Why Vaccinations Shouldn't be Optional

Zoii

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That is where so many of us are at. And why vaccines should remain optional.
Well they are not mandatory for certain cohorts eg neonates and the immunodeficient. But I really wish they were for the general community. Aside from the fact that adverse reactions are no different in rates to food allergies, there is still no study showing any long-term pathology - this despite concerns you raised. An unproven suspicion and then disbanding vaccines is a massive and dangerous over-reaction.

I say all this because one person getting an avoidable infection, places the life at risk of those who are not eligible to be immunised. It is why many schools and child minding centres wont accept your child unless they are immunised. Its why you cant cross the border in some countries unless you can demonstrate immunity. Not just humans either - try to get your dog into a dog-care centre un-immunised and see what happens.

Now vaccines are not a panacea. And this is where the infection triad comes in - Host - Agent - Environment. Control one and you break the cycle of infection. So we cant immunise for a good ol bout of gastro, so we control by reducing the reservoir of the Agent (eg control the amount of enterococcus in water), we lower transmission (wash your hands) we control the environment (use a fridge to store foods) and so even though the host may be vulnerable, they dont get infected.

But sanitation alone isnt enough. some organisms are transmitted by droplet infection or air. Some countries simply dont have provisions for high standards of sanitation. So we can try two things - ensure the host has immunity (and this is where vaccines come in) and try to eradicate the agent - If an agent has no host, then eradication occurs. This is precisely the tactic for polio and small-pox. But as soon as you allow one person to contract the infection, the agent continues to be propagated. Which is why so many of us in the community are frustrated with those who knowingly allow themselves to propagate avoidable communicable diseases, thus allowing the most vulnerable to be infected and develop severe morbidity.

I am pretty sure I cant change an Anti-Vaxers mind, but at least I can inform those sitting on the fence, and the least an anti-vaxer can do is make sure they isolate themselves when they are infected and not go spreading it to the vulnerable.
 
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Sabertooth

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An unproven suspicion and then disbanding vaccines is a massive and dangerous over-reaction.
Waiting for a [hypo-allergenic] alternative is not.
 
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Saricharity

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e least an anti-vaxer can do is make sure they isolate themselves when they are infected and not go spreading it to the vulnerable.

Thanks for all your replies on this thread. I wish I had the time to converse with you more thoroughly but I only have tidbits of time available to me. I'm swamped with school and a very intensive concerto I'm working on...both weighing me down considerably when it comes to time and brain power.

I quoted this specifically just because it was something that caught my attention.
Pertussis was an ongoing problem in our area last spring (the vaccine seems to not work as well or so I was told by my doctor and have read about it as well...seems to be common knowledge now.) Kids were developing mild forms of it but still attending school and thus spreading it. (My younger sister said everyone was coughing during exams last year.) Those who did develop pertussis and were symptomatic were far too sick to attend school. The ones who were spreading it were not the ones who were unvaccinated per se. (again this was from my doctor which he said was straight from the health unit). The vaccinated seem to develop fewer symptoms or are asymptomatic and feel well enough to attend functions in the community but are still actively spreading the disease. The ones who have waning immunity to the vaccine, are unvaccinated or did not develop an immune response to the vaccine tend to have symptoms that force them to remain at home meaning they are less likely to spread disease.

Anyway, all that to say, people who are sick tend to naturally isolate themselves because they are unable to function normally.

I am not anti-vaccine. I know, I know...you think because I question the safety of vaccines that I am against them. I'm not. If people want to be vaccinated, then they should have that right. They have done their research, talked with a trusted medical care provider and feel confident about their choice. Good job!

I am against mandatory vaccination.
Vaccines are not one size fits all just like prescription drugs are not.
If there are risks, there must be the choice.
If I take a prescription drug and I experience side effects, I have the option to switch to another drug. Vaccines do not have that option. In fact, there is no way for anyone to tell if their newborn might even have an allergy to anything yet we immediately vaccinate at birth. (Or I believe they do in the US...Canada waits until 2 months.)

My brother has a medical exemption to vaccines because of allergies that we did not know about until later in life. My mother was advised by her medical care provider to hold off on vaccinating for the first two years of life. She did not research anything. She just trusted her doctor. It was good advice. What might have happened if he had been vaccinated without being aware of these life-threatening allergies? I am grateful we do not need to travel that road, but how many parents have? It is too late afterward.
I feel like most young mothers will just trust their doctor's advice and don't really bother looking at blogs or scientific studies online. Most women I know realize that mommy blogs are just that...blogs written by mothers.

The interesting thing my doctor noted (different doctor as I am away at University) when I discussed vaccines with him was that he's never met an anti-vaxxer in all his years of practice. Every family that came to him trusted his word and followed the guidelines he suggested.

(He is pro-vaccine obviously. He told me about how he's seen polio, and he treated patients in Africa who had terrible vaccine-preventable diseases. I am guessing he is in his late fifties or so...I'm not entirely sure and my dad jokes with me that I think everyone older than me is old. :))

However, the one thing my doctor did mention is the number of vaccine injuries he has seen. He has noticed them occurring with more frequency than ever before. He also told me that now he does have families that do not vaccinate but EVERY single one of them believed in vaccines before an injury occurred. Now he has families who do NOT vaccinate by choice but he doesn't call them anti-vaxxers. He calls them Pro-Informed Choice.
I have learned we need to be careful how we label people.
Many stories I have read about vaccine injury are just normal, everyday people reporting what they have seen happen to their child. They have nothing to gain by sharing their experiences with others.

If someone researches vaccines, talks with their health care provider and decides against vaccines, that should always remain a choice.
 
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Dave-W

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Thanks for all your replies on this thread. I wish I had the time to converse with you more thoroughly but I only have tidbits of time available to me. I'm swamped with school and a very intensive concerto I'm working on...both weighing me down considerably when it comes to time and brain power.
Good to see you on here again. Long time ....
 
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Saricharity

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Firstly you're either horribly uninformed or your deliberately misinforming - There are literally thousands of longitudinal studies over large populations on the study of vaccines and there outcomes. If you have an argument for the type of placebo used by all means bring up a paper and we can all discuss its strengths and weakness - what study is it that you had issue with the placebo content as most Ive read are saline. But by all means give us the link and we can discuss.


