Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

[DrBubbaLove]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

Which apostle did that?
​

It is off topic. Check the thread title. Praying to, not for.

By that logic asking anyone to pray for me would be wrong. The only way I have to get others to pray for me is to ask. In that regard a prayer to a Saint is asking them to pray for us (to our Lord).

 

[Dorothea]

If it that wern't so sad, I'd be rolling out of my chair right now.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
As for your "holy mother of god". No such critter.
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold , his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold , thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said , Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
His mother and brothers were still outside.

It's not sad, it's true and what we are called to do. Pray for each other.

You will think what you want. It bears nothing on my spiritual life or relationship with the living God.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

This suggests Catholics do not consider what scriptures say and do not base our beliefs on them. Which besides being untrue and baiting, it goes off topic.

I think he asked a very valid question. If I may ask, are you refusing to answer him or do you not have answers for his questions? I have found that when comparing the doctrines, beliefs and religious practices taught in Catholicism against what is written in the Scriptures firmly and clearly validates his inquiries.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

By that logic asking anyone to pray for me would be wrong. The only way I have to get others to pray for me is to ask. In that regard a prayer to a Saint is asking them to pray for us (to our Lord).

As Fireinfolding has already pointed out:

Jesus does mention those asking and agreeing on earth here

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

There are no scriptural references whatsoever about asking a person in heaven to pray for us.

 

[Publius]

Am not sure calling this "my" or "your" interpretation is accurate and certainly not what I wrote.

You said it was "someone's interpretation". Who's interpretation did you mean if not the one who cited the verses? And what interpretation were you referring to, as none was offered?

Yes, I hold the view but so have thousands of years of people, so it is more proper to call it the Church's.

Which Church? There's no evidence in any of the historic creeds, confessions, or catechisms of Christianity that we are to pray to the dead.

There's no example in the Bible or the Didache of anyone praying to the dead or being instructed to pray for the dead or being told that the prohibition of praying to the dead does not apply.

The counter point was made that scripture forbids our asking Saints to pray for us, to intercede.

The point is that all contact with the dead is prohibited. The "saints", being dead, are included in this.

Obviously our individual understanding of those scriptures would have to be different, otherwise there would be conflict between our understanding of scripture and this practice. That is not the case. And as we differ and both have the same verses, I find it rather unproductive to focus there.

That's seems a little like a cop-out to me. To first impugn my "interpretation", even though no interpretation was given, and then to simply dismiss it by saying that we have a different understanding is a cop out.

I really don't mind criticism. In fact, if it's criticism based in scripture, I would welcome it gratefully. But just repeating "you're wrong" over and over, even as politely as you've put it, isn't criticism and it certainly isn't correction. It's not even dialogue. It's just contradiction for contradiction's sake.

Setting those differences aside, I simply pointed out the it would not be possible for early Christians, especially with predominately Jewish leadership quite familiar with those same verses to have people asking martyrs to pray for them if their understanding of those verses matched those opposed to this practice today.

And that's the part where I asked you where we see early Christians praying to the dead? In the Bible? In the Didache? Where?

I'm still waiting for that answer.

Am not ignoring it, simply think it is rather an obvious no brainer that we do NOT agree on what those verses mean in regards/or as it applies to asking Saints to pray for us.

And yet, you still have not addressed any of those verses or explained what you believe they mean or why you believe your belief of what they mean is correct.

This suggests Catholics do not consider what scriptures say and do not base our beliefs on them. Which besides being untrue and baiting, it goes off topic.

I don't believe it is untrue or baiting. To the contrary, I believe your dismissal of the verses I cited (upon your request, no less) without even addressing them demonstrates what I said to be true.

How could asking in what reasonable world Saint John could allow his flock to ask martyrs to pray for them IF Saint John understood those scriptures as forbidding that practice be looked at as dismissive?

That goes to John's frame of mind and motives, not the substance of the verses, themselves.

It's also what is referred to as "assuming facts not in evidence", as you still have not demonstrated that John asked anyone to pray to the dead.

Maybe I should tell the judge that less than 30 years after the law was established and taught, it was completely corrupted and from that point on no lawyer or judge had any "first hand knowledge" and that all I have to do is read the law and I know myself what it means.

I'd be curious to know how you came to the conclusion that traffic laws concerning stop signals have become "corrupted".

Then we would have to assume Saint John knew this and would have corrected this "error" that had "immediately moved in". Instead he depicts something in his vision which, no matter what one believes it shows, would be supportive of people holding this "error" rather than correcting them.

Can you cite a source for this claim?

The point was that they were doing the very thing being claimed here as wrong according to scripture AND YET they knew these scriptures as Jews first and then Christians, yet are still asking for the prayers of martyrs in Heaven to intercede on their behalf to the Lord. That would make no sense at all if they understood those scriptures as forbidding those prayers.

