Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

[Rick Otto]

I think Lion King & PTD nailed it. If this isn't explicitly stated, or demonstrated practice, say if St. Paul had prayed TO St. Stephen, I'd be praying to St. Stephen too.

 

[Rick Otto]

While at it and as long as we are splitting hairs, maybe we should double check meaning of pray - and as long as we treat asking each other to pray for us as no different than "praying to" a Saint - then when can proceed.

Any conversation of us non-divine humans with the deceased that scripture puts in a positive light would do.

 

[OpenDoor]

I presume that this is referring to the Saints in Heaven. What option should I choose if I think they cannot hear us?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Any conversation of us non-divine humans with the deceased that scripture puts in a positive light would do.

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

Am not sure how to see people in Heaven offering our prayers to God in a negative way - but am certain some will find a way.

 

[dfw69]

Amen, brother. There are no Scriptures which instruct believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. And there are no Scriptures which encourage, or even mentions, believers in Christ asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. However, Scripture does tell us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). Scripture also describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us: "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God" (Romans 8:26-27; 1 John 5:14-15). Scripture also tells us that as believers in Christ, we can approach God's throne ourselves: "Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need" (Hebrews 4:16).

Therefore, if we have the Son of God and the Spirit of God interceding for us before God the Father and we can boldly approach the throne of God with confidence, than why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us before God? The only time Scripture mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination. The Scriptures clearly condemns such practices. We do not need to pray to Mary or to the saints, because we can approach God ourselves with confidence. The truth of this matter is this: There are no Scriptures instructing believers in Christ on earth to pray to Mary or to the saints in heaven. Praying to Mary or to the saints in heaven is clearly unbiblical and should be avoided.

i agree ...we should not pray to saints or mary as RCC do......its ok to pray to Jesus....and the father.....

most of the time ....i pray to my father in Jesus name.....but sometimes i speak to Jesus in prayer....mostly worshiping him and thanking him for the things he has done for me

 

[Publius]

While at it and as long as we are splitting hairs, maybe we should double check meaning of pray - and as long as we treat asking each other to pray for us as no different than "praying to" a Saint - then when can proceed.

With three major differences:

The first is that the saints Catholics pray to are dead, which is strictly forbidden by scripture. For that matter, how do Catholics even know the "saints" they're praying to are in Heaven, particularly when Catholics are constantly telling us that it's presumptuous to say that we can know who is and isn't saved? How do Catholics know they're not in Purgatory or, worse yet, were not saved and are now in Hell?

The second is that Catholics do not regard saints the same as the living. Catholics frequently ascribe supernatural abilities to saints and ascribe authority that belongs only to Christ to saints.

The third is that saints are neither omnipresent or omnipotent and cannot hear the millions of prayers by Catholics, nor can they fulfil them.

 

[Rick Otto]

how is intercession from those on earth any different or more effective, or (if you believe intercession of the saints to be idolatry) any less idolatrous than intercession from the members of the one Body in heaven?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't the issue. It is about us the living, praying to the deceased, not intercessing (praying for ~).

 

[Hentenza]

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

Who are the saints in that verse? Who are the elders? And where is Mary in that verse?

 

[Rick Otto]

I presume that this is referring to the Saints in Heaven. What option should I choose if I think they cannot hear us?

Option for what?

 

[Dorothea]

James 5:16 "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

and an explanation from an EO from a Church's site:


...Was the Apostle serious when he asked for the prayers of the Church? Are the Protestants serious when they request their brethren (as they often do) to pray for them? Where is, if you please, the logic of the distinction?

A doubt about the possibility or reality of a communication between living and dead through Christ and in Christ is too un-Christian to want an answer. To ascribe to the prayers of living Christians a power of intercession which is refused to the Christians admitted into heavenly glory would be a glaring absurdity.


Why pray to Saints? Why do Protestants NOT pray to Saints? - Alexei Khomiakov

And those people will still say it's wrong and say whatever. And we will still say it's beneficial to have the prayers of the righteous.

So, in the end, ask the Saints for prayers if you wish (as I do at times), or not.

 

[Rick Otto]

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

Am not sure how to see people in Heaven offering our prayers to God in a negative way - but am certain some will find a way.

Maybe, but they wouldn't be addressing anything we are trying to discuss here anyway. What part of that verse instructs, illustrates, or examples us praying TO saints?
It mentions the prayers, but it doesn't say anything about who those prayers were addressed to. I'm tempted to think you are more interested in causing a derail than in discussing the topic: praying to deceased saints.

 

[Rick Otto]

Who are the saints in that verse? Who are the elders? And where is Mary in that verse?

mm hmm...

 

[Dorothea]

We ask for their prayers to Christ just like we do other brethren.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Dorothea; James 5:16 "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

Wrong topic, sis: prayer TO, not prayer FOR...

...Was the Apostle serious when he asked for the prayers of the Church? Are the Protestants serious when they request their brethren (as they often do) to pray for them? Where is, if you please, the logic of the distinction?

Off-topic

A doubt about the possibility or reality of a communication between living and dead through Christ and in Christ is too un-Christian to want an answer.

And too beside the point to consider.

To ascribe to the prayers of living Christians a power of intercession which is refused to the Christians admitted into heavenly glory would be a glaring absurdity.

And totaly irrelavant to this conversation.

And those people will still say it's wrong and say whatever. And we will still say it's beneficial to have the prayers of the righteous.

Have you got anything to say about prayer to deceased saints?

So, in the end, ask the Saints for prayers if you wish (as I do at times), or not.

Deceased Saints. Prayer to deceased Saints. It's an interesting topic, please join us, Madame D!

 

[Rick Otto]

We ask for their prayers to Christ just like we do other brethren.

Which apostle did that?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

With three major differences:

The first is that the saints Catholics pray to are dead, which is strictly forbidden by scripture.

