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I really don't think you have anything they would want, hot dogs, burgers and coke are not on every ones favourite food list,Naah, haven't you heard? They just hate our way of life.
OK, so...??? (Not sure how this relates to my post?)She was living in that 8X10 bomb shelter during the Lebanese Civil War when things were not so peachy.
It had to do with more than that, it was not simply Maronites being stubborn or trying to oppress Muslims. And while the Maronites committed atrocities they were nothing compared to what the PLO/ANM committed.As I said in my early post, this had nothing to do with immigration, it had to do with Maronite Christians refusing to give Muslims a say in government proportionate to their numbers. As you know, the Maronites committed horrible atrocities during that conflict.
I really don't think you have anything they would want, hot dogs, burgers and coke are not on every ones favourite food list,
I think it would have more to do with going to other countries and killing people, it's the perfect way to get people to dislike you and make them come after you, you would do it to them so it's no surprise they should want to do it to you.
And it's a silly argument, as discussed. Terrorists can cross borders legally on visas. They don't need to "sneak in" because they're not trying to immigrate.The argument is that an insecure border can result in terrorists crossing.
OK, so...??? (Not sure how this relates to my post?)
It had to do with more than that, it was not simply Maronites being stubborn or trying to oppress Muslims. And while the Maronites committed atrocities they were nothing compared to what the PLO/ANM committed.he entire Lebanese Civil War.
The real problem and cause of the Lebanese Civil War was a number of outside (non-Lebanese) interests fighting their battles with each other in Lebanon. Much of this had to do with what these outside interests wanted Lebanon to do and how they wanted Lebanon controlled; it wasn't the result of Maronites suppressing Muslims and wanting to keep it that way. The Lebanese people, Maronite and Muslim (and Druze and others) generally wanted Lebanon for the Lebanese, regardless of religion. The Muslim groups that instigated the war were outside forces.
I wonder about Brigitte's sincerity because I have family and friends who lived through the Lebanese Civil War as well as family and friends who lived there before and after the war. I have never met a person - Lebanese or Armenian-Lebanese - who shares her radical views.
Of course, they were Maronites as well.
But yeah, driving around Beirut with Palestinians tied to the back of your bumper, not nice.
Now you want to bet that recounting all these atrocities committed by Maronite Christians during the Lebanese Civil War won't change "Einstein's" beliefs one iota?
And there are, of course, many, many Lebanese Christians (Maronite and non) who support Hezbollah, as well as the Palestinian cause. The famous singer Julia Boutros, who is herself from a Maronite family (her father is Maronite and her mother is Palestinian-Armenian), comes to mind. She sings a lot of pro-Hezbollah and pro-Palestine songs.
I don't have much of a problem with your post other than the first two sentences which are pretty typical of your well-known anti-Christian bias.The thing is that Lebanese Christians pretty much invented Arab nationalism! And it was a Palestinian Christian who assassinated Robert F. Kennedy because of his support for the State of Israel. Originally the Shi'ites of Lebanon were the least political faction. But since all the Palestinian camps were located in south Lebanon where they live, every-time the Israelis bombed those camps the Shi'ites would get hit as well. That's why they developed such an antipathy towards Israel. I once asked a prominent Palestinian how Palestinian Christians felt about HAMAS. He told me that while they didn't like the Islamist rhetoric, they tended to support them anyhow because they were the only ones still fighting Israel. If there is one thing Lebanon teaches us is that these conflicts are not really all that religious in nature. This idea of Muslims out to conquer the world is just us vs. them nonsense, a holdover from the Cold War, only the names have changed. As Edward Said (another Palestinian Christian) put it in his book Covering Islam, we have now made Islam the great "other" to replace Communism.
Or so she says, anyway. Her critics seem to think she exaggerates her perspective and that her life was not what she makes it out to be during the war. I know plenty of people, including family, who lived through the war and while it was no walk in the park it wasn't quite as dire for them as she makes her past to be.My point that this was the perspective from which she viewed the Lebanese Civil War.
I wouldn't say what the Maronites did was worse than the PLO - the PLO did their fair share of atrocities against Christians and other muslims as well.For uninitiated, the ANM is the Arab Nationalist Movement started by George Habash, a Palestinian Christian. He also founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and brought about the Communist Revolution in Yemen. I wouldn't say what they did was worse the Marionites. Every tit for tat I can see has the Marionites coming out way ahead as far as racking up the body count and killing civilians.
So you don't buy that outside interests and forces were mostly responsible for the Civil War in Lebanon then you go on to list three outside interests while ignoring others like Nasser/Egypt... So, it's fine if you choose not to buy it but you did support it, albeit unwittingly.That I don't buy. Israel was doing most of the instigating originally if we don't count Palestinians living in Lebanon. Syrian intervention came later. The Lebanese Hizbullah was inspired by the Iranian Revolution who does give it some support, but the movement was largely homegrown.
I'm not sure what the Malikites' involvement ever was and I didn't think they even knew Arabic, but OK.The first class I ever taught on Middle East history was in 1989 towards the end of the Civil War. All the women in my class were Americans and all the males were from the Middle East, mostly Lebanese with one Syrian. I noticed a number of things. The Malikite Christian praised the literary beauty of Qur'an to the skies and insisted there was nothing like it in Arabic. He got along fine with the Sunni. But the Sunni hated the Syrian. I've forgotten all the dynamics of that class but sometimes I felt like I was trying to stop the Civil War from breaking out in my classroom.