Why not? People do things contrary to scripture all the time. Even Christians. (Not that you've shown any evidence that they did these things.)

Except we have the Apostles not only not "correcting" something already being done

Again, this is what is commonly referred to as "assuming facts not in evidence" (that is, the assumption that a claim is true before any evidence to support the truthfulness of the claim has been presented).

Where do we see this being done? In the Bible? In the Didache?

but Saint John if not depicting it being done in his vision, depicting what would represent it to those already doing it.

Where in scripture do we see John depicting prayer to the dead?

It is simple really. No one is claiming that ONLY the prayers of the righteous are efficacious, clearly God can answer the prayers of any one.

Actually, you did claim that prayer is made more efficacious both by the righteousness and the proximity of the one praying.

But "availeth much" does mean if one had a choice of Prayer Warriors, a righteous person would be a good one to have on your team.

And what makes a person more righteous than another? Where does the Bible say that different amounts of righteousness are imputed to different believers?

And yes we could say some very righteous people have walked among us.

And Jesus would disagree with you, as He has already declared that there is none righteous but God alone.

But certainly those in Heaven just by their presence there are undoubtedly righteous.

So, presence in a place makes one righteous? Did Jesus know this when He declared that there are none righteous but God alone?

So without question those in Heaven would make great Prayer Warriors because without question their prayers would "availeth much".

How do you know? Where in scripture are we told that prayer is any more or less efficacious based on the proximity of the one praying? Why, then, does scripture always describe prayer as being based on the will of God, not the righteousness or proximity of the one praying?

Because they are in Heaven and a person could not be there and not be righteous.

And the Bible says that they are not there because of their own righteousness.

They are accounted as righteous, just as the saints here on Earth are accounted as righteous in Christ.

No my logic was that the early Church asking martyrs to intercede with the Lord...

...which you still have not demonstrated...

on their behalf during their regular worship would not be able to do that if the Apostles and the predominately Jewish leadership immediately replacing them understood those OT verses as meaning "don't pray to the dead" and applied that to asking martyrs for something.

Why not?

If the Apostles and the leadership they installed thought those verses applied to asking the martyrs to put in a good word for us, how could they participate and sanction those prayers in worship?

Where is the evidence that they did?

 

[Whisper of Hope]

If it that wern't so sad, I'd be rolling out of my chair right now.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
As for your "holy mother of god". No such critter.
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold , his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold , thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said , Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
His mother and brothers were still outside.

I agree with you, brother. Amen.

 

[Fireinfolding]

1Mind1Spirit adds

Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said , Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Amen and again only two of these agreeing on earth (shall be done for them by the Father in heaven

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
　
Whereas Jesus says this also...

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

When asking how to pray, Jesus says...


Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,

Whats interesting is Jesus says that he is not saying that He will pray the Father for them when asking in his name. Then directs them after which manner to pray adressing Father. Though it wouldnt exclude just two agreeing on earth and asking the Father for anything.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Jesus does mention those asking and agreeing on earth here

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Howdy Fire,
While I was tryin' to figure out how best to put into words what I was thinkin' Jesus meant, I checked out some other thoughts on the subject.
I kinda liked this one.

People's New Testament
18:19 If two of you shall agree. Two shall constitute a Christian fellowship. The united prayers of this fellowship for any legitimate object shall be heard. The assurance of this is found in the fact that Christ will be present wherever two or three are gathered in his name. Their united prayers will ascend, made mighty by the intercession of the Son of God. By his presence it becomes his prayer.

Jesus was talkin' about not hurting fellow christians.
Also how to settle disputes, so then 2 witnesses praying could get the answer and settle the problem.
Interesting you used it here.
I do not wish to hurt our catholic brothers and sisters,but by the same token I cannot condone thier illegitimate doctrine.
And as they will not hear truth, they have become as sinners and publicans to me.
That brings up another topic, how should we treat publicans and sinners?

Bible VersionsKJVMatthewMatthew 18

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Whats interesting is Jesus says that he is not saying that He will pray the Father for them when asking in his name. Then directs them after which manner to pray adressing Father. Though it wouldnt exclude just two agreeing on earth and asking the Father for anything.

I know I almost got sidetracked there first.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask , it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Looks like the next verse infers that they must be gathered in his name. Reckon we would be assuming too much to say this excludes saint nicholas, mother mary, etc.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Howdy back at cha 1Mind1Spirit

Yeah, I was thinking the same, though I gotta look at it cloer

No one come to the Father but by me

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Theres that in that day, I in you thing going on, which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you

Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ...

Ephes 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Then the acknowledgement of the whole family (of two)

Ephes 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

But still

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
　

So he at least specified, theres no getting around that

Sorry, the verse has been so overquoted here But I am trying to catch something else...But cant, Im feeling strangely tired (for me anyway) but maybe if I hit the sheets and wake up I'll be "feeling it"

I need to catch me some zzzzz's.