Aluminium-based adjuvants should not be used as placebos in clinical trials. - PubMed - NCBI

Basically, from what I have read, there are no studies supporting the long-term or neurological safety of aluminum adjuvant.

lastly - Look Im going to back off from you a little because you probably feel you're under siege. You probably have parents that are heavily into anti-vax or anti-medicine so if that's the case then any volume of research wont change your mind.

You've been very kind.
My parents are not anti-vax or anti-medicine.
You are correct, I am not going to change my mind on vaccines being mandatory. I will always be passionately against that.
 
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Zoii

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The link you attached isn't research - its a letter to the editor. As such its an opinion piece. The writer is a credible source making no claims of pathology related to placebos with Aluminium adjuvants, but questions why it is necessary or the conventional wisdom of it, and questions the potential biochemical effects. The author points out that most trials of course use saline which is considered inert from an adverse outcome perspective.

The reason for use of Al, of course, is that the placebo is trying to mimic the vaccine being trialled. In other words a control should be testing if there are positive or negative effects from the actual vaccine and needs to rule out if the effects observed are simply due to the adjuvants.

So the link you have is merely raising the concern. It isn't evidence. Thats not to say any concern shouldnt be investigated; it should. But that's a long leap from then making a statement saying that a) placebos are aluminium based in trials - that's incorrect the overwhelming majority are saline... and b) placebo trials with Al are dangerous in some way - that's equally untrue and to suggest it is not based on any evidence.

There was a link you posted some time ago that took me to an anti-vax site. While a lot of it were non-evidence based pieces, it did have a link to two research papers on Al tested in mice. The outcomes need replicating because it did show cognitive degeneration in the mice. The problem with such studies is a) they are mice and you cant correlate mice with human studies; and b) the sample size was extremely small which weakens the study. Still the outcomes were worthy of larger scale replication.

In any case the author you cited was at pains to say that adverse events are extremely rare. Im not sure if that's a comfort to readers or not; but be aware you get elemental intakes orally and through the respiratory tract every day.

The author had a list of references though that were actual research articles, albeit they are around 10 years old. If you read them your concerns may lessen. Heres the first one listed:
Relationship between physical and chemical properties of aluminum-containing adjuvants and immunopotentiation
Hem, Stanley LAuthor Information ; HogenEsch, HarmAuthor Information . Expert Review of Vaccines; London Vol. 6, Iss. 5, (Oct 2007): 685-98.
 
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Zoii

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Thanks for all your replies on this thread. I wish I had the time to converse with you more thoroughly but I only have tidbits of time available to me. I'm swamped with school and a very intensive concerto I'm working on...both weighing me down considerably when it comes to time and brain power.

I quoted this specifically just because it was something that caught my attention.
Pertussis was an ongoing problem in our area last spring (the vaccine seems to not work as well or so I was told by my doctor and have read about it as well...seems to be common knowledge now.) Kids were developing mild forms of it but still attending school and thus spreading it. (My younger sister said everyone was coughing during exams last year.) Those who did develop pertussis and were symptomatic were far too sick to attend school. The ones who were spreading it were not the ones who were unvaccinated per se. (again this was from my doctor which he said was straight from the health unit). The vaccinated seem to develop fewer symptoms or are asymptomatic and feel well enough to attend functions in the community but are still actively spreading the disease. The ones who have waning immunity to the vaccine, are un-vaccinated or did not develop an immune response to the vaccine tend to have symptoms that force them to remain at home meaning they are less likely to spread disease.

Anyway, all that to say, people who are sick tend to naturally isolate themselves because they are unable to function normally.

I am not anti-vaccine. I know, I know...you think because I question the safety of vaccines that I am against them. I'm not. If people want to be vaccinated, then they should have that right. They have done their research, talked with a trusted medical care provider and feel confident about their choice. Good job!

I am against mandatory vaccination.
Vaccines are not one size fits all just like prescription drugs are not.
If there are risks, there must be the choice.
If I take a prescription drug and I experience side effects, I have the option to switch to another drug. Vaccines do not have that option. In fact, there is no way for anyone to tell if their newborn might even have an allergy to anything yet we immediately vaccinate at birth. (Or I believe they do in the US...Canada waits until 2 months.)

My brother has a medical exemption to vaccines because of allergies that we did not know about until later in life. My mother was advised by her medical care provider to hold off on vaccinating for the first two years of life. She did not research anything. She just trusted her doctor. It was good advice. What might have happened if he had been vaccinated without being aware of these life-threatening allergies? I am grateful we do not need to travel that road, but how many parents have? It is too late afterward.
I feel like most young mothers will just trust their doctor's advice and don't really bother looking at blogs or scientific studies online. Most women I know realize that mommy blogs are just that...blogs written by mothers.

The interesting thing my doctor noted (different doctor as I am away at University) when I discussed vaccines with him was that he's never met an anti-vaxxer in all his years of practice. Every family that came to him trusted his word and followed the guidelines he suggested.

(He is pro-vaccine obviously. He told me about how he's seen polio, and he treated patients in Africa who had terrible vaccine-preventable diseases. I am guessing he is in his late fifties or so...I'm not entirely sure and my dad jokes with me that I think everyone older than me is old. :))

However, the one thing my doctor did mention is the number of vaccine injuries he has seen. He has noticed them occurring with more frequency than ever before. He also told me that now he does have families that do not vaccinate but EVERY single one of them believed in vaccines before an injury occurred. Now he has families who do NOT vaccinate by choice but he doesn't call them anti-vaxxers. He calls them Pro-Informed Choice.
I have learned we need to be careful how we label people.
Many stories I have read about vaccine injury are just normal, everyday people reporting what they have seen happen to their child. They have nothing to gain by sharing their experiences with others.

If someone researches vaccines, talks with their health care provider and decides against vaccines, that should always remain a choice.
I do not mandate vaccines either simply because there are groups, as you mentioned, that are high risk and these are predominately the pregnant and the immunodeficient. However I do get frustrated with the general population who refuse to vaccinate as this adds to the Agent/Host reservoir. This then propagates the level of community infection and this is problematic for those who cannot vaccinate because of immunodeficiency. Regardless of your views, it IS mandated in many areas including child care centres and schools. Most responsible parents would be very upset with a child who brought measles or chicken pox into the school to infect the child undergoing chemo therapy.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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The success of the City of Leicester, England was remarkable in reducing smallpox mortality substantially compared to the rest of England and other countries by abandoning vaccination between 1882 and 1908. I love history.

