Why We Are Born, Why We Are Here: PCE answers

[bling]

I provided a link to a thread that only partially discusses the scriptures that
speak of reward, against which that one parable falls flat.
You didn't even bother to acknowledge 2 John 1:8 which speaks
of reward on more than one level. Full Reward? Lost Reward? No Reward?

The Reward Of A Wise Master Builder
Are you sure you are interpreting "the workers in the vineyard" correctly?
Are they not all workers?
Is this grace or work? Salvation or reward?
Romans 11:
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of work; otherwise grace is no longer grace.
But if it is of work, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

No matter what “we do”, if it is good than it is because we allowed the Spirit to work within and through us to accomplish that good. As Christ’s says Luke 17: 10… when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” If we fail to do all we were told to do, than we need God’s mercy and there is a lot we could be doing and do not do, so we are not talking about being rewarded for exceeding the requirements, but the degree of forgiveness we will need in the end.

The “full reward” in 2 John 1:8 is Christianity in this life and heaven in the next life, read the next few verses really talk about joining the antichrist which means losing heaven 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. There is nothing about degrees of rewards in that verse.

The “full reward” is heaven, think about it, no matter what you do here on earth does not entitle you to anything, let alone something greater than another Christian.

You did not address: Luke 17: 7 “Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? 8 Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? 9 Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”

How would you interpret the parable of the vineyard and Luke 17:7-11?



From your, “The Reward Of A Wise Master Builder”

This is talking about in this life Paul’s joy coming from the churches he started by the Spirit working through him.

The “works” we do here on earth might not withstand the test, but that does not mean we loss something in heaven, unless it is friends we worked with who fell away.

 

[bling]

Hmm, maybe you misunderstood me a bit. Love and sin are mutually exclusive as God and evil are mutually exclusive. So, yes, He hates sin while nonetheless loving the sinner. He created us, He knows every hair on our heads, He knows our potential along with our weaknesses and limitations which includes the ugly and foolish pride that separates us from Him, and His whole desire and purpose in any case has always been for our highest good because that's the nature of love. Anyway, love literally fulfills the law because it excludes sin-and that's why the greatest commandments are what they are BTW.

And while He draws us to that love, that righteousness, He doesn't demand perfect love, and therefore absolute sinlessness, in this life, just that we be on that road, with Him. Love is the measure of our nearness to Him. And He'll perfect it in the next life.

This is good and stated well.

 

[bling]

Yes, we do all those things until we begin to love. And, again, that love is both a gift, of His nature to us, and a choice, of our embracing and expressing or acting upon that gift, in which case it grows even more. He wants us involved, our participation, because love is a choice or else it's not really love at all.

We must undertand that God's purpose is to produce something out of this whole endeavor known as creation, something better and grander than He began with. He wants us to be like Himself, to the greatest extent possible. He wants us to be something, rather than otherwise worthless while forgiven sinners. He never created us to sin, after all. And apparently the whole process takes time, and our participation as we're willing to turn from darkness to light.

"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

We are not trying to return to the way Adam and Eve had it in the Garden prior to their sinning, since they sinned with all they had going for them. They both lacked Love:
God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the first being is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?

Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all, but is totally for the sake of others [which would also be God’s sake])?

So, if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would He be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gift He could give to man?

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So, to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill this Mission?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity, this will enable us to fulfill our mission.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it, so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

The Garden is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective and we can thank Adam and Eve for going through that example and providing us and them with that knowledge.

Sin is not only inevitable, but it is unfortunately necessary for humans.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness, we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.

This world is “very good”, but not “perfect” like heaven is perfect and does not have the same purpose as heaven. This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

Death is not “bad” in and of itself, but the way good people go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

It is truly tragic and unfortunate that Christ had to be tortured, humiliated and murdered in order to help willing humans in their fulfilling of their objective, but God is willing to make huge sacrifices to help willing individuals. It is also very sad other humans who had the opportunity to fulfill their primary earthly objective continued to refuse God’s charity to the point they would never of their own free will accepted God’s charity. These God Loved individuals will thus go to their death and destruction as a help to some other humans who have not refused God’s help to the point of never accepting His help.

