Why would God create a flawed creation?

PureTruth7 · Feb 18, 2015

God did not create things to be the way we see it now. He created a perfect world, perfect Earth. However, mankind chose to sin, and sin goes against God's love, so He must withdraw. And so, this world and humanity has been decaying and self-destructing ever since. There was no flaw in His design, no excuse for the existence of sin that originated in Satan. The fault is in Satan and in us. The only difference between us and Satan is that we have a chance for repentance and salvation, while Satan is doomed to eternal death very soon. After Jesus comes again(very soon now), sin will never be permitted to rise again, meaning, eternal perfection and righteousness and joy, peace, love, etc.

This questioning of God's wisdom is not wise. You have to learn to trust in Him and obey His 10 commandments, which teaches how to love God and one another. Read the Bible and pray every day.

TLK Valentine · Feb 18, 2015

PureTruth7 said:
God did not create things to be the way we see it now. He created a perfect world, perfect Earth. However, mankind chose to sin, and sin goes against God's love, so He must withdraw.

"Must"? Not hardly -- being omnipotent means no limits, and no limits means one "must" do nothing.

Withdrawal was a choice, not a necessity.

And so, this world and humanity has been decaying and self-destructing ever since. There was no flaw in His design, no excuse for the existence of sin that originated in Satan. The fault is in Satan and in us.

Sounds like Satan is the excuse.

The only difference between us and Satan is that we have a chance for repentance and salvation, while Satan is doomed to eternal death very soon.

So even if Satan chose to seek forgiveness, God would deny him? The one sinner who arguably needs it the most?

After Jesus comes again(very soon now), sin will never be permitted to rise again, meaning, eternal perfection and righteousness and joy, peace, love, etc.

But not free will. God gives us that great gift, only to take it away?

This questioning of God's wisdom is not wise.

And yet, we remain undaunted.

You have to learn to trust in Him and obey His 10 commandments, which teaches how to love God and one another. Read the Bible and pray every day.

Pass, thank you.

Dave Ellis · Feb 18, 2015

PureTruth7 said:
God did not create things to be the way we see it now. He created a perfect world, perfect Earth. However, mankind chose to sin, and sin goes against God's love, so He must withdraw. And so, this world and humanity has been decaying and self-destructing ever since. There was no flaw in His design, no excuse for the existence of sin that originated in Satan. The fault is in Satan and in us. The only difference between us and Satan is that we have a chance for repentance and salvation, while Satan is doomed to eternal death very soon. After Jesus comes again(very soon now), sin will never be permitted to rise again, meaning, eternal perfection and righteousness and joy, peace, love, etc.

This questioning of God's wisdom is not wise. You have to learn to trust in Him and obey His 10 commandments, which teaches how to love God and one another. Read the Bible and pray every day.

What you're describing is self contradictory.

Either he created a perfect world, which means the world that we have now was his design.

Or,

He created a flawed world that did not live up to his original plan.

You can't have it both ways.

Messy · Feb 19, 2015

netzarim said:
OK, so why was rebellion possible in heaven in ages past, and not in heaven now? What changed?

Jesus cleansed the heavens with His blood.

Gottservant · Feb 19, 2015

Dave Ellis said:
So it was it intended or not intended that the world would fall into sin?

If your god is omniscient, he must have had his plan, and he must have known how things were going to go based on his design.

For those that knew (their choice), he knew; for those that did not know (their lack of choice), he knew they would know later - for if one sins (in ignorance), all sin (in knowledge).

This is a completely coherent foreknowing of a creation, that was created before time so as to be able to choose - regardless.

What you are struggling with is that you feel as though your purity justifies your cross-examining of knowledge - which you presume God must have had -, when you are yet predicting nothing (that would exonerate you once knowledge was dead (in you - let the reader observe)).

If know someone is going to sin and do nothing, the only thing that exonerates you is if you continue to know that they sin (whether you do nothing or not).

Gottservant · Feb 19, 2015

Dave Ellis said:
Are we? So we can sin all we want to without any consequences?

You surely know I did not say that.

Are you saying freedom cancels consequences?

I don't think that follows?