Your assertion is fallacious; vaccination was not abandoned in Leicester during that time period. If you have an earnest love for history I encourage you to peruse the archives of peer-reviewed medical journals such as The British Medical Journal (today known simply as BMJ); The Lancet; and The Practitioner; and other credible sources who wrote extensively during the era such as The British Medical Association and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and to read them unedited and with the vital necessity of context. Learn directly from the unadulterated statements and publishings of professionals involved in making that history. You can also read where prominent anti-vaccinists such as J.B. Biggs were castigated for falsified and misleading statements that generated confusion and grave detriment. Much of the revised versions of history that have been spun were launched by him. JSTOR is an excellent resource for reading academic journals; you login via your college's access to it (those who are not students can use the credentials of their local public library). Please do not rely exclusively upon excerpts severed from their original source and sewn together elsewhere; if you do so, please look at the publisher and their reputation for credibility. I'm providing you with a few excerpts, but also with the links so you and anyone else eager for knowledge about this topic is equipped to read the source in its entirety.

What caused the most damage, in the 1800s, as now, was not the overt anti-vaccination propaganda that was easily identifiable, but the sly subterfuge and half-truths by those with the appearance of impartiality who therefore earned more trust from the public. The November 27, 1897 and December 25, 1897 issues of The Lancet addresses myths and inaccurate data disseminated by anti-vaccinationists about Leicester and how the myths metaphorically infected other towns. When directly confronted with the assertion that vaccination was discontinued, some then claimed that what they truly meant was that infant vaccination was no longer practiced, not that all vaccination had been. Asterisks with such imperative clarifications are often not affixed to claims when they're passed along through the generations, though. It's also essential to use historical facts as a frame of reference when studying Leicester in the late 1880s. The smallpox vaccine was developed nearly a century prior, and following The United Kingdom Vaccination Act 1853 outbreaks became increasingly less common and deadly throughout the country, thus leading to some arguing that the vaccine was no longer necessary. In 1872 the childhood vaccination rate in Leicester was 90 percent, so even if vaccination truly had been abandoned during the period you've outlined, a substantial portion of that population had already been vaccinated. Leicester was also buffered by towns that had higher vaccination rates.

The myth that vaccination was abandoned in Leicester during that period was seeded by Victorian-era opponents to compulsory vaccination and propagated by anti-vaccinists throughout the decades since.
Then, as now, this was to the vexation of physicians and public health officials who realized the significant detriment of the falsehood. This is a letter Dr. Joseph Priestley, who was appointed Medical Officer of Health for Leicester in 1892, wrote to The British Medical Journal on March 18, 1893 to correct the false claims that vaccination had been abandoned in his city, when in fact, he'd personally revaccinated staff at the Leicester Fever Hospital.
march 18, 1893.png


In a July 6, 1895 edition of The Lancet, Priestley is praised for successfully overcoming the strong anti- vaccinating opposition during a minor smallpox epidemic, without giving in "an iota" in regards to his stalwart views of the efficacy of vaccination and revaccination:
the Lancet Priestley .png


Volume 52 of The Practitioner details the smallpox outbreak in Leicester in 1892-1893, noting that the adults who lead the anti-vaccinist campaign had themselves received the protection of vaccination in their youth, and were leaving the children exposed and vulnerable (history has certainly repeated itself in that regard). They noted on page 466 that a "good deal of vaccination, and especially re-vaccination, has been carried out in Leicester without any record being kept of it; indeed it is notorious that some who were willing to remain negligent in the matter during the long period of immunity from smallpox through which England, including Leicester, has passed, have not failed during the last two years to seek protection by means of an operation which, openly at least, they professedly despised."
469.png



Killick Millard, Priestley's successor as Leicester's Medical Officer of Health, was a sturdy proponent of vaccination and revaccination, and saw to it that his own children were vaccinated, as well as medical staff. But he was also a pragmatist who wanted to ameliorate the tensions caused by polarizing anti-and pro-vaccine sentiments because he recognized the importance of sanitation in conjunction with vaccination, rather than it being an either / or. He did not endorse compulsory infant vaccination, but did believe in vaccination and revaccination being used for high-risk individuals, such as the hospital staff, and for those who contracted smallpox. Though smallpox was savage, causing the afflicted immense distress, it actually offered a window of grace measles doesn't, in that vaccination could be administered after initial symptoms had emerged to effectively treat the individual and substantially reduce the chance of an outbreak within the community. In the mid 1890s when there was calm after the earlier epidemic and before the storm of outbreaks in the early 1900s, the "Leicester Method" meant notification, hospital isolation (which was very expensive), disinfection, vaccination, and surveillance of contacts.
The vaccination question in the light of modern experience : an appeal for reconsideration / by C. Killick Millard

vaccination question - millard.png



When smallpox struck again in the early 1900s, far more aggressively, he correspondingly intensified the push for vaccination. In the Report on the Smallpox Epidemic in Leicester in 1904 he wrote that "no pains were spared to persuade as many as possible of the inmates of the invaded houses to submit to vaccination." In the The Vaccination Question linked above, Millard has a chapter titled Vaccination v. Sanitation, but then proceeds to explain how that title is actually a false dichotomy. By that point in history, with vaccination having radically reduced the severity of epidemics, he didn't believe compulsory infant vaccination was necessary, and that sanitation measures were critical. But, he also recognized the necessity of vaccination. His conclusion was that sanitation and vaccination should be combined.
millard, the vaccination of contacts.png


Millard also systematically noted the characteristics of smallpox that distinguished it from other "zymotic diseases" (this was the medical term used during that era for acute infectious diseases such as measles, scarlet fever, whooping cough, and diphtheria) and explained how for those diseases, the "Leicester Method" would be counterproductive. In other words, it's incorrect to extrapolate that because sanitary measures employed in Leicester did (again, in tandem with vaccination) assist in reducing the rate of mortality from smallpox during the late 1800s and early 1900s, that sanitation and not vaccination was responsible for the reduced mortality from other diseases such as the measles and whooping cough. Decades before the vaccines for measles and whooping cough existed, he explicitly stated that sanitation would have minimal impact upon these diseases. Someone with the measles can appear to be vibrantly healthy without any hint of the disease percolating inside of them, and go out and enjoy Disneyland, school, work, play, without realizing they are contagious and transmitting the disease to others.


