Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

[DrBubbaLove]

Let's say for a minute that it is an "ancient Christian belief". Does that mean that everything Christians believe is Biblical?

Are we to get our doctrine from scripture or from what other people believe?

How do we "get our doctrine" from scripture and have it not be "what other people" believe?

I think the problem becomes having no limit on what we say we "get" from scripture. So, yeah in that light, I think asking what did "ancient" Christians believe is not a bad question.

 

[Standing Up]

The Communion of the Saints is essential to Christian faith. The Communion of the Saints includes the belief that we can pray to the Saints. Indeed, it is a good and holy thing to do. We have a written record of belief in the intercession of the saints going back all the way to even 80 AD which proves that it is an ancient Christian belief. You can read more here:

The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Hermas[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif][/FONT]
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Dating of the work aside, it's interesting that the angel wonders why Hermas isn't going directly to God (see Heb. 1:1-3).

Slothful?

 

[Thekla]

But asking someone else to pray for one does not mean that one is not praying directly to God.

That is a misperception.

Instead, like Paul, we ask others to pray for us and pray for others.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But asking someone else to pray for one does not mean that one is not praying directly to God.

That is a misperception.

Instead, like Paul, we ask others to pray for us and pray for others.

I am, like Paul, not in the habit of asking total strangers to pray for me, much less strangers who cannot hear me, unless they have some form of omnipresence.

 

[washedagain]

Paul prayed to deceased people? Really?

 

[Standing Up]

Paul prayed to deceased people? Really?

He may have before he became a Christian. Supposedly praying to the dead was a Jewish tradition; if so, Paul would have been aware of it. But once he became Christian he never instructs anyone about that Jewish fable. Instead he emphatically says ask the living on earth to pray for him and pray for each other.

 

[Thekla]

I am, like Paul, not in the habit of asking total strangers to pray for me, much less strangers who cannot hear me, unless they have some form of omnipresence.

Well sure, that's your personal interpretation, but is not a representation of what others (EO, for example) believe.

Christ is our commonality through the Holy Spirit - is the body of Christ alien to itself ? But I think this understanding of interior alienation accords with the idea that physical presence is more spiritually "real" in Christ that the spiritual aspect of existence.

Of course, the man in Macedonia who prayed Paul to come to them had faith that he would be heard, and though separated by distance, through the Holy SPirit Paul heard the man's prayer to him.

 

[Thekla]

He may have before he became a Christian. Supposedly praying to the dead was a Jewish tradition; if so, Paul would have been aware of it. But once he became Christian he never instructs anyone about that Jewish fable. Instead he emphatically says ask the living on earth to pray for him and pray for each other.

I understand, you associate "live" with the physical, with 'bios'.

But many Christians understand the true life to be the 'zoe', the life in Christ.

I do think the claim of "jewish fable" (more accurately mythos, which overlaps with fable, but is not quite the same) associated with our belief that the Scriptures are true, and that Christ's words are accurate NOW should receive an actual documentation by yourself, instead of making a broad unsupported claim.

 

[Standing Up]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Hermas[/FONT]

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Dating of the work aside, it's interesting that the angel wonders why Hermas isn't going directly to God (see Heb. 1:1-3).

Slothful?

Should also mention that Hermas was a forerunner of Arius and the adoption theory (Jesus was adopted as Christ at his baptism).

His brother was supposedly Pope Pius I of Rome. So, shouldn't be surprised that praying to the dead continued in some groups.

Why anyone would use it (like Irenaeus and Origin did) as scripture or as a source for non-apostolic views is beyond me.


The Shepherd of Hermas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jackmt]

But asking someone else to pray for one does not mean that one is not praying directly to God.

Instead, like Paul, we ask others to pray for us and pray for others.

Paul asked others to pray to God. You might say that Paul prayed to others to pray for him, but that is equivocating. He was writing to the living saints. Not the dead ones.

 

[Thekla]

Paul asked others to pray to God. You might say that Paul prayed to others to pray for him, but that is equivocating. He was writing to the living saints. Not the dead ones.

And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? John 11:26


Who are you calling "dead" ?

 

[jackmt]

And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? John 11:26


Who are you calling "dead" ?

Paul, Peter, Mary, James, John, Thomas, Jude, etc. Those who died (are absent from the body) and went to be with Christ. They are dead. Stop equivocating.

 

[Thekla]

Paul, Peter, Mary, James, John, Thomas, Jude, etc. Those who died (are absent from the body) and went to be with Christ. They are dead. Stop equivocating.

Do you disagree with Christ ? Or do you mean that Paul and the others you mention denied Christ ? Or do you believe that the human body is the source of life instead of God ? Or that the body of the risen Lord is full of death ? Or something else ?

 

[jackmt]

Do you disagree with Christ ? Or do you mean that Paul and the others you mention denied Christ ? Or do you believe that the human body is the source of life instead of God ? Or that the body of the risen Lord is full of death ? Or something else ?

I have made my distinctions clear. If you persist in equivocating, we can not continue. Amos 3:3

 

[washedagain]

And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? John 11:26


Who are you calling "dead" ?

John 11:13-15

New International Version (NIV)

13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


Jesus called Lazarus DEAD and did so PLAINLY.

 

[Standing Up]

John 11:13-15

New International Version (NIV)

13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


Jesus called Lazarus DEAD and did so PLAINLY.

Yep.

1 Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Dead:

1) properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

 

[Thekla]

John 11:13-15

New International Version (NIV)

13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


Jesus called Lazarus DEAD and did so PLAINLY.

Yes, the body of Lazaros was without bios (life, of the duration or physical life), but there is another life - zoe (the spark of life which fills the bios, and the spiritual life).

As in Jeremiah's testimony concerning Rachel who had died, and with Christ speaking of Abraham, the other Lazaros, and the rich man, the cessation of bios does not cause the cessation of zoe.

 

[Thekla]

Yep.

1 Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Dead:

1) properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

The term used here for death is "nekros", which means "corpse". Ie the body (which ceases to live - bios - upon death) is without life, but not the zoe.

When Christ says that those who live and believe in Him shall never die, He uses for the term "live" a form of "zoe" - not "bios".

Note that Paul also says that to be absent from the body is to present with Christ. How can one be dead and be present with He Who is Life ?

The bios is not the zoe - and those with Christ are dead in body but also live (zoe) just as Christ promised.

 

[katherine2001]

Paul, Peter, Mary, James, John, Thomas, Jude, etc. Those who died (are absent from the body) and went to be with Christ. They are dead. Stop equivocating.

Then Jesus is a liar. He said that those who believe in Him shall have eternal LIFE (life is the total opposite of death).

 

[jackmt]

Then Jesus is a liar. He said that those who believe in Him shall have eternal LIFE (life is the total opposite of death).

Those whose bodies have died, or are corpses if you prefer, is who I am calling dead. I acknowledge they are alive in another realm; some in heaven, some awaiting judgment.

Again, I have made those distinctions clear. If you maintain that their bodies are alive, say so. To answer me meaningfully you must accept my stipulative definition of "dead" or provide another we can use. Otherwise, you are committing the logical fallacyof equivocating.

Are the bodies of the saints in heaven alive or dead?