Gottservant · Feb 19, 2015

Dave Ellis said:
That's nonsense, an omnibenevolent being by definition would not create a world that had the possibility of widespread suffering.

He also wouldn't ever create a place like hell (if you include hell in your theology).

What's wrong with creating a world with the possibility of suffering, if you create a place where the suffering dissipates? They cancel (at worst (liberate, at best))?

Is your problem that when you think of Heaven, the suffering does not cease immediately?

Or am I misreading you?

Gottservant · Feb 19, 2015

netzarim said:
OK, so why was rebellion possible in heaven in ages past, and not in heaven now? What changed?

The Devil was confronted in Heaven, by the Holy Spirit.

The Devil saw his evil and was disappointed, so he fell.

When he fell, the angels saw that he was plaguing God and began to fight with him - so the fall was complete.

That is why it is no longer possible to rebel, in Heaven (without the help of the Son of the Devil - who waits).

Gottservant · Feb 19, 2015

Dave Ellis said:
What you're describing is self contradictory.

It needs to be said, that the creation of time, cannot be understood, without patience (selah)

Either he created a perfect world, which means the world that we have now was his design.

To be perfect in principle, it need only have potential (in principle).

Or,

He created a flawed world that did not live up to his original plan.

The potential for sin, is not a flaw, if you warn against it - yes, that is stacking the cards, but the potential for freedom within the potential for Creation: is worth it

You can't have it both ways.

You are cunning in words, but I believe you have deceived yourself.

No one said God "has" Creation, just that He recognizes it. (selah)

TLK Valentine · Feb 19, 2015

Messy said:
Jesus cleansed the heavens with His blood.

Sounds icky -- but does it wash away free will?

Messy · Feb 19, 2015

TLK Valentine said:
Sounds icky -- but does it wash away free will?

The will to sin, yes. What is born from God can't sin.

Archaeopteryx · Feb 19, 2015

Messy said:
The will to sin, yes. What is born from God can't sin.

Then why not create a world without the will to sin in the first place?

Gottservant · Feb 19, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Then why not create a world without the will to sin in the first place?

Because then it would not be free?

Because there are degrees of sin and some are forgiveable?

Because not everyone that dies from sin, stays dead and curses God?

Archaeopteryx · Feb 19, 2015

Gottservant said:
Because then it would not be free?

Apparently that's not a problem because, in heaven, the will to sin is washed away anyway.

Gottservant · Feb 19, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Apparently that's not a problem because, in heaven, the will to sin is washed away anyway.

Yes, but its disappointing if the body dies for no reason - that's why we believe in Jesus because we a) remember that we have sinned and b) remember that we have been forgiven (when we are in Heaven).

A perfect world, therefore returns to the just position (for a world (before God)).

The just position, is better than the innocent. (selah)

Messy · Feb 19, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Then why not create a world without the will to sin in the first place?

I suppose that's impossible. I don't think He wanted all the suffering, warfare and His creation kill Him for fun.
https://books.google.nl/books?id=1D...Xasf7gvgH&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Archaeopteryx · Feb 19, 2015

Messy said:
I suppose that's impossible. I don't think He wanted all the suffering, warfare and His creation kill Him for fun.
https://books.google.nl/books?id=1D...Xasf7gvgH&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

If he didn't want it, then why did he create it the way he did? He knew exactly how it would unfold to the smallest detail.

Messy · Feb 19, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
If he didn't want it, then why did he create it the way he did? He knew exactly how it would unfold to the smallest detail.

I think this was the best and only way and He wanted to create people. I'm more like: If I get 5 kids and know that I can only get 5 at once of which two will become murderers, I think I wouldn't do it at all for the 3 nice kids, just no kids. He's not me.

Dave Ellis · Feb 19, 2015

Messy said:
Jesus cleansed the heavens with His blood.

That's a rather morbid thought.... What is it with you Christians and blood?

Dave Ellis · Feb 19, 2015

Gottservant said:
You surely know I did not say that.

Are you saying freedom cancels consequences?

I don't think that follows?

Freedom does entail that certain consequences don't exist though.

For example, if I say you are completely free to do anything you want to, however if you do anything I don't want you to do, I'll shoot you in the head, then you aren't really free.

Why would God create a flawed creation?

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