The British Medical Association published Facts about Smallpox and Vaccination in 1905 and discusses Leicester numerous times.
Facts about smallpox and vaccination [print/digital]. in SearchWorks catalog

On page 16 it is noted that Glasgow had an enormous decrease in the rate of smallpox following the usage of vaccination, despite the increasing deterioration of sanitation. Conversely, other UK towns where vaccination had been neglected but sanitation standards were considered exemplary suffered tremendously when smallpox struck again. On pages 17 and 18 it discusses the smallpox outbreak in Leicester in the early 1900s and the inconsistencies of the Andrew Wakefield of the day, J.T. Biggs. "The so-called Leicester Method," as described by the well-known Leicester anti-vaccationist, Mr. J.T. Biggs, purports to prevent smallpox "without recourse to vaccination." But when smallpox comes, the medical officer, speaking of vaccination of contacts, states that he "freely resorted to it during the epidemic." It also notes how there were no exceptions among the hospital nurses in Leicester who cared for those afflicted with smallpox: all were vaccinated and escaped the disease.

18 - most important .png


Edit to add:
@keith99 and @Larnievc also provided you with reputable sources explaining that vaccination had not, in fact, been abandoned in Leicester as alleged, and I recommend reading them because they both provide comprehensive overviews.
 
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Go Braves

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I'm happy to see people seriously looking at this topic.
I always hope people will look beyond just the surface.

Well Saricharity, from reading your many posts that are lacking in any credible sources or understanding of the topic, I have to wonder if you looked beyond the surface of fraudumentaries & anti-vaxxer sites.

No, not during the time frame I quoted. During that time period, they abandoned vaccination.

Well 2 folks had already explained that you were wrong about that & they both had the courtesy to give sources. If there was any doubt that your claim was bogus, @Stanfordella sure did just obliterate it.

Yes, I have had shingles. It is a horrible affliction. The varicella vaccination does NOT prevent shingles. Anyone who has had chickenpox or the chickenpox vaccine is at risk for the painful skin condition. Both diseases are caused by the varicella-zoster virus, which stays in the body after chickenpox clears and may reactivate later in life.

You've had shingles? Jeepers. How old are you? Now you could just be a middle ager posting in the teens section for kicks or on account of not realizing what area you're in but I've seen you around there a lot so I'd thought you were around 16. So then you had chicken pox. Did your parents not get you the shot? I can't believe you've had shingles & you don't want to do everything in your power to protect other kids from having it! Gracious to me it's downright sadistic to not do what you can to protect youngins from that!

Shingles is terrible. My granny's best friend lost vision in one of her eyes on account of shingles. I've known so many folks to have shingles, but they're all old. It was awful painful for them.

No, the varicella vaccine doesn't 100% prevent shingles, but what it does is majorly reduce the chance you'll get chicken pox. 1 shot prevents 95% of moderate disease & 100% of severe disease, 2 doses are even more effective. Not having chicken pox reduces the chance you'll have shingles.

The vaccine sheds as well. A child in my church who was immunocompromised from cancer treatment caught chicken pox from his sister who was vaccinated against it. He was very sick. It was a horrible time for his entire family.

Uh huh. A hearsay account. Sounds more like that child is exactly why folks need to make sure they got their shots, to protect him.

There is speculation that vaccinating for CP has caused shingles to occur in children and younger adults. In the past, only the elderly came down with shingles. That is no longer true. Coming in contact with children with chickenpox actually is an immunity boost for adults and helps prevent shingles. Now they have created a vaccine for shingles as well.

Well it didn't seem to work out that way for you then, on account of you already having shingles.

Shot may help shield against shingles
I will pass but thought I'd leave that here.

Well, you've already had shingles. PTL I've had the chicken pox shot, so I've never had them & have known very few folks in my age range who did. There's an extremely tiny risk you can get shingles from the chicken pox shot, so sure, I'd get the shingles shot if my insurance covered it. But on account of that risk being so low they're not going to.

Isn't it interesting you thought I was in a huff? Must be because this is a forum. Just so you know, I am way past getting in a huff over what is posted in an internet forum.

Isn't it interesting you're not aware of the tone of your posts?


Except it is true. Show me evidence that it is not.

Lol, you've refused to show evidence of the claims you've made but demand evidence that they're bogus. I'm surely not going out of my way for you but here's 1 study
Another Study Just Busted The Myth That Too Many Vaccines Overload a Kid's Immune System


And you continue to perpetuate lies about him instead of finding out the real truth. Have you read his side? I highly doubt you have. You likely believe everything you have read about him on the internet. It's quite a shame actually.
A 2012 UK High Court ruled that the verdicts of professional misconduct and ethics violations by the British General Medical Council “were unsupported by the evidence.” Vera Sharav conducted an extensive review of the Wakefield charges. She summarized her report as follows:

“All of the documented evidence and testimonies submitted to the General Medical Council, upon which GMC issued its guilty verdicts against Dr. Wakefield and his two co-defendants in 2010, were subsequently forensically assessed by the UK High Court in March 2012, in the appeal of Professor John Walker-Smith, the senior clinician and senior author of the Lancet case series. The High Court determined that the verdicts of professional misconduct and ethics violations were unsupported by the evidence.”

In rendering the High Court decision, after thorough assessment of all the evidence, testimonies and verdicts by the UK General Medical Council (GMC), Justice John Mitting overturned the verdicts and excoriated the entire GMC proceedings as: “not legitimate,” “perverse,” “unsustainable” and “untenable.”