 

[Minister Monardo]

The “works” we do here on earth might not withstand the test, but that does not mean we loss something in heaven, unless it is friends we worked with who fell away.

And what is it that these friends have lost, if they had worked with you?
By "falling away" you mean from the faith, right?
Matthew 23:
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[fhansen]

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

Yes! But there's a reason we don't readily accept it; there's a reason that Adam lacked it to begin with. We simply don't appreciate it- until we begin to, to gain the necessary wisdom. And God is its source, the source of love. Sin/evil is not necessary in the absolute sense, but, unfortunately perhaps, is helpful nonetheless, like a hot stove is helpful in teaching us one thing: not to touch the hot stove! So by touching, by knowing, evil we can learn to hate and shun it. It's not only our own sin but the sin of others that may harm and victimize us that should help sicken us of man's way, apart from God as we are in this world that we're born into. And sin remains a problem; forgiveness only avails for those who care, who accept it as they turn to God in faith, and also who then practice that forgiveness (that love) themselves, once forgiven by God (Matt 6).

 

[bling]

And what is it that these friends have lost, if they had worked with you?
By "falling away" you mean from the faith, right?
Matthew 23:
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

OK.

There was a lot more to my post, will you address it?

 

[bling]

Yes! But there's a reason we don't readily accept it; there's a reason that Adam lacked it to begin with. We simply don't appreciate it- until we begin to, to gain the necessary wisdom. And God is its source, the source of love. Sin/evil is not necessary in the absolute sense, but, unfortunately perhaps, is helpful nonetheless, like a hot stove is helpful in teaching us one thing: not to touch the hot stove! So by touching, by knowing, evil we can learn to hate and shun it. It's not only our own sin but the sin of others that may harm and victimize us that should help sicken us of man's way, apart from God as we are in this world that we're born into. And sin remains a problem; forgiveness only avails for those who care, who accept it as they turn to God in faith, and also who then practice that forgiveness (that love) themselves, once forgiven by God (Matt 6).

The reason we do not “accept it” includes: the perceived pleasures of sin for a season, no one likes to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity, we need to experience the burden in our conscience of hurting people in the past (sin) and we need to understand what God is offering.

Adam and Eve “lacked Godly type Love from the beginning because it cannot be made instinctive to a person (that would make it robotic) and God just cannot force His Love on us so we Love like He does, because that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun which is not Loving or a way to get Godly type Love.

We cannot appreciate having Godly type Love until we have at least some Godly type Love, God’s Love can appear very foolish (He may get nothing out of it and it is very costly to Him).

Like the prodigal son it does not take a lot of “wisdom” to know you are going to be starving to death in a pigsty and servants of your father are much better off. Yes, the young son could have been macho to the point of being willing to take the punishment he fully deserved and stayed and die.

For at least a while (until our hearts really become hardened) we will try to relieve our conscience from the burden of past sins, which can include alcohol, drugs, false gods, work, sex and even trying to do good stuff, but the only true relieve comes with accepting God’s forgiveness.

Again, sin is made easy, it has perceived pleasure and creates an unbelievable huge debt, that debt being forgiven by God and our accepting that forgiveness allows us the receive an unbelievable huge Love, so I do not see how humans on earth can obtain this Love without first sinning?

 

[Minister Monardo]

There was a lot more to my post, will you address it?

I will address your post the same way you addressed mine.

OK.

 

[fhansen]

The reason we do not “accept it” includes: the perceived pleasures of sin for a season, no one likes to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity, we need to experience the burden in our conscience of hurting people in the past (sin) and we need to understand what God is offering.

