Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

[Dylan Michael]

Exept for two things:

a) the Bible probhits us from praying to the dead
b) the Bible prohibits us from praying to anyone but God

Verses please.

 

[Publius]

Verses please.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Leviticus 19:31
Leviticus 20:6
Leviticus 20:27
Deuteronomy 18:11
1 Samuel 28:3
Isaiah 8:19
2 Kings 21:6

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Exept for two things:

a) the Bible probhits us from praying to the dead
b) the Bible prohibits us from praying to anyone but God

If that were true then how to explain the immediate predecessors of the Apostles doing what is now claimed to be prohibited?

They asked for martyrs to intercede for them while at the same time fighting against necromancy and other similar pagan practices using the same scriptures that are now being claimed to prohibit intercession of the saints.

The key words being "seems to me". But the Bible doesn't say that prayers are made any more or less efficacious depending on who is praying them or where they happen to be praying them from.

The Bible clearly says the prayers of some are indeed better than prayers of others James 516, though it is not phrased in that matter. Given that verse and those in Heaven being most righteous, it should "seem to" anyone that the statement in James would certainly apply to their prayers.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Leviticus 19:31
Leviticus 20:6
Leviticus 20:27
Deuteronomy 18:11
1 Samuel 28:3
Isaiah 8:19
2 Kings 21:6

Again that is someone's interpretation of those prohibitions. And that interpretation is in direct conflict with the early Church asking (praying) martyrs to intercede for them while at the same time using the above verses to denounce pagan practices concerning the dead. Obviously they did not interpret those verses as making it wrong to ask martyrs (Saints) to pray for us.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

If that were true then how to explain the immediate predecessors of the Apostles doing what is now claimed to be prohibited?

One of the closest so called church fathers, Iraneus, AD 180, didn't even know how old Jesus was, or how long his ministry lasted.They had no more knowledge than what we can learn by asking God and meditating in the scriptures.As the Apostles were gone you can see the wolves immediately moved in.All you have to do is read them and you know they had no first hand knowledge, and I dare say the Father of my Lord, has shown me as much as they knew and then some.

 

[Publius]

Again that is someone's interpretation of those prohibitions.

Yes, this is a very common tactic among Catholics: no matter what verse of scripture one presents, just dismiss it by saying, "Well, that's just your interpretation", even if no interpretation was offered. And then, after saying "that's just your interpretation", refuse to explain why you believe the interpretation is wrong or what you believe the correct interpretation to be.

That way, you can believe whatever you want to and any scriptural challenge to your beliefs is just another subjective opinion that you can ignore.

Or, you can consider what the scriptures say and base your beliefs upon them.

It's interesting that you dismiss these verses by saying that "it's just someone's interpretation", when no one offered an interpretation.

I'm curious: do you apply this unique hermeneutic to other areas of life, as well? I mean, if you get a ticket for running a STOP sign, do you go to court and tell the judge, "Well, Your Honor, sure, you say the sign says 'STOP', but isn't that really just your interpretation"?

Do you read the Catechism that way, too?

And that interpretation is in direct conflict with the early Church asking (praying) martyrs to intercede for them while at the same time using the above verses to denounce pagan practices concerning the dead.

Then the early Church was wrong.

Obviously they did not interpret those verses as making it wrong to ask martyrs (Saints) to pray for us.

Then you should have no problem showing us where in the Bible or the Didache we're told that it's permissible to pray to the dead.

If that were true then how to explain the immediate predecessors of the Apostles doing what is now claimed to be prohibited?

What's to explain? If they violated the Biblical prohibition of praying to the dead, then they were wrong. Scripture is always the standard, not what other men do or believe.

The Bible clearly says the prayers of some are indeed better than prayers of others James 516, though it is not phrased in that matter.

So, if it is not "phrased in that matter", how do you know that's what it says? All it says is that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. It doesn't say that the dead in Heaven are any more righteous or that one's righteousness (which, as we all know is really not our righteousness but Christ's righteousness imputed to us) makes a prayer any more or less efficacious.