Quite the contrary, Saricharity, you're the one perpetuating lies about Andrew Wakefield instead of finding out the real truth about that charlatan. "You likely believe anything you read about him on the internet" - lol, that's total projection on your part. Dang, girl. Do you know how to vet sources? You've posted from a site made up of laypeople with maybe a couple of professionals thrown in for good measure that makes it pretty dang clear they're anti-vaxxers & not in the least bit interested in being impartial. The lady who did that crazy long report isn't a doctor, or a scientist. She's apparently a retired librarian for a law firm. I'm not reading all that & I wonder if you did. They were just really crafty with the wording to trick people. I bolded the important part in what you posted above. It was another doctor who was exonerated, not Wakefield. You know there were 12 doctors who did that retracted study, right? 12 doctors, 12 kids in the study. 10 of the 12 quickly retracted on account of the data being inaccurate. Andy deceived his colleagues at his hospital, his colleagues who did the study, dragging them down with him. He was the one with his hand in the cookie jar, not the other fellows on the study. I do feel sorry for that man Walker.

It's most definitely a shame. You're here on a Christian forum promoting a fraud who has caused incredible harm to kids for 2 decades now.


Click on the About page, Saricharity.

Here are the actual facts:

MMR doctor wins High Court appeal

Chief executive Niall Dickson added: "Today's ruling does not however reopen the debate about the MMR vaccine and autism.

"As Mr Justice Mitting observed in his judgement, 'There is now no respectable body of opinion which supports (Dr Wakefield's) hypothesis, that MMR vaccine and autism/enterocolitis are causally linked'.


If anyone is to blame for the past two centuries, it's the media. They twist the truth and are so good at fear-mongering.

Well the media you've posted sure does twist the truth, but I don't know that they're entirely at fault. Folks have got to take responsibility for vetting sources.

Nope, neither.
As I said before, I'm pro-informed choice.
If you have done your research and you feel informed and comfortable rolling up your sleeve to be injected, then, by all means, do so. Just do not force others to follow suit.

Well then inform yourself with real facts. Most reasonable folks don't have to be forced to vaccinate themselves & their kids. I'm for people having to be responsible for their choices. Idk how old you were when you had the shingles & if they were right there on your face making you contagious or on your butt or someplace else that was covered. I think folks who chose not to get vaccinated & cause others like babies too young to get shots yet to get sick from them should have to have to pay for that choice.
I'm all for kids having to get shots to go to school, things like that. I have a strong hunch you are / were homeschooled.

I am fervently against forced medical intervention.
There is no such thing as one drug that fits all....that includes vaccines.

Well seeing how you've held up the way you think things were done in England back in the 1800s, are you for forcing folks who've got any contagious infection to be put into a quarantine until it's been proven they're not contagious anymore?
 
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I never claimed to have a doctorate in immunology. Do you?
I want people to be INFORMED and maybe even ask to read a vaccine insert.
I want people to have a conversation with their doctor. Ask questions.
Most doctors have no clue what is in vaccines.

Well Saricharity, you don't need to have a doctorate in immunology to know the difference between a reliable source & a biased blog site. @Zoii has done a far better job than you have with knowing that difference & giving actual facts. Well done to her for cleaning up after you.

But, if I cause even one person to look deeper into the topic and not just blindly roll up their or their children's sleeve, then THAT will be good.

You've implied you don't read medical research for yourself on account of how it makes your brain hurt. But you want to get folks to listen to you about important health decisions for their kids even though what you're saying contradicts most of the thousands of medical studies done by doctors. The audacity of that is something else.

I will say that you have caused folks here to look deeper into topics, on account of writing about them & causing others to then write out corrections. I now know more than I ever thought I would about smallpox in a little town in England in the late 1880s, lol.


Vaccines can be harmful to at-risk groups, particularly babies, the elderly and the immunocompromised.
Two sides to every story.

Well yeah. That's exactly why folks who are healthy are asked to get themselves vaccinated, on account of the folks who can't due to being at-risk. Herd immunity.


An emerging body of evidence indicates that vaccines can damage a child’s developing brain and immune system, leading to neurodevelopmental disorders, learning disabilities, ADHD, asthma, anaphylactic food allergies, diabetes and autoimmune disorders.
Vaccination: Basic Concerns - Vaccine Choice Canada

Well yeah.

It's an anti-vaxxer blog dressing itself up as a legit & impartial source to fool folks.
Here's official info from folks up in Canada who went to medical school & aren't just posting to a blog from their couch.
Immunization | Canadian Paediatric Society
Vaccine safety: Canada's system - Caring for Kids


Nope, I'm actually very good at it. I just don't analyze it for anyone else.

Nope, you're obviously not, but it's obvious you think you are.

Well, it's a good thing I am not misinforming.

It's been proven that that's exactly what you've been doing.

I am providing another perspective and hopefully, others quietly reading along will be spurred to do their own research and not blindly believe the mainstream.

Most folks don't "blindly" believe the mainstream but it makes a heck of a lot more sense to give more credence to medical advice from legitimate medical sources than from anonymous bloggers on blog sites.

Asking questions is good.

Well, so long as you're asking them to people who are qualified to answer them, sure. I wouldn't go & ask Hannibal Lecter for cooking recipes. :D
 
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Your assertion is fallacious; vaccination was not abandoned in Leicester during that time period. If you have an earnest love for history I encourage you to peruse the archives of peer-reviewed medical journals such as The British Medical Journal (today known simply as BMJ); The Lancet; and The Practitioner; and other credible sources who wrote extensively during the era such as The British Medical Association and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and to read them unedited and with the vital necessity of context. Learn directly from the unadulterated statements and publishings of professionals involved in making that history. You can also read where prominent anti-vaccinists such as J.B. Biggs were castigated for falsified and misleading statements that generated confusion and grave detriment. Much of the revised versions of history that have been spun were launched by him. JSTOR is an excellent resource for reading academic journals; you login via your college's access to it (those who are not students can use the credentials of their local public library). Please do not rely exclusively upon excerpts severed from their original source and sewn together elsewhere; if you do so, please look at the publisher and their reputation for credibility. I'm providing you with a few excerpts, but also with the links so you and anyone else eager for knowledge about this topic is equipped to read the source in its entirety.