Good post, I quoted only the last sentence because that says it all. It seems to me that people who like to over-simplify the Lebanese Civil War tend to be doing it in order to push a bias of some sort. When I talk to my family and friends, the ones who experienced it, they tend to be unable or unwilling to place blame on one particular faction. They tend to see all the factions as being pretty bad but having valid points. The most common answer I get from people - Armenian and Lebanese, Christian and Muslim - is "It's complicated". My dad was frustrating to talk to about it - not his fault, but because it was complex for him. One time he would sound like he was very anti-Maronite. Another he'd sound very anti-Muslim. Another he'd sound very anti-Syrian. As I grew older I figured out that he wasn't contradicting himself, he was being honest and I was figuring out that it was indeed complicated and not cut and dry. I also was learning that there is a huge difference between the factions themselves and the people of Lebanon.Life is just not as simple as either Ms. Gabriel or some people on the other side seem to want to paint it.
Um, you don't know the difference between immigrating to and traveling through Mexico. Or the fact that Mexico is perfectly OK with central American's invading across our border as they pass through Mexico.Uh, no. Because most of the immigrants coming through our southern border are from Central America. If Mexico was more effective at prosecuting their own immigration laws, those Central Americans wouldn't be able to get here in the first place.
I don't have much of a problem with your post other than the first two sentences which are pretty typical of your well-known anti-Christian bias.
"Lebanese Christians" did not "pretty much [invent] Arab Nationalism" just because there were Arabic Christians involved in creating Arab Nationalism. The Christian interest in Arab Nationalism had more to do with anti-Ottoman motives whereas Muslim Arab Nationalists didn't mind Ottoman rule so much. Lebanese Arab Nationalists cared more about an independent Lebanon free from the Ottoman rule.
As for Sirhan Sirhan who assasinated Kennedy, while he was born into Christianity he became an occultist and was an occultist when he killed Kennedy. Even if he weren't, even if he were still a "Christian", you think one man's depraved act is some kind of evidence that all or most Arab Christians "invented" Pan Arab Nationalism?
I wouldn't say what the Maronites did was worse than the PLO - the PLO did their fair share of atrocities against Christians and other muslims as well.
So you don't buy that outside interests and forces were mostly responsible for the Civil War in Lebanon then you go on to list three outside interests while ignoring others like Nasser/Egypt... So, it's fine if you choose not to buy it but you did support it, albeit unwittingly.
I'm not sure what the Malikites' involvement ever was and I didn't think they even knew Arabic, but OK.
I would think there would be much better examples to use of Christian Arab nationalists than Sirhan Sirhan. What about Jurji Zeydan or Ibrahim al-Yaziji? Why pick someone who did something violent?
Also talking about Lebanese Arab Christians and what they may or may not have done in the context of a discussion on Maronite actions during the war strikes me as pretty bizarre, given how even today a sizable portion of the Maronite community do not accept being called 'Arab'
given how quickly the Eastern Chalcedonians adapted to Arabic after the Islamic invasions (and some of the individual Arab tribes had been within the Byzantine sphere of influence for several centuries by that point anyway). Of those who would eventually lose their Syriac mother tongue, the Maronites ceased speaking it daily much more recently (16th century or so, vs. 13th or so for the Melkites), so that might help explain why they often still don'[ accept being classed as Arabs). As far as I know, EO participation in the civil war was minimal and did not include forming any kind of Greek Orthodox militia or whatever. To find EO involved in that sort of thing, you should look to other places, like Palestine.
It looks like you too have a narrative you'd like to sell regarding Lebanon and its civil war, Smaneck.
If anything, the point and the lesson learned from the Lebanese Civil War should be that religion is not the real reason for war and fighting - power and other interests are. But it seems people are still all too willing to use it as an excuse to be religiously bigoted.
By the way, great video, BEAUTIFUL music!
Only because people are all too quick to label Muslims as the uniquely violent community.
Yet two generations ago they were the champions of Arab Nationalism!
There really isn't that much difference between Syriac and the Levantine dialect of Arabic.
I don't think it is any accident that Arabs were able to quickly conquer the Aramaic parts of the Byzantine Empire but not the Greek-speaking parts. I think Aramaic speaking Christians whether Malikites, Jacobites or Monophysites felt more cultural affinity with the Arab conquerors than they did their Greek-speaking overlords.
I'm just old enough to remember what happened.
What other language would the Malikites have spoken? They make up about 5% of the population of Lebanon and have about the highest education level. They are passionately proud of their Arabic heritage.
The Melkites (Melchites, Malkites...not "Malikites"...the word comes from Syriac, not Arabic) spoke their own dialect of Syriac (Christian Palestinian Aramaic) until around the 14th century or so, and continued producing manuscripts in the language for church use for perhaps a few centuries after that.
And 10-15 generations ago, they still spoke Syriac as their mother tongue. What's your point? Are you English because you're typing in English? Especially since they recognize Arabic as being forced on them, I don't think this is a very respectful road to go down.
Speaking as a "Monophysite" who has studied his church's history, you couldn't be more wrong.
The Melkites (Melchites, Malkites...not "Malikites"...the word comes from Syriac, not Arabic)
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