What was it you were just saying about "Oh, that's just your interpretation"?

Given that verse and those in Heaven being most righteous

How do you know they're "most righteous"? How do you know they're righeous at all, when Jesus very clearly said that no one is righteous but God alone (Mark 10:18)?

it should "seem to" anyone that the statement in James would certainly apply to their prayers.

So, let me try to understand your reasoning: a verse that says "don't pray to the dead" is "just someone's interpretation", while we should take your word that verses that "are not phrased in that matter" and "seem to" shoud be taken at face value?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

One of the closest so called church fathers, Iraneus, AD 180, didn't even know how old Jesus was, or how long his ministry lasted.They had no more knowledge than what we can learn by asking God and meditating in the scriptures.As the Apostles were gone you can see the wolves immediately moved in.All you have to do is read them and you know they had no first hand knowledge, and I dare say the Father of my Lord, has shown me as much as they knew and then some.

Why cast dispersions, assertions about a Father (and whatever "closest" means) rather than addressing the point.

Nearly a hundred years before Irenaeus is born Christians are already regularly asking martyrs to intercede while also attacking pagan practices using the same scripture quoted here to refute intercessory prayer.

The fact they are doing this makes it possible for John to have intercessory prayer depicted in his vision as a background element. For people routinely asking martyrs to pray for them it would only be natural that the elders in Heaven are shown interceding on our behalf.

And that means they are doing this regularly while at least one Apostle is living, John because he is able to write this. And if so many Christians are doing this and it is an error, why would John not attack a widespread practice rather than use something in his writing that could only be seen as an act on our behalf by someone in Heaven (see definition of intercede). That is hardly a rebuke.
Are we going to now claim Saint John fell in writing this and is now a wolf too?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

They are not shown interceding.
Interceding to who? God?
God is not threatening any saints in this vision.
It dosen't show how " the elders and the 4 beasts" came to be in posession of the bowls that "represent" prayers, or when.
And later they are given to an angel, to make an offering, and we know that God always supplies the offering.
It is you who are speculating, and your speculations are not backed up by Christ.

 

[Dorothea]

There is a problem with this view of "praying" to Saints, as if they're God or gods. Wrong. We ASK them to pray for us. We ASK for their prayers just like anybody else. Here's a simple example that I say on occasion:

St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco, please pray for my son.

Mother of God (or Most Holy Theotokos), please pray for us.

St. Nektarios, please pray for my son.

THAT'S IT.

And then when asking for prayers from family and friends:

Person's name: Please pray for my son, ___________.

Family member: please pray for __________.

No difference. Why? Because we're all one Body ALIVE in Christ. There is no one DEAD in Christ. That's an oxymoron.

So, whether I ask my friend, Lisa, to pray for my son or St. Nektarios to pray for my son, it's the same, with the only difference being one is in the very presence of God with no distance and no veil upon their eyes. God works through His saints, and joins them together. With God, this happens.

 

[Rick Otto]

Again that is someone's interpretation of those prohibitions. And that interpretation is in direct conflict with the early Church asking (praying) martyrs to intercede for them while at the same time using the above verses to denounce pagan practices concerning the dead. Obviously they did not interpret those verses as making it wrong to ask martyrs (Saints) to pray for us.

Which apostle prayed to a deceased, bur still "alive in Christ" Saint?

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

Which apostle did that?
​

James told us that. It's not off topic. It's praying for each other. We ask our brethren in Christ for prayers. There's no distinction on "where" they may be. We are alive in Christ, bond together in His Body.

It is off topic. Check the thread title. Praying to, not for.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

As I said in my previous post here, there are no Scriptures which instruct believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. And there are no Scriptures which encourage, or even mentions, believers in Christ asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. However, Scripture does tell us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). Scripture also describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us: "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God" (Romans 8:26-27; 1 John 5:14-15).