What caused the most damage, in the 1800s, as now, was not the overt anti-vaccination propaganda that was easily identifiable, but the sly subterfuge and half-truths by those with the appearance of impartiality who therefore earned more trust from the public. The November 27, 1897 and December 25, 1897 issues of The Lancet addresses myths and inaccurate data disseminated by anti-vaccinationists about Leicester and how the myths metaphorically infected other towns. When directly confronted with the assertion that vaccination was discontinued, some then claimed that what they truly meant was that infant vaccination was no longer practiced, not that all vaccination had been. Asterisks with such imperative clarifications are often not affixed to claims when they're passed along through the generations, though. It's also essential to use historical facts as a frame of reference when studying Leicester in the late 1880s. The smallpox vaccine was developed nearly a century prior, and following The United Kingdom Vaccination Act 1853 outbreaks became increasingly less common and deadly throughout the country, thus leading to some arguing that the vaccine was no longer necessary. In 1872 the childhood vaccination rate in Leicester was 90 percent, so even if vaccination truly had been abandoned during the period you've outlined, a substantial portion of that population had already been vaccinated. Leicester was also buffered by towns that had higher vaccination rates.

The myth that vaccination was abandoned in Leicester during that period was seeded by Victorian-era opponents to compulsory vaccination and propagated by anti-vaccinists throughout the decades since.
Then, as now, this was to the vexation of physicians and public health officials who realized the significant detriment of the falsehood. This is a letter Dr. Joseph Priestley, who was appointed Medical Officer of Health for Leicester in 1892, wrote to The British Medical Journal on March 18, 1893 to correct the false claims that vaccination had been abandoned in his city, when in fact, he'd personally revaccinated staff at the Leicester Fever Hospital.
View attachment 223630

In a July 6, 1895 edition of The Lancet, Priestley is praised for successfully overcoming the strong anti- vaccinating opposition during a minor smallpox epidemic, without giving in "an iota" in regards to his stalwart views of the efficacy of vaccination and revaccination:
View attachment 223631

Volume 52 of The Practitioner details the smallpox outbreak in Leicester in 1892-1893, noting that the adults who lead the anti-vaccinist campaign had themselves received the protection of vaccination in their youth, and were leaving the children exposed and vulnerable (history has certainly repeated itself in that regard). They noted on page 466 that a "good deal of vaccination, and especially re-vaccination, has been carried out in Leicester without any record being kept of it; indeed it is notorious that some who were willing to remain negligent in the matter during the long period of immunity from smallpox through which England, including Leicester, has passed, have not failed during the last two years to seek protection by means of an operation which, openly at least, they professedly despised."
View attachment 223638


Killick Millard, Priestley's successor as Leicester's Medical Officer of Health, was a sturdy proponent of vaccination and revaccination, and saw to it that his own children were vaccinated, as well as medical staff. But he was also a pragmatist who wanted to ameliorate the tensions caused by polarizing anti-and pro-vaccine sentiments because he recognized the importance of sanitation in conjunction with vaccination, rather than it being an either / or. He did not endorse compulsory infant vaccination, but did believe in vaccination and revaccination being used for high-risk individuals, such as the hospital staff, and for those who contracted smallpox. Though smallpox was savage, causing the afflicted immense distress, it actually offered a window of grace measles doesn't, in that vaccination could be administered after initial symptoms had emerged to effectively treat the individual and substantially reduce the chance of an outbreak within the community. In the mid 1890s when there was calm after the earlier epidemic and before the storm of outbreaks in the early 1900s, the "Leicester Method" meant notification, hospital isolation (which was very expensive), disinfection, vaccination, and surveillance of contacts.
The vaccination question in the light of modern experience : an appeal for reconsideration / by C. Killick Millard

View attachment 223640


When smallpox struck again in the early 1900s, far more aggressively, he correspondingly intensified the push for vaccination. In the Report on the Smallpox Epidemic in Leicester in 1904 he wrote that "no pains were spared to persuade as many as possible of the inmates of the invaded houses to submit to vaccination." In the The Vaccination Question linked above, Millard has a chapter titled Vaccination v. Sanitation, but then proceeds to explain how that title is actually a false dichotomy. By that point in history, with vaccination having radically reduced the severity of epidemics, he didn't believe compulsory infant vaccination was necessary, and that sanitation measures were critical. But, he also recognized the necessity of vaccination. His conclusion was that sanitation and vaccination should be combined.
View attachment 223649

Millard also systematically noted the characteristics of smallpox that distinguished it from other "zymotic diseases" (this was the medical term used during that era for acute infectious diseases such as measles, scarlet fever, whooping cough, and diphtheria) and explained how for those diseases, the "Leicester Method" would be counterproductive. In other words, it's incorrect to extrapolate that because sanitary measures employed in Leicester did (again, in tandem with vaccination) assist in reducing the rate of mortality from smallpox during the late 1800s and early 1900s, that sanitation and not vaccination was responsible for the reduced mortality from other diseases such as the measles and whooping cough. Decades before the vaccines for measles and whooping cough existed, he explicitly stated that sanitation would have minimal impact upon these diseases. Someone with the measles can appear to be vibrantly healthy without any hint of the disease percolating inside of them, and go out and enjoy Disneyland, school, work, play, without realizing they are contagious and transmitting the disease to others.


The British Medical Association published Facts about Smallpox and Vaccination in 1905 and discusses Leicester numerous times.
Facts about smallpox and vaccination [print/digital]. in SearchWorks catalog

On page 16 it is noted that Glasgow had an enormous decrease in the rate of smallpox following the usage of vaccination, despite the increasing deterioration of sanitation. Conversely, other UK towns where vaccination had been neglected but sanitation standards were considered exemplary suffered tremendously when smallpox struck again. On pages 17 and 18 it discusses the smallpox outbreak in Leicester in the early 1900s and the inconsistencies of the Andrew Wakefield of the day, J.T. Biggs. "The so-called Leicester Method," as described by the well-known Leicester anti-vaccationist, Mr. J.T. Biggs, purports to prevent smallpox "without recourse to vaccination." But when smallpox comes, the medical officer, speaking of vaccination of contacts, states that he "freely resorted to it during the epidemic." It also notes how there were no exceptions among the hospital nurses in Leicester who cared for those afflicted with smallpox: all were vaccinated and escaped the disease.

