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Aren't you already doing that by assuming that Christianity = Calvinism when Calvin wasn't even born until 1509? That is nearly 1500 years AFTER Jesus lived.So, just make up my own interpretation as pathway to ultimate truth? That seems sensible... (not really)...
It's not that simple though is it? Of course I'd love to believe that there is some magical deity that will protect me while I'm alive, and when I die, let me live forever in some Happy La La Land for all eternity.
But how do you get from being a rational atheist to being a 'believer'? It may sound simple to you, but it's not easy for me.
Is that not what Calvin did? Is that not how you wound up where you are now? (Following what he made up, I mean)
Aren't you already doing that by assuming that Christianity = Calvinism when Calvin wasn't even born until 1509? That is nearly 1500 years AFTER Jesus lived.
Not one book in the Bible written by Calvin. Calvin was not one of Jesus' disciples or even an early church writer etc etc.
You are right, many Baptists are Calvinists and I am becoming increasingly sympathetic towards Calvinism. There are many christians who do not see the same way i.e. Arminians, and their faith is just as genuine as any calvinist's faith. My pastor has never mentioned people like Calvin, only the apostles (and their writings).Your profile says you are a Baptist. But, by what you just said, then we should not follow any denominations since none of them were from Jesus or his followers. So, why are you a Baptist then? Also, most Baptists tend to be Reformed so wouldn't that also make you a Calvinist?
That type of logic is like "all dogs have 4 legs, all cats have 4 legs, therefore a dog is a cat".There is only one truth. Are Calvinists Christians? If so, then Calvinism is Christianity. If not, then how do you answer their theology? They take the Bible very seriously and don't ignore all the bad parts.
You are right, many Baptists are Calvinists and I am becoming increasingly sympathetic towards Calvinism. There are many christians who do not see the same way i.e. Arminians, and their faith is just as genuine as any calvinist's faith. My pastor has never mentioned people like Calvin, only the apostles (and their writings).
I remember some writer saying arminians and calvinists are seeing the different side of the same coin and I liked that observation. God knows all, and decides all things, but still holds each person responsible for their decision to reject or believe in Him.
That type of logic is like "all dogs have 4 legs, all cats have 4 legs, therefore a dog is a cat".
Spend your time looking at christian beliefs overall which is very well summarised in the nicene creed. The early church spoke of what was truly important. Then you should be able to see Calvinism is a relatively unimportant viewpoint in comparison to the Nicene Creed's statements.
Except that he didn't make it up as you put it. He read the Bible and found it in there. The problem with Calvin is not that he and his followers don't take the Bible seriously, it is that they do take it seriously. Making up your own interpretation because you disagree with the Bible is not a very wise thing to do.
Augustine
Christianity is a belief in Christ, not a maths problem. Take off your scientism glasses when looking at religion.So you can have two people who believe completely different and contradictory things about god and his character and both are Christians? I say there is only one truth, not two or three.
No, both can be right AND both can be wrong. The truth will stay the same regardless of what any christian says. The truth never changes. Two christians can read the same bible verse, see something completely different and be right.Who is right? If one is clearly wrong, then how can you say "they are both Christians?" Obviously at least one of them is 100% wrong.
The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. Yes there are many christians who try to explain away how much sinful people were punished by God before Jesus came. Their rationalising and excuse-making does not change the truth.There is no synergy. One view worships a vile, wicked god, the other worships a much better God, but one who is not consistent with the Bible. For truth-seekers, we are not content to select a feel-good philosophy that ignores truth, provided we are saying the Bible is the truth after all.
Have you ever read anything about what the Jews had actually been doing when worshipping pagan gods before they were punished by God (after many warnings by different prophets)?!!! It sounds like you need to learn about ancient religions' terrible customs and sacrifices before you can point the accusatory finger at the Christian God.If god is as the Calvinist Christians says, then he is in no way worthy of any worship. He is a beast and a monster, unworthy of anything but the same treatment one would adorn the devil with.
