden to begin with? Didn't he know that when you tell someone not to do something, it makes them want to even more? That's basic human nature...

Why allow a serpent to try and convince A & E to eat from the tree?

Also, God lied when he said they'd die the same day.

You are unaware of biblical teachings. death is more than the grave. Death is in sin.

It is not human nature to disobey, that is an excuse to not take responsibility for yourself. Like a parent who blames the teacher for their childs failing grade.

God does not live to please us, we live to please God.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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It is not human nature to disobey, that is an excuse to not take responsibility for yourself.

Actually it is.... your own book has the perfect example of the failure of prohibition.

A&E had a simple rule... "Don't eat from this tree or you will die." What did they do? They ate from the tree they were specifically told not to. That's called disobedience and it seems to have come pretty naturally to them.

If it wasn't human nature to disobey, what on earth do we have laws and penalties for?
 
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Dave Ellis

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I'm not surprised. This generation wants to blame Him for their wrong doings.

If I tell my six year old not to touch the stove when its on or she will be burned, and if she still touches it, I suppose it is my fault because I turned the stove on in the first place?



If you left your child unsupervised by a hot stove, then yes, I'd say it is your responsibility if she touches the burner. You should have kept an eye on your kid, you know kids are curious and that she doesn't know any better.

That's what good parents do.
 
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