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Edit to add:
@keith99 and @Larnievc also provided you with reputable sources explaining that vaccination had not, in fact, been abandoned in Leicester as alleged, and I recommend reading them because they both provide comprehensive overviews.
Wow what an impressive piece of medico-historical literature research. Thanks and well done. That was a very interesting read.
 
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keith99

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In first world countries, chickenpox is a minor ailment.
I used to have a few dimples in my stomach because of
scratching the blisters, but even those are long gone.

You left out one word and it is important!

USUALLY

And even with that there is the phrase 'if contracted as a child' contracted as an adult or a newborn it is rather common for the results to be serious.

Before the vaccine was available 11,000 people were hospitalized each year and 100 died.

Chickenpox Vaccine Drastically Cuts Hospitalizations

Yes that is still much better than 3rd world countries where any case could be fatal. But it is far from trivial.
 
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Saricharity

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Your assertion is fallacious

I stand corrected. Vaccination was not completely abandoned. Infant vaccination amounted to 11 or 12 percent of births during that time.
The government in Leicester at the time was replaced by a new government that opposed compulsory vaccination. By 1887, vaccination coverage rates dropped dramatically and the Leicester Method of quarantine and disinfection was adopted.

People thought that Leicester would result in a massacre of their children.
That did not happen.

https://ia800301.us.archive.org/21/items/leicestersanitat00biggrich/leicestersanitat00biggrich.pdf

"Another year passed without any case of small-pox having occurred in Leicester. It is now four years since the small-pox hospital was last used, or five years if the single case in 1906 be excluded. As I have pointed out before, the experience of Leicester proves that the danger of unvaccinated persons contracting small-pox, even in the presence of an epidemic--provided modern methods of dealing with disease are efficiently carried out--has been somewhat overrated; whilst the danger of vaccinated persons spreading disease--through the occurrence of highly modified cases which are so apt to be missed--has not hitherto been sufficiently emphasized. It is very doubtful, therefore, whether it is any longer legitimate to justify vaccination being made compulsory on the ground--at one time so much insisted upon--that unvaccinated persons are a danger to the community."

"...Leicester with a population under 10 years of age practically unvaccinated had a smallpox deathrate of 144 million whereas with all the births vaccinated for the 18 years previous to the epidemic had one of 3,614 million."

Willian Scott Tebb, MD A Century of Vaccination and What it Teaches, Swan Sonnenschein & Co, London, 1898, pp. 93, 94.

The death rate from smallpox per hundred thousand in Leicester during the 1892-1894 outbreak was 5.7, Birmingham it was 8.0, Warrington 10.0, Middlesbrough was 14.4.
Over the years, Leicester death rate from smallpox declined even more and by 1903-1904, it was down to 1.2. "Each successive epidemic since the vaccination has been decreased, with a larger proportion of unvaccinated population, furnishes a still lower death rate."

"the fact that these prophesies, which were first made nearly 20 years ago, have, as yet, been unfulfilled, is one of the strongest reasons for re-examining the question of the influences of the vaccinal condition of a community in determining small-pox incidence."

"yet although, during the 10 months the epidemic lasted, 136 children (under 15) were attacked, inflicted largely by once-vaccinated adults. It cannot be said that the disease ever showed any tendency to catch on amongst the entirely unvaccinated child population..."

"...infantile vaccination played a much smaller part in limiting the spread of smallpox than was generally predicted and that unvaccinated people were not a danger to the community. Therefore compulsory vaccination was not justified..."

Leicester: Sanitation versus Vaccination, 1912 J.T Biggs

An article in the 1914 New York Times stated that 75% of the population was unvaccinated and predicted a dreadful reckoning to England.

However, most infants remained unvaccinated despite such scary predictions.

1948 brought an end to compulsory vaccination in England
By that time the experiment in Leicester had been going on for more than 60 years and proved to be a success.

"in Leicester, during the 62 years since infant vaccination was abandoned there have only been 53 deaths from smallpox...vaccination has been steadily declining ever since the conscience clause was introduced, until now nearly 2/3 of the children born are not vaccinated. Yet the smallpox mortality also has declined until now quite negligible."

C. Killick Millard, MD DSc, "The end of compulsory vaccination", British Medical Journal, Dec 18, 1948 p. 1074
 
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I will say that you have caused folks here to look deeper into topics, on account of writing about them & causing others to then write out corrections. I now know more than I ever thought I would about smallpox in a little town in England in the late 1880s, lol.

Keep studying it. There is a lot to be learned from that little town. May I suggest studying the history of Jenner as well. It is fascinating.

Herd immunity.

Oh boy, now isn't that opening a whole other can of worms? How much have you researched Herd Immunity and what it really is?

It's an anti-vaxxer blog dressing itself up as a legit & impartial source to fool folks.

It's interesting how you use the term Anti-vaxxer like it is a bad term. You couldn't be more wrong about that website.

You've implied you don't read medical research for yourself on account of how it makes your brain hurt. But you want to get folks to listen to you about important health decisions for their kids even though what you're saying contradicts most of the thousands of medical studies done by doctors. The audacity of that is something else.

I don't want folks to listen to ANY of us.
I want people to do their own research. It's too easy to just follow the mainstream and merrily do what everyone else does just because its deemed as the right thing to do and everyone else says its correct.
I remember reading a quote...let me think...life's true sojourn reveals a long winding narrow path that only you can choose. Few have the courage to walk it.

However, I do want people to see and understand how very wrong mandating vaccines are. Hopefully, I have done that.
 
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Saricharity

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Most reasonable folks don't have to be forced to vaccinate themselves & their kids. I'm for people having to be responsible for their choices. Idk how old you were when you had the shingles & if they were right there on your face making you contagious or on your butt or someplace else that was covered. I think folks who chose not to get vaccinated & cause others like babies too young to get shots yet to get sick from them should have to have to pay for that choice.
I'm all for kids having to get shots to go to school, things like that. I have a strong hunch you are / were homeschooled.

There are plenty of reasonable people who feel forced into vaccinating their children. Have you been following how upset parents are in California? I do not see this going away anytime soon as long as mandates are being forced on people.