Adam and Eve “lacked Godly type Love from the beginning because it cannot be made instinctive to a person (that would make it robotic) and God just cannot force His Love on us so we Love like He does, because that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun which is not Loving or a way to get Godly type Love.

We cannot appreciate having Godly type Love until we have at least some Godly type Love, God’s Love can appear very foolish (He may get nothing out of it and it is very costly to Him).

Like the prodigal son it does not take a lot of “wisdom” to know you are going to be starving to death in a pigsty and servants of your father are much better off. Yes, the young son could have been macho to the point of being willing to take the punishment he fully deserved and stayed and die.

For at least a while (until our hearts really become hardened) we will try to relieve our conscience from the burden of past sins, which can include alcohol, drugs, false gods, work, sex and even trying to do good stuff, but the only true relieve comes with accepting God’s forgiveness.

Again, sin is made easy, it has perceived pleasure and creates an unbelievable huge debt, that debt being forgiven by God and our accepting that forgiveness allows us the receive an unbelievable huge Love, so I do not see how humans on earth can obtain this Love without first sinning?

Well, it would be absolutely wrong-and absurd- for God to make us sinners, just so that we can have something to be forgiven of. But I doubt that's what you mean. Either way IMO its good for man to experience sin/evil, to experience the actual separation from God which was at the heart of Adam's disobedience and all the evil that then results when God is no longer effectively the god of man...when love-agape-is not the motivation behind our actions. The law is based on God's love but merely obeying that law does not produce in us the love that only union with Him can accomplish-so the law cannot possibly justify us.

And, yes, between our own sin and that of others we can begin to understand that something is very much missing here, very much wrong, and then when we have a way out of this mess, of the wrong we've done, at least, by experiencing God's love and forgiveness in spite of our sin, we may become convicted of it and turn to Him. Either way, separation from God is the offense, the anomaly or disorder/injustice in His creation that consitutes the state known as original sin. And that disunion guarantees that sin will abound in this world. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" John 15:5

 

[fhansen]

The reason we do not “accept it” includes: the perceived pleasures of sin for a season, no one likes to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity, we need to experience the burden in our conscience of hurting people in the past (sin) and we need to understand what God is offering.

Yes, love has a relatively humble and minor place in this world, until we begin to understand something of its inestimable value and glory, of its superiority over all the other values of this world based on concupiscence: covetousness for pride/self-glory, pleasure/lust, materialism/wealth.

 

[bling]

I will address your post the same way you addressed mine.

I am in agreement with what you said so I gave an OK, so are you saying: you are in total agreement with what I said in post 21?

 

[bling]

Well, it would be absolutely wrong-and absurd- for God to make us sinners, just so that we can have something to be forgiven of. But I doubt that's what you mean. Either way IMO its good for man to experience sin/evil, to experience the actual separation from God which was at the heart of Adam's disobedience and all the evil that then results when God is no longer effectively the god of man...when love-agape-is not the motivation behind our actions. The law is based on God's love but merely obeying that law does not produce in us the love that only union with Him can accomplish-so the law cannot possibly justify us.

And, yes, between our own sin and that of others we can begin to understand that something is very much missing here, very much wrong, and then when we have a way out of this mess, of the wrong we've done, at least, by experiencing God's love and forgiveness in spite of our sin, we may become convicted of it and turn to Him. Either way, separation from God is the offense, the anomaly or disorder/injustice in His creation that consitutes the state known as original sin. And that disunion guarantees that sin will abound in this world. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" John 15:5

I am in no way blaming God for my sinning.

The problem is: “How can God easily get humans to accept undeserved charity as charity and thus be able to Love like God Loves?”

Making the Charitable Gift extremely needed and desirable (keeps you out of hell, relieves a huge burden on your conscience, and provides you with unbelievable wonderful gifts), should work.

Forgiveness is that one gift that has the very best chance of working. Trusting (faith) God enough to accept His forgiveness, automatically results in an unbelievable huge Love.

