Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath? (2)

[BrightCandle]

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Those Bible texts are not to used as a cloak to cover premediatated sinning. Grace has been given, so that we who have sinned can find forgiveness, it is not to be used to justify continued sin. When we break the Sabbath Commandment that is lawlessness, and lawlessness is sin.

 

[Windmill]

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

So what? Those verses do not say that you can do whatever you like now that we are all living under grace! What you're suggesting is that we can do whatever we want. Unless you believe Jesus has saved all, no matter what you do (evidence for that?) this logic is flawed.

[bible]Romans 5:20[/bible] Where does it, in this verse, say that we can go and murder? Do whatever we like? Where does it say that Gods law isn't binding anymore and we have free reign over our lives and we can do whatever we please?

[bible]Galatians 3:18[/bible]The most I gather from this, is that keeping the law alone will not save you. It doesn't say the law isn't binding.

[bible]Galatians 5:4[/bible]Once again, it tells us that we will not be saved by keeping the law alone, we need Jesus. It however never says the law isn't binding.

Whereas, these verses pretty much say it is.

[bible]John 14:15[/bible]

[bible]Psalms 111:7-8[/bible]

[bible]Romans 6:14[/bible]

[bible]Romans 6:14[/bible]

 

[YahwehisHisname]

And we Sabbathkeepers will celebrate with you, JimfromOhio, on Sabbath, Easter, and for all eternity!

One reasoning that has gained currency on these threads is that "The Sabbath is a symbol of resting from works that some think are necessary to obtain salvation." But to say that we are to rest from all our works, if interpreted in a foolishly literal way, would remove all Christian duties from us. We would be like those Paul wrote about, saying, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid..." (Romans 6:1-2) Or like some that James addressed in his letter: "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18) Yet I would hope that we all expect that when a person comes to Christ, some change would occur in his/her life, that is, in the things s/he does, says, and thinks.

I hear many of you saying, though, that you honor the Sabbath on Sundays. That's good that you honor the principle! But how do you justify the change of day? The Bible didn't command it. The historical record indicates that many, perhaps a majority, of Christians continued to rest and worship on the seventh day for the first hundred years after Jesus' birth, and some continued to do so through three more centuries. Sunday is honored as the Lord's Day, and the Sabbath commandment transferred to it, primarily because certain Church leaders claimed authority from God to do so. As far as I have been able to determine, the reasoning that the day of Jesus' resurrection should be honored above the Sabbath day was developed only after Sunday was already established as the day of rest and worship for a majority of Christians.

Where many Sabbathkeepers and I differ is that we question the authority of any church or church leader to alter a command that the Bible records so often, clearly and plainly. Again, I condemn no one, nor do I set any requirements on anybody to do as I do; but I prefer to follow the Bible rather than any denomination or leader.

Thank you for reading, and may God the Father, Son, and Spirit bless us all as we attempt to understand this admittedly difficult matter.

HalaluYah. Even though that is 100% fact, and can not be rationally declined, it will. Very sad. This topic has no argument. It is as clear as anything in scripture.
If we could only start by saying, "I know that Saturday is the sabbath, and changing it is not scriptural, and I know when Jesus comes again we will observe it with Him, and I know no one observed the sabbath on Sunday until the pagan sun god worshiper Constantine implemented it, BUT I do it on Sunday anyway because ............................ whatever your reason.
This is not done because saying that will admit error and we are just too prideful, and arrogant, to accept that. This is the same logic behind thinking that Christmas and Easter have anything at all to do with God and His scriptures.

 

[Oblio]

and I know no one observed the sabbath on Sunday until the pagan sun god worshiper Constantine implemented it,

Incorrect.

It has been shown countless times from historical primary source documents that the Apostles guided by Christ set aside Sunday for worship of the risen Jesus Christ. Nor was the Sabbath changed.

 

[BrightCandle]

Incorrect.

It has been shown countless times from historical primary source documents that the Apostles guided by Christ set aside Sunday for worship of the risen Jesus Christ. Nor was the Sabbath changed.

"I know that Saturday is the sabbath, and changing it is not scriptural, and I know when Jesus comes again we will observe it with Him, and I know no one observed the sabbath on Sunday until the pagan sun god worshiper Constantine implemented it, BUT I do it on Sunday anyway because ............................ whatever your reason."