And yet Calvin made up his own interpretation, which you defend and stand by, only to reject. This is the classic definition of a strawman; prop up a weak argument so you can tear it down. Ok, so one believer congratulates you for at least making a stance re: Jesus, while I challenge you to grow a pair and deal with the Gospel, rather than some strawman concocted 1500 years later.
I double dog dare ya. I don't see any demonstration of the required intestinal fortitude to do it; prove me wrong!
Augustine is dismissed as a heretic, even though he had some good ideas. Did Augustine shed his blood and die for your sins? Did Augustine have any power for that to make one bit of difference, even if he had? Has anyone been baptized in the name of Augustine?
Cop out.
The Faith once delivered to the Saints - I have yet to see you deal with it. Apparently you can't handle the Truth![/Jack Nicholson]
Christianity is a belief in Christ, not a maths problem. Take off your scientism glasses when looking at religion.
Christians are all unique individuals, with different backgrounds, strengths, weaknesses etc. That will affect how we view God and religion overall. We all come from different stages in our life and have a different life map but are walking towards the same destination i.e. God. Someone walking from the east will see the same mountain very differently to someone walking from the west.
No, both can be right AND both can be wrong. The truth will stay the same regardless of what any christian says. The truth never changes. Two christians can read the same bible verse, see something completely different and be right.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
Jack sees There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) Jack rejoices that because he has faith he is no longer condemned because he now knows God has forgiven him.
Jill sees There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) Jill now realises that belief in Christ is what is absolutely essential to be accepted by God. People who are not christians are condemned by God.
One bible verse, two different perspectives, both completely correct.
The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. Yes there are many christians who try to explain away how much sinful people were punished by God before Jesus came. Their rationalising and excuse-making does not change the truth.
Have you ever read anything about what the Jews had actually been doing when worshipping pagan gods before they were punished by God (after many warnings by different prophets)?!!! It sounds like you need to learn about ancient religions' terrible customs and sacrifices before you can point the accusatory finger at the Christian God.
Hi seekingagnostic
I for one compliment you for having made a decision one way or the other. From my perspective, it is honorable for a man to not be wishy-washy in the stance he's decided to establish for his self, as God Himself says "I would that men would either be hot or cold, not lukewarm".
Of course your name is going to throw some people now and again, as it did Soothfish, as the "seeking" part of it will do, as you obviously aren't. But that point is pretty much moot though isn't it lol.
But by your statement all can see that you've made a hard thought out decision and stand firmly beside it and I salute you for it sir.
Best wishes,
Merlin
Where did I say that? Did you read one line of the Nicene Creed? Anyone who knowingly denies any of those doctrines is either not a christian or is a christian walking on extremely thin ice.So we can believe whatever we like and all be Christians?
Don't oversimplify things. There were many different situations and factors regarding how heresy was dealt with. Some christian teachers dealt with heresies very well e.g. athanasius. Other christian leaders wongly did terrible things when rightly dealing with heresies e.g.Pope Gregory IX In the second case by that time the Church had gained too much power and influence.That's not what the early church thought when it was executing heretics. Even the slightest heresy was dealt with in swift and brutal fashion. Didn't you read your Christian history text?
What has that got to do with "the price of eggs in China?" You were discussing your hatred of Calvinism. Don't try to bring theoretical petty crimes into the equation.I do not see how two people seeing the same event can both be right. Example. A man sees a robbery and says the suspect is a thin black man in his early 30's. A woman who saw the same robbery says the lone suspect was a heavyset asian man. They both cannot be right!
That's something we've got in common.This has nothing to do with math or science - two subjects I did poorly in by-the-way. I am more of a linguistic than a scientist, just so you know.
Another thing we have in common. It is good you have not succumbed to the Postmodernist approach to truth.You are right; truth never changes. I believe in absolute truth. That is why I know that both views cannot be compatible. For one to be right, the other must be wrong. This is how reality works.