I was 16 when I had shingles, and it makes no difference where I had them. Shingles are not contagious unless someone comes in direct contact with the fluid from the rash blisters. Believe me, you definitely know you have shingles when you get them. Once the rash occurs, you are certainly able to take precautions that no one comes in contact with it.
Tell me how you can prove that an unvaccinated person infected someone else? Could it be that a newly vaccinated person spread the infection from shedding? Could it be that a vaccinated person spread it because they did not have an immune response to the vaccine yet they are considered vaccinated? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.

I am not a fan of mandates for school children. I am glad that vaccines are not mandatory in Canada. There are a few provinces that require it but they also provide exemptions for children as well. Many experts have said that mandating vaccines is not the way to go and I agree. It is better to educate. This is why in Ontario they have a new policy that all parents who wish an exemption must take a vaccine education course before they receive their exemption. This opens conversation which is sorely needed. Education and conversation instead of blindly vaccinating.

I wonder where you got the idea that I was homeschooled?
Currently, I attend a very prestigious university in Canada with a full scholarship.
 
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I do have my history right. :)

You do not have the history regarding the city of Leicester, England's management of smallpox during the late 1800s and early 1900s correct, but you are certainly not the first to give that revisionary account of it. In the early 1900s a member of the Homeopathic Medical Society of Buffalo - which was staunchly opposed to vaccination - wrote an article that was published in a short-lived Cleveland periodical and essentially "went viral" (sorry, not sorry, I cannot resist any opportunity to use a pun!:)) jubilantly declaring that Leicester had rejected vaccination and been victorious in defeating smallpox exclusively through increased sanitation measures. He extolled the Leicester Method, and gave a false description of it that omitted any use of vaccination. Much of his misinformation was derived from anti-vaccination leagues both in the UK and US, but he also proffered claims from British advertisements as substantiation, and plucked figures from their contexts, misrepresenting them. Even prior to then, inaccurate descriptions of the "method" were propagated by anti-vaccinationist propaganda, but this article had more impact on the general public. Other anti-vaccinists enthusiastically repeated the misinformation, and it got passed along through the years, eventually making its way to you.

Opposition to vaccination grew in the United States following the Civil War when troops fearing a smallpox epidemic and feeling desperate self-incolutated using highly unsanitary techniques that spread syphilis - not just to themselves but to women and their offspring. The soldiers erroneously believed that the larger and deeper the wound, the stronger the protection they'd receive would be, so they used pocketknives, pins, and whatever else they had on hand to puncture the arm, often causing gangrene which lead to severe sickness and even amputations and death. Off the battlefield unhygienic vaccination methods also spread infections and illnesses, which people erroneously (but reasonably considering that time) blamed on the vaccines. This was in the era before modern antiseptics. (Anti-vaccination sentiment roared in England after children died from a staph infection that was caused not by the vaccine, but from not properly sanitizing the needle used to administer it.)

Cleveland Ravaged by Smallpox Epidemic in 1902

Vaccines were readily available in Cleveland but not used due to fears held by the public about them. Local public health officials instead relied upon the Leicester Method, but unfortunately on the falsified accountings of it rather than the one that had actually been employed. Local public health officials were hopeful sanitation would prevail and depended on isolating the victims in quarantine, and disinfecting their homes and belongings rather than utilizing the vaccine. Initially it worked. Until it didn't. Smallpox roared back and spread through the city like a wildfire. By 1901, Cleveland's smallpox policy of quarantine and disinfection was breaking down. The number of cases soared to 1,232. An attempt at vaccination was made but quickly aborted; again errors in the administration of the vaccine lead to deaths which intensified public resistance. Cleveland's new chief health officer, Martin Friedrich, chose to then increase sanitation standards with the hope it would have the same (mythical) success as in Leicester. (This was also before the 1903 and 1904 smallpox outbreaks in Leicester.)

Friedrich turned to an aggressive disinfection campaign, mobilizing students from the city's three medical schools to go to all the victims' houses and neighborhoods, spraying down everything with formaldehyde.

A smallpox hospital was hastily erected on the grounds of City Hospital (now the MetroHealth Medical Center).

For a time, the strategy seemed to work.

But in May of 1902, Cleveland's smallpox nightmare returned, reportedly brought by a homeless person from Hoboken, New Jersey, who was infected with a lethal hemorrhagic variant of smallpox.
Thirty people soon died and the number of cases soared.

The city felt besieged by smallpox. It caused ordinary life to come to a halt, massively impacting productivity in the workplace with numerous people or family members quarantined; schools, public transportation, and commerce swiftly felt the ramifications. People became fearful of public places and many abstained from shopping unless completely necessary. They even avoided houses of worship where members of congregations had been afflicted. Due to a nearly two-week incubation period, it was hard to tell who had contracted the disease, and who hadn't, so there was perpetual worry. Conditions worsened rapidly, and the city erected barbed wire around the smallpox hospital to keep patients from leaving.

Faced with the specter of catastrophe, Cleveland officials returned to hopes of mass vaccinations.
This effort was aided by the fact that a new bacteriological laboratory had been created at the smallpox hospital to test vaccines from several suppliers, until one was found to be both effective and safe.
Convincing the public was another challenge.

A renewed vaccination campaign, led by physicians from the Academy of Medicine of Cleveland, managed to get more than half the city's residents (about 100,000 people) vaccinated by the fall of 1902.
The campaign additionally benefited from the support of the press, local businesses and the compulsory vaccination of all school children, as ordered by the Cleveland Board of Education.

Increased sanitation measures were beneficial, but it was unequivocal that vaccinations were what stomped the smallpox outbreak.

The epidemic ebbs
1902 ended with a record number of smallpox cases in Cleveland, 1,248, and 224 deaths.
But the vaccination campaign was gaining the upper hand over the disease.
In 1903, there were only 106 smallpox cases in Cleveland and 22 deaths. In 1904, 40 cases and six deaths. In 1905, zero cases and fatalities.

I do agree with you that "those who don't know their own history are doomed to repeat it." Those who act upon a revisionary accounting of it are often the most doomed.

20 years ago, research fraud catalyzed the anti-vaccination movement. Let’s not repeat history.
How Andrew Wakefield’s shoddy science fueled autism-vaccine fears


Measles Cases in Europe Quadrupled in 2017
 
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