What "YahwehisHisname" was trying to state, was that Constantine the Great implemented the first Sunday law in sacred history, which included civil requirements to cease from most types of secular work on Sunday, which for the first time in history made Sunday like Sabbath. In the centuries before that time, there did evolve a celebration of the resurreciton among various Christisn churches in Christendom, but it was not observed in place of or in the same manner as the 7th day Sabbath. I would challenge your statement that Christ guided the Apostles to set aside Sunday as a sacred day. Why? Because they quote no command from Jesus to do so. If Jesus did issue such a command wouldn't it have been recorded in the Gospels or the Letters of Paul? Sunday worship is based on the traditions of men, not on any command from Jesus.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

"I know that Saturday is the sabbath, and changing it is not scriptural, and I know when Jesus comes again we will observe it with Him, and I know no one observed the sabbath on Sunday until the pagan sun god worshiper Constantine implemented it, BUT I do it on Sunday anyway because ............................ whatever your reason."

What "YahwehisHisname" was trying to state, was that Constantine the Great implemented the first Sunday law in sacred history, which included civil requirements to cease from most types of secular work on Sunday, which for the first time in history made Sunday like Sabbath. In the centuries before that time, there did evolve a celebration of the resurreciton among various Christisn churches in Christendom, but it was not observed in place of or in the same manner as the 7th day Sabbath. I would challenge your statement that Christi guided the Apostles to set aside Sunday as a sacred day. Why? Because they quote no command from Jesus to do so. If Jesus did issue such a command wouldn't it have been recorded in the Gospels or the Letters of Paul? What Sunday worship is based on the traditions of men, not on any command from Jesus.

BrightCandle,
Peace sister, eh?

God receives them. For they too are in Christ,....as you are.
Rest from all your 6 days....to enter His Rest even Today!!! While it's called "To-day".


Please, consider believing this,
Connie

In humility~

2 Cor 11:1-3
11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. KJV


~This word cuts me too~

We can be One Heart and One Mind because we have Christ in our Midst! It's what comes out of our mouths is what is defiling us,....all over the place. Our deliverance is there deliverance, ya know?

I have nothing else to brag about except the Grace of God,
Connie

 

[Jesus Is Real]

dup

 

[Jesus Is Real]

B-Candle.......if you have a reg. Email....I'll send you a Albino Peacock he's is BEAUTIFUL!!!

 

[jochanaan]

It has been shown countless times from historical primary source documents that the Apostles guided by Christ set aside Sunday for worship of the risen Jesus Christ. Nor was the Sabbath changed.

But it has also been shown that many, perhaps a majority, of first-century Christians continued to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, and many others continued to keep it through about the fourth century A.D. I admit that Constantine only codified what had become a common practice; but to say it began immediately after Jesus' resurrection contradicts the very primary sources you cite.

 

[tall73]

But it has also been shown that many, perhaps a majority, of first-century Christians continued to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, and many others continued to keep it through about the fourth century A.D. I admit that Constantine only codified what had become a common practice; but to say it began immediately after Jesus' resurrection contradicts the very primary sources you cite.

a. Quite true, the majority kept it for hundreds of years. But I don't mind Oblio pointing out what is also true. Constantine merely continued a trend. The regional council of Laodicea's ruling, Constantines law, etc. probably shifted larger numbers of people over however. And the ruling of the Laodicean council very clearly made the rest elements of the Sabbath applicable to Sunday.

b. The history also shows the change beginning in Rome and Alexandria away from the Sabbath.

c. There are no texts which speak of a regular observance until perhaps Ignatius, Barnabas, Justin Martyr etc. which was sometime later.

d. Most of these statements begin after 135 when the emporer instituted laws against the Jews after the putting down of rebellion. It was then very helpful to distance yourself from the Jews.

e. We have such a change from the early church that people like James (and nearly the whole church at Jerusalem) who were still "zeaous for the law" were considered heretics by the time of Epiphanius, or the Laodicean regional council. They were not keeping it for salvation (Acts 15), but neither did anyone object to them keeping it. On the contrary there were many who were upset with the rumors that Paul was telling Jews in the diaspora to stop keeping the law and the traditions of the fathers.

Essentially the Jews in the church were keeping all of the Jewish traditions, but simply accepted the Messiah. And in this state many Jews believed. But changes were so radical that eventually the very practice of these things became heretical.

Whether you think everyone should keep the Sabbath or not, no one can deny that there was a huge shift, beyond what was needed. Either James was a heretic, or the church changed. I would say the latter.

 

[Cliff2]

But it has also been shown that many, perhaps a majority, of first-century Christians continued to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, and many others continued to keep it through about the fourth century A.D. I admit that Constantine only codified what had become a common practice; but to say it began immediately after Jesus' resurrection contradicts the very primary sources you cite.