Scripture also tells us that as believers in Christ, we can approach God's throne ourselves: "Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need" (Hebrews 4:16). Therefore, if we have the Son of God and the Spirit of God interceding for us before God the Father and we can boldly approach the throne of God with confidence, than why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us before God? The only time Scripture mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination. The Scriptures clearly condemns such practices. We do not need to pray to Mary or to the saints, because we can approach God ourselves with confidence. The truth of this matter is this: There are no Scriptures instructing believers in Christ on earth to pray to Mary or to the saints in heaven. Praying to Mary or to the saints in heaven is clearly unbiblical and should be avoided. I'll add now that we have direct access to God and only one Mediator between Him and us - Jesus Christ.

 

[Ronald]

The disciples asked Jesus how to pray. He said, "Our Father ...". We pray to the Father directly. Since Pentecost, we've had direct access to God. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit which means He lives in us. Why would you have someone else be an intermediary between us and God? A dead saint? We are all saints. They cannot answer us anyway, only God can. So, in essence it is a waist of time to pray to Mary or some dead saint and btw, we can confess our sins to one another but it is not required to go to a priest to do this. Again, direct access means we speak directly to God!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Jesus does mention those asking and agreeing on earth here

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

The disciples asked Jesus how to pray. He said, "Our Father ...". We pray to the Father directly. Since Pentecost, we've had direct access to God. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit which means He lives in us. Why would you have someone else be an intermediary between us and God? A dead saint? We are all saints. They cannot answer us anyway, only God can. So, in essence it is a waist of time to pray to Mary or some dead saint and btw, we can confess our sins to one another but it is not required to go to a priest to do this. Again, direct access means we speak directly to God!

Amen brother!

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Jesus does mention those asking and agreeing on earth here

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Amen sister!

 

[Rick Otto]

Take over here guys, I have to go wash the incense out of my apostle costume & polish my holy hardware.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, this is a very common tactic among Catholics: no matter what verse of scripture one presents, just dismiss it by saying, "Well, that's just your interpretation", even if no interpretation was offered. And then, after saying "that's just your interpretation", refuse to explain why you believe the interpretation is wrong or what you believe the correct interpretation to be.

Am not sure calling this "my" or "your" interpretation is accurate and certainly not what I wrote. Yes, I hold the view but so have thousands of years of people, so it is more proper to call it the Church's. I find it not particularly helpful to personalize the discussion either.

The counter point was made that scripture forbids our asking Saints to pray for us, to intercede. When asked for specific reference verses were then referenced. Obviously our individual understanding of those scriptures would have to be different, otherwise there would be conflict between our understanding of scripture and this practice. That is not the case. And as we differ and both have the same verses, I find it rather unproductive to focus there.

Setting those differences aside, I simply pointed out the it would not be possible for early Christians, especially with predominately Jewish leadership quite familiar with those same verses to have people asking martyrs to pray for them if their understanding of those verses matched those opposed to this practice today.

That way, you can believe whatever you want to and any scriptural challenge to your beliefs is just another subjective opinion that you can ignore.

Am not ignoring it, simply think it is rather an obvious no brainer that we do NOT agree on what those verses mean in regards/or as it applies to asking Saints to pray for us.

Or, you can consider what the scriptures say and base your beliefs upon them.

This suggests Catholics do not consider what scriptures say and do not base our beliefs on them. Which besides being untrue and baiting, it goes off topic.

It's interesting that you dismiss these verses by saying that "it's just someone's interpretation", when no one offered an interpretation.

How could asking in what reasonable world Saint John could allow his flock to ask martyrs to pray for them IF Saint John understood those scriptures as forbidding that practice be looked at as dismissive?

I'm curious: do you apply this unique hermeneutic to other areas of life, as well? I mean, if you get a ticket for running a STOP sign, do you go to court and tell the judge, "Well, Your Honor, sure, you say the sign says 'STOP', but isn't that really just your interpretation"?

Maybe I should tell the judge that less than 30 years after the law was established and taught, it was completely corrupted and from that point on no lawyer or judge had any "first hand knowledge" and that all I have to do is read the law and I know myself what it means.