As the Fathers speak both in favor of and encourage our asking Saints, Angels and all the Hosts in Heaven to pray for us on our behalf while at the same time denouncing the pagan practices regarding the dead - it occurs to me that they did not consider the scripture against the latter to apply to asking those already in Heaven to pray for us. So I do not think it is a slam dunk that scriptures forbid this practice.

For that matter, how do Catholics even know the "saints" they're praying to are in Heaven, particularly when Catholics are constantly telling us that it's presumptuous to say that we can know who is and isn't saved? How do Catholics know they're not in Purgatory or, worse yet, were not saved and are now in Hell?

For "Saints" proper it is believed in faith that we know. For others it would be presumed, but am not sure why that should prevent me from asking my dad to pray for me or even talking to him. If I am wrong about him, God rest his soul, am not sure why it is automatically wrong for me.

The second is that Catholics do not regard saints the same as the living. Catholics frequently ascribe supernatural abilities to saints and ascribe authority that belongs only to Christ to saints.

Am not sure I understand or agree in that generalization. It has not been my experience. If the point is some people take this too far to the level of superstition I agree and the Church speaks out against such things. The fact that some people sin in doing such things tells me only that people are people, not that praying to Saints is wrong.

The third is that saints are neither omnipresent or omnipotent and cannot hear the millions of prayers by Catholics, nor can they fulfil them.

I would agree a person sitting in a Church praying cannot possibly hear all the people wanting that person to pray for them. That is a limitation for all humans living here.

I cannot however assume that a Saint in Heaven is bound by the same limitations we are or maybe that God does not somehow allow it. What does time mean after death, does the person have a body yet (if yet still means anything, what kind of body....?? Without knowing all these things about those who have gone before us it is unclear to me how we can claim to know what is or is not possible.

The teaching is not that we know how it is done or that every prayer request given to a Saint is fulfilled by God. In fact we know many prayer requests go unanswered or at least we are not given the answer we asked for.

If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, it does not follow that the righteous man is granting my request when God answers. It is still God acting, but it does indicate such a person is real Prayer Warrior. The idea of someone in Heaven praying for us in Heaven is no different than asking them to pray for us if we knew them in this life. If the statement regarding a righteous person's prayer here is true, it would only seem so much more true and powerful for a person praying on our behalf in Heaven. Seems to me anyway.

 

[Dorothea]

Which apostle did that?

James told us that. It's not off topic. It's praying for each other. We ask our brethren in Christ for prayers. There's no distinction on "where" they may be. We are alive in Christ, bond together in His Body.

That's all I have to say on this topic because I'm getting upset from the constant lecturing and chiding over what I do in my prayers and faith. I really need to leave this forum.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Which apostle did that?

How many Apostles used the word Trinity?
Am not sure what an absence of capturing this practice proves either way. And given Christianity is new and most of them are documented definitely among the first Christians to receive such an honor (martyrs ) the question over reaches. We know the immediate predecessors of the Apostles record the practice people by the end of the 1st century and absolutely no objections against it. The absence of objection in the 1st century to a practice being claimed today as un-bibilcal today at the very least suggests they did not interpret those scriptures as some do now.

Also the idea of honoring the holy and heros of the faith, showing them great reverence, even having shrines, is also a very old Jewish tradition, and all the Apostles are Jews. So the notion that the Apostles would see the OT scriptures forbidding pagan practices regarding the dead as applying to what we call "Saints" today goes against that tradition.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Maybe, but they wouldn't be addressing anything we are trying to discuss here anyway. What part of that verse instructs, illustrates, or examples us praying TO saints?
It mentions the prayers, but it doesn't say anything about who those prayers were addressed to. I'm tempted to think you are more interested in causing a derail than in discussing the topic: praying to deceased saints.

I guess if one assumed God needed help with prayers directed at Him alone (like Santa's helpers??) or that He "missed" some then the question of who these prayers are "directed" at is moot. But am not sure it follows we can dismiss this verse as being derailing because it depicts the very thing we are discussing. In fact it shows someone in Heaven offering a prayer up on behalf of people still on earth.

This objection then becomes a two edge sword on several levels. Even if all these prayers are "addressed to" God alone the verse still depicts an act by a person in Heaven with prayers from people on earth.

They are shown doing something with those prayers, which means they have the ability to do so, regardless of how they "obtained" or "heard" or "to whom" these prayers were addressed. The foundation of intercession on our behalf requires people in Heaven having such an ability. Which BTW is also an ability depicted in scripture (OT and NT) as something other "hosts" in Heaven have and absolutely do use. Hosts which are also not omni-anything.

Another point of this objection is that John depicting something occurring which we now call intercession by someone in Heaven and you are correct in that he is not making it a teaching point or even a major point of the vision. It is a background element.

But to be able to use something as background means the audience would be accepting of and familiar enough with that concept that it does not need to be expounded upon. Which is also in keeping with John's vision being one of the last works of an Apostle preserved for us and supports what we already know of early Christians asking the martyrs to intercede on their behalf. They are already doing it, so John can use it as background to his vision.
(BTW also in keeping with one understanding of John's Revelation as being a coded detailed reference to the Mass - which even in those days included requests for just such intercessions (by martyrs).

 

[Publius]

The idea of someone in Heaven praying for us in Heaven is no different than asking them to pray for us if we knew them in this life.

Exept for two things:

a) the Bible probhits us from praying to the dead
b) the Bible prohibits us from praying to anyone but God

If the statement regarding a righteous person's prayer here is true, it would only seem so much more true and powerful for a person praying on our behalf in Heaven. Seems to me anyway.

The key words being "seems to me". But the Bible doesn't say that prayers are made any more or less efficacious depending on who is praying them or where they happen to be praying them from.