OK can you point out what issue/s have you have the most problem/s with where it comes to Calvin's "TULIP" doctrine?From my understanding, Calvin had the more complete view of the Bible and Christianity. It also turned out to be the more morally appalling view, so I had to let it down and put it to bed with a rag of chloroform.
That sure is an example of seeing the glass half-full as a drop of poisonous/polluted water left in a cheap-and-nasty glass. Do you apply the same type of distorted and negative reasoning to other areas of your life?It's great god "forgave" Jack by murdering his own son as an elaborate ruse to gain glory for himself. How touching, how moving. I wish I could have bloodshed every time an enemy sinned against me.
Didn't Jesus tell us to be like his dad? If so, I'm far too forgiving and merciful to people than I ought to be. I could learn a thing or two from god.
Probably read too many atheists who use that quoting of (at first glance) nasty-sounding Bible verses from the OT to justify their rejection of God.Odd. I don't remember saying anything about the old testament cruelty. That is an whole other subject.
All those types of comments sound like excuses. What are you personally gaining by doing that?As if hell was not bad enough, god is the very one sending people there because he forced them to be blind to believing in him! What love!
This is partly from another user and my input:
God is a righteous Judge and His justice needs to be satisfied by having a penalty paid for our sins or "lawless deeds".
The only way that debt could be paid is 2 ways; if we pay it ourselves by suffering eternal separation from God or if God provided a substitute who had no sin debt of His own to take our penalty on the cross.
Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/
The main things Christianity provides me:
1. Total relief from the huge burden my sins have created. These sins are no longer a burden or a problem and actually become part of my witness (they are the how I was before Christ came into my life). I feel I can almost fly with the freedom I have been given.
2. The indwelling Holy Spirit, becomes a personal guarantee that God is going to fulfill everything he has promised me. I am not relying on what someone I trust believes or said, but the indwelling Holy Spirit. I know He is there because of what He does and has done for me. He can be as active as I allow Him to be in my life.
3. Godly type Love as both a compelling force and huge strength. This Love combined with the faith I have can do great things. It transforms me into a loving person.
4. The promise of Godly wisdom. Not a worldly wisdom, but wisdom that can change my life.
5. The birthright to heaven that cannot be taken away.
So we can believe whatever we like and all be Christians? That's not what the early church thought when it was executing heretics. Even the slightest heresy was dealt with in swift and brutal fashion. Didn't you read your Christian history text?
I do not see how two people seeing the same event can both be right. Example. A man sees a robbery and says the suspect is a thin black man in his early 30's. A woman who saw the same robbery says the lone suspect was a heavyset asian man. They both cannot be right! This has nothing to do with math or science - two subjects I did poorly in by-the-way. I am more of a linguistic than a scientist, just so you know.
You are right; truth never changes. I believe in absolute truth. That is why I know that both views cannot be compatible. For one to be right, the other must be wrong.
From my understanding, Calvin had the more complete view of the Bible and Christianity. It also turned out to be the more morally appalling view, so I had to let it down and put it to bed with a rag of chloroform.
It's great god "forgave" Jack by murdering his own son as an elaborate ruse to gain glory for himself.
How touching, how moving. I wish I could have bloodshed every time an enemy sinned against me. Apparently that is how god "forgives" - by demanding blood payment for offenses. Didn't Jesus tell us to be like his dad? If so, I'm far too forgiving and merciful to people than I ought to be. I could learn a thing or two from god.
I am seeking. I seek truth and welcome it wherever I find it. I tested Christianity and it has been found lacking. That does not mean I have stopped seeking because I found your religion to be invalid.
Quick question: Where exactly in the Bible is the term "sin debt" used? And where does it say clearly that god demands eternal separation as "payment" for such?
Remember, god set up the system, then made ridiculous and impossible to fulfill commands
Anyone?
I used to be one, but the more learned, the more repulsed I became by it.
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