So goodnight, God bless you, and catch you later gater

 

[Incariol]

I voted "essential to our faith" since at its core it is really an affirmation of the unity of the Church and the life of those who are in Christ.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I think he asked a very valid question. If I may ask, are you refusing to answer him or do you not have answers for his questions? I have found that when comparing the doctrines, beliefs and religious practices taught in Catholicism against what is written in the Scriptures firmly and clearly validates his inquiries.

The scriptures say they will pick up serpents and can drink poison not be hurt (Mark 16). I used to live not far from people who did just that because of this one verse.

Now I could argue with them about the meaning of that verse, but it is quite obvious to me that we have a fundamental disagreement about what that verse means. And the people doing this today are so adamant that I am wrong and willing to risk death to "prove" Jesus wants them to do this. My just telling them there are other ways to look at this verse is unlikely to go much beyond agreeing to disagree. Yes it does, no it does not. Fruitless in understanding the other's position.

If you really insist on going verse by verse to hear me say that it does not prevent us from asking (pray to) the Saints in Heaven to pray for us, I guess we could do that but what will we accomplish?

To me the fact the early Christians are doing just that as part of their regular worship (as Catholics do today), combined with their leaders at the same time speaking out against the pagan practices regarding the dead (using those same verses as "scriptural" proof) does not support an understanding of those verses which would make intercessory prayer wrong. If it did they would not have been allowing it. These are people praying (asking) to martyrs for help, people that were taught by Apostles and undoubtedly doing this before the last one left them. And that is enough for me, I do not require scripture to spell it out for me (and I accept the Trinity doctrine without having it spelled out in scripture).

Look I get that a lot of Christians do not do this and believe OT scriptures prevent it. We just do not agree on what those scriptures forbid and certainly do not agree that these practices obvious in the early Church represent a corruption of teaching.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Subscribing to thread!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Ok, just letting you's know I keep spinning this around, Jesus words over and over again and I am so learning something here by doing just that, these things are so AFFIRMING! I mean, I already knew it but somehow looking into it again and reestablishing the same by tying the same into other scripture is really awesome! My faith just shot through the roof in otherwords, He so rocks!

Ok, again....

No one come to the Father but by me

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Theres that in that day, I in you which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ...

Ephes 3:14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

But (Again) he says this...

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

The same in repects to himself

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Ok... This is just way too awesome!

... they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

No wonder! That your JOY may be made FULL, he says hitherto (before he ascended) that ye have asked NOTHING in my name, so he says ASK that your JOY might actually be FULL.

Ever know something, but it just becomes reaffirmed? And its as if you heard it for the very first time? Thats what just happened in me

The more you think about it the more it sinks into your ears and eventually renews you again.

How awesome is He? Just too awesome, too awesome!

 

[Rick Otto]

No one come to the Father but by me

That alone is good reason!

 

[Fireinfolding]

That alone is good reason!

I never change do I?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Ok, just letting you's know I keep spinning this around, Jesus words over and over again and I am so learning something here by doing just that, these things are so AFFIRMING! I mean, I already knew it but somehow looking into it again and reestablishing the same by tying the same into other scripture is really awesome! My faith just shot through the roof in otherwords, He so rocks!

Ok, again....

No one come to the Father but by me

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Theres that in that day, I in you which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ...

Ephes 3:14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

But (Again) he says this...

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

The same in repects to himself

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Ok... This is just way too awesome!

... they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

No wonder! That your JOY may be made FULL, he says hitherto (before he ascended) that ye have asked NOTHING in my name, so he says ASK that your JOY might actually be FULL.

Ever know something, but it just becomes reaffirmed? And its as if you heard it for the very first time? Thats what just happened in me

The more you think about it the more it sinks into your ears and eventually renews you again.

How awesome is He? Just too awesome, too awesome!

Right on Sis
There's always a danger when haggling with unbelievers:o
But praise the Lord, To those who have, more will be given.
God bless yuh

 

[Ave Maria]

The Communion of the Saints is essential to Christian faith. The Communion of the Saints includes the belief that we can pray to the Saints. Indeed, it is a good and holy thing to do. We have a written record of belief in the intercession of the saints going back all the way to even 80 AD which proves that it is an ancient Christian belief. You can read more here:

The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

 

[Publius]

The Communion of the Saints is essential to Christian faith. The Communion of the Saints includes the belief that we can pray to the Saints. Indeed, it is a good and holy thing to do. We have a written record of belief in the intercession of the saints going back all the way to even 80 AD which proves that it is an ancient Christian belief. You can read more here:

The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

Let's say for a minute that it is an "ancient Christian belief". Does that mean that everything Christians believe is Biblical?

Are we to get our doctrine from scripture or from what other people believe?