Agree with you. It was not until 130 AD or there abouts that we have any record of Sunday keeping.

History indicates this. Paul or the Apostles did not keep Sunday.

 

[tall73]

Agree with you. It was not until 130 AD or there abouts that we have any record of Sunday keeping.

History indicates this. Paul or the Apostles did not keep Sunday.

That all depends on when you date the various documents. Some of them have no definite events to date by, and so can range many years in their estimates.

 

[BrightCandle]

If Jesus gave a new Sabbath command to the apostles, history should read much differently than it does. For one thing, there would have been no need for the Council of Laodicea to exhort Christians to stop keeping the the 7th day Sabbath, like the Jews, if Christendom had been keeping the Sunday sabbath for the previous 300+ years since the time of Christ!

 

[BrightCandle]

Incorrect.

It has been shown countless times from historical primary source documents that the Apostles guided by Christ set aside Sunday for worship of the risen Jesus Christ. Nor was the Sabbath changed.

The one primary source document that is missing is the Bible!

The Bible trumps all other primary source documents, and what do we find in it regarding the Sabbath? A command written in stone, by Jesus, to "Remember the Sabbath day (7th day, not the 1st) to keep it holy"!

 

[wild01]

Romans 7 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003 by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. All rights reserved.



Romans 7

An Illustration from Marriage

1 Since I am speaking to those who understand law, brothers, (A) are you unaware that the law has authority over someone as long as he lives? 2 For example, a married woman is legally bound to her husband while he lives. (B) But if her husband dies, she is released from the law regarding the husband. 3 So then, if she gives herself to another man while her husband is living, she will be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law. Then, if she gives herself to another man, she is not an adulteress. 4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were put to death (C) in relation to the law (D) through the [crucified] body of the Messiah, (E) so that you may belong to another—to Him who was raised from the dead—that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, (F) [a] the sinful passions operated through the law in every part of us (G) [b] and bore fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way [c] of the Spirit (H) and not in the old letter of the law.



If you want to observe the sabbath rest, more power to you, however if you want to try to say that it is still a command of God that His followers do no work from sundown friday to sundown saturday then all the other OT holy days and years also still apply along with every other law in the old testament, and if the temple was rebuilt we would still have to sacrifice animals. Woman are unclean and must dwell away from us when menstration. etc.

If we are in Christ we are no longer under the old covenant. The new covenant is not a new set of rules. Everything is permissable, however everything is not beneficial. (not my words-paul's)

 

[woobadooba]

If you want to observe the sabbath rest, more power to you, however if you want to try to say that it is still a command of God that His followers do no work from sundown friday to sundown saturday then all the other OT holy days and years also still apply along with every other law in the old testament, and if the temple was rebuilt we would still have to sacrifice animals. Woman are unclean and must dwell away from us when menstration. etc.

If we are in Christ we are no longer under the old covenant. The new covenant is not a new set of rules. Everything is permissable, however everything is not beneficial. (not my words-paul's)

It's not about rest from work, but about remembering your Creator, and giving Him your undivided attention through worship.

It is clear to me that you really don't understand what the Sabbath is, or its purpose. If you did, you wouldn't be using these kind of self-defeating arguments to refute it.

 

[wild01]

It's not about rest from work, but about remembering your Creator, and giving Him your undivided attention through worship.

It is clear to me that you really don't understand what the Sabbath is, or its purpose. If you did, you wouldn't be using these kind of self-defeating arguments to refute it.

wooba, I think you have misunderstood me, My point was if you want to observe the sabbath rest ie (to use your words)
"remembering your Creator, and giving Him your undivided attention through worship."
great wahoo good for you

but if you insist that it is a sin to do any work from sundown friday to sundown saturday then you are missing the point.

BTW as a recovering legalist I very much understand OT law. At one point in my life I did strive to observe all the OT laws all the "holy days" clean and unclean meats three tier tithe. etc. then I learned the truth, Romans 7 was the chapter that opened my eyes, which is why I quoted it.

 

[woobadooba]

but if you insist that it is a sin to do any work from sundown friday to sundown saturday then you are missing the point.

I suppose that all depends on the nature of the work, and the purpose for which it is carried out.

 

[wild01]

I suppose that all depends on the nature of the work, and the purpose for which it is carried out.

the spirit of the sabbath law is to set time aside to spend with God and to rest and recouperate from your week. the letter of the sabbath law is illustrated very well here http://www.giveshare.org/HolyDay/jubilee.html

and includes forgiving debt not working land releasing servants etc.

the letter kills