Then the early Church was wrong.

Then we would have to assume Saint John knew this and would have corrected this "error" that had "immediately moved in". Instead he depicts something in his vision which, no matter what one believes it shows, would be supportive of people holding this "error" rather than correcting them.

Then you should have no problem showing us where in the Bible or the Didache we're told that it's permissible to pray to the dead.

The point was that they were doing the very thing being claimed here as wrong according to scripture AND YET they knew these scriptures as Jews first and then Christians, yet are still asking for the prayers of martyrs in Heaven to intercede on their behalf to the Lord. That would make no sense at all if they understood those scriptures as forbidding those prayers.

What's to explain? If they violated the Biblical prohibition of praying to the dead, then they were wrong. Scripture is always the standard, not what other men do or believe.

Except we have the Apostles not only not "correcting" something already being done, but Saint John if not depicting it being done in his vision, depicting what would represent it to those already doing it. Furthermore they are not just doing it, they are doing as part of their regular worship (as we still do at every Mass today).

So, if it is not "phrased in that matter", how do you know that's what it says? All it says is that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. It doesn't say that the dead in Heaven are any more righteous or that one's righteousness (which, as we all know is really not our righteousness but Christ's righteousness imputed to us) makes a prayer any more or less efficacious.

It is simple really. No one is claiming that ONLY the prayers of the righteous are efficacious, clearly God can answer the prayers of any one. But "availeth much" does mean if one had a choice of Prayer Warriors, a righteous person would be a good one to have on your team.

And yes we could say some very righteous people have walked among us. But certainly those in Heaven just by their presence there are undoubtedly righteous. So without question those in Heaven would make great Prayer Warriors because without question their prayers would "availeth much".

How do you know they're "most righteous"? How do you know they're righeous at all, when Jesus very clearly said that no one is righteous but God alone (Mark 10:18)?

Because they are in Heaven and a person could not be there and not be righteous. The unrighteous have a different destination.

So, let me try to understand your reasoning: a verse that says "don't pray to the dead" is "just someone's interpretation", while we should take your word that verses that "are not phrased in that matter" and "seem to" shoud be taken at face value?

No my logic was that the early Church asking martyrs to intercede with the Lord on their behalf during their regular worship would not be able to do that if the Apostles and the predominately Jewish leadership immediately replacing them (and who undoubtedly were leading some of these worship prayers when in attendance) understood those OT verses as meaning "don't pray to the dead" and applied that to asking martyrs for something.

If the Apostles and the leadership they installed thought those verses applied to asking the martyrs to put in a good word for us, how could they participate and sanction those prayers in worship?

 

[Dorothea]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

Which apostle did that?
​

It is off topic. Check the thread title. Praying to, not for.

Sure. Whatever. I think the OP probably meant what I explained but because they have an axe to grind with anyone who believes in the Body of Christ as a whole through the Spirit, the question is phrased wrong.

This topic never ends. The simple answer is don't ask the righteous in God to pray for you, and those who want to will. The end.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

There is a problem with this view of "praying" to Saints, as if they're God or gods. Wrong. We ASK them to pray for us. We ASK for their prayers just like anybody else. Here's a simple example that I say on occasion:

St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco, please pray for my son.

Mother of God (or Most Holy Theotokos), please pray for us.

St. Nektarios, please pray for my son.

THAT'S IT.

And then when asking for prayers from family and friends:

Person's name: Please pray for my son, ___________.

Family member: please pray for __________.

No difference. Why? Because we're all one Body ALIVE in Christ. There is no one DEAD in Christ. That's an oxymoron.

So, whether I ask my friend, Lisa, to pray for my son or St. Nektarios to pray for my son, it's the same, with the only difference being one is in the very presence of God with no distance and no veil upon their eyes. God works through His saints, and joins them together. With God, this happens.

If it that wern't so sad, I'd be rolling out of my chair right now.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
As for your "holy mother of god". No such critter.
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold , his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold , thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said , Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
His mother and brothers were still outside.