I know we differ on the “doctrine” of original sin. Our very best all human representatives, raised (programmed) to maturity by the very best parent and with only one way to sin, sinned with the nature they had in part because they lacked this Love. We now with the knowledge of good and evil have a ton of ways to sin, so when we become mature adults we will sin, also. I believe babies are innocent (in a safe condition) and not in need to be saved, but they also have not obtained Godly type Love, which is available to mature adults. We are not going to God for forgiveness of Adam and Eve’s sin (they needed to do that).

How else, other than through forgiveness, “forgiven much Loves much”, could a person obtain Godly type Love? You cannot learn this Love, it is not instinctive, it is not something you develop and we sure cannot pay it back.

 

[fhansen]

I am in no way blaming God for my sinning.

The problem is: “How can God easily get humans to accept undeserved charity as charity and thus be able to Love like God Loves?”

Making the Charitable Gift extremely needed and desirable (keeps you out of hell, relieves a huge burden on your conscience, and provides you with unbelievable wonderful gifts), should work.

Forgiveness is that one gift that has the very best chance of working. Trusting (faith) God enough to accept His forgiveness, automatically results in an unbelievable huge Love.

I know we differ on the “doctrine” of original sin. Our very best all human representatives, raised (programmed) to maturity by the very best parent and with only one way to sin, sinned with the nature they had in part because they lacked this Love. We now with the knowledge of good and evil have a ton of ways to sin, so when we become mature adults we will sin, also. I believe babies are innocent (in a safe condition) and not in need to be saved, but they also have not obtained Godly type Love, which is available to mature adults. We are not going to God for forgiveness of Adam and Eve’s sin (they needed to do that).

How else, other than through forgiveness, “forgiven much Loves much”, could a person obtain Godly type Love? You cannot learn this Love, it is not instinctive, it is not something you develop and we sure cannot pay it back.

Yes, we love Him because He first loved us, by suffering and dying for us, for forgiving our sins, for healing our sickness, for giving us eternal life-all acts of love. He not only inspires us to love by showing it but also empowers us to do so. Our chief, simple lesson to learn above all else: man needs God or else he remains without hope, to paraphrase a teacher I'm familiar with. Man cannot control himself apart from God. Sin and death will be inevitable.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I am in agreement with what you said so I gave an OK, so are you saying: you are in total agreement with what I said in post 21?

Clearly, I am not, and neither is the Lord.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father
with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

The “full reward” is heaven,
think about it, no matter what you do here on earth does not entitle you to anything, let alone something greater than another Christian.

Take take your own advice, and think about everything you have ignored from
my posts to hold to this false idea. Do you really think I am unaware of the
reductionist Gospel that says "accept Jesus as your Savior and when you die,
you go to heaven". Yes, I know exactly where you're coming from, and it is a
place of error, which I already corrected, and you ignored. Reward is NOT
salvation. On a thread dedicated to the question "why are we here", you
choose to sit and wait.
1 Corinthians 3:
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved,
yet so as through fire.
That is your prerogative, but you are ignoring a topic that I went into considerable detail on another thread. I gave you a link, you made no effort to "think about it".
If you want to go more into that topic, go to that thread and respond to the details,
the scriptures cited in post #1.
If you are going to stick to the "heaven is the reward, and everyone's is same",
then don't bother to respond on this thread, I am finished here.
BTW, as to this quote you offered from Luke 17:
"We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty."
We do not want credit for the things we do in this life, because we want
our reward to come with the Lord; NOT in this life.
Matthew 6:
1 Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men,
to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your
Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet
before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets,
that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you,
they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not
let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.

The reward is not salvation, it is in the glory to come. Go and
learn what this means "the hope of glory". The reward is in the
reflection of HIS Glory, which is most evident on those who draw
near in this life, not sit around and talk about "works salvation".
Paul uses this analogy:
1 Corinthians 15:
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

 

[TedT]

I am in no way blaming God for my sinning.

IF I accept being a sinner in Adam by my conception then I would blame GOD for my sin but I do not accept that I am a sinner by conception in Adam...but only by my free will.

 

[bling]

Clearly, I am not, and neither is the Lord.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father
with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Do you not see eternal life in heaven with God as a wonderful reward? Since Paul and the Hebrew writer describe it as such?

Do you personally feel you “earned” or “deserve” anything from God or someone could earn or deserve more than eternal life?

I definitely believe in degrees of punishment for bad works, since that is found throughout scripture, but we are talking about degrees of: “reward/payments”, but the marvelous reward is not a payment, but a gift. I have six children and I give them “gifts” for their birthday, so how does one get a greater gift from me then the others? Do you gift your children as a reward?

Do you do good works or does the Spirit within and through you do good works if you allow Him? Do you take the credit or do you give all the credit to God?

If you do well with what you have, you will be asked and given greater responsibility (more work for the Spirit to do through you), but how is that a greater reward then those of little faith only allowing the Spirit to do a little positive work?

Lazarus in the “Rich man and Lazarus story”, provide that rich man with the very best opportunity every day until he died to experience for himself Godly type Love, but in some ways all Lazarus did was lay there each day and not curse his situation. Can you do more then Lazarus did and will you receive a greater reward then Lazarus?

Take take your own advice, and think about everything you have ignored from
my posts to hold to this false idea. Do you really think I am unaware of the
reductionist Gospel that says "accept Jesus as your Savior and when you die,
you go to heaven". Yes, I know exactly where you're coming from, and it is a
place of error, which I already corrected, and you ignored. Reward is NOT
salvation. On a thread dedicated to the question "why are we here", you
choose to sit and wait.
1 Corinthians 3:
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved,
yet so as through fire.
That is your prerogative, but you are ignoring a topic that I went into considerable detail on another thread. I gave you a link, you made no effort to "think about it".
If you want to go more into that topic, go to that thread and respond to the details,
the scriptures cited in post #1.
If you are going to stick to the "heaven is the reward, and everyone's is same",
then don't bother to respond on this thread, I am finished here.
BTW, as to this quote you offered from Luke 17:
"We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty."
We do not want credit for the things we do in this life, because we want
our reward to come with the Lord; NOT in this life.
Matthew 6:
1 Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men,
to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your
Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet
before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets,
that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you,
they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not
let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.

The reward is not salvation, it is in the glory to come. Go and
learn what this means "the hope of glory". The reward is in the
reflection of HIS Glory, which is most evident on those who draw
near in this life, not sit around and talk about "works salvation".
Paul uses this analogy:
1 Corinthians 15:
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

I am somewhat amazed by your line of thinking: Luke 17: So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”

Is there any Christian who has ever done more than what they have been told to do? Did Christ do more than He was told to do? Are we not told to be like Christ? We are told to go the extra mile already.

What “greater” reward would one Christian get over another Christian in heaven? Will you be like the servant who grumbles when they got the same as all the other servants from the vineyard, since you “worked harder and longer”? Or will you have the added joy of seeing God’s unbelievable mercy/grace/Love be generously showered on those undeserving servants?

Do you personally want to be “glorious” in heaven or have all the glory be seen as God’s glory?

Glory is not something you wear, but it is what others give to you, so should they not give that glory to God?

I read your comments and passages and commented on them, more then you commented on the Spiritual meanings to the two Parables I gave to you and the logic behind my conclusion.

Colossians 3:24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward.

Is eternal life with God in heaven a “reward”, since an inheritance is nothing, you work for to obtain?

Hebrews 11:6 and without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Here Paul is talking about unbelievers seeking him and rewarded for just seeking after him, so what reward is that?

Paul explains His reward and it is in this life and not the next life:

1 Cor. 9: 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

Paul’s Godly type Love compels Paul to do what he did, so is that Love of Paul or God?

We in this life have the privilege and honor of allowing the Spirit to work through and be a small part of the great works God can do here on earth.