WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[Saint Steven]

We agree that believers are not sinless enough and isn't producing enough works. But this is the whole point of justification: being considered righteous, being made righteous, being declared righteous. God looks at the heart. Is the heart pure? Or is the mind carnal?

Jesus is our righteousness.
We were all MADE righteous (in God's eyes) by his act of obedience.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

So what your saying is, if your interpretation is incorrect then God is a tyrant, instead of saying He must have a good reason for this decision.

Someone who does horrible things to others is a tyrant. Whether they claim to have good reasons or not. "Believe or burn" is spiritual extortion. How can such a claim be justified?

 

[ozso]

So what your saying is, if your interpretation is incorrect then God is a tyrant, instead of saying He must have a good reason for this decision.

Not my interpretation. I was explaining how things are viewd by others. Now I'm sure there are theological portrayals of God's character, motives and plans that you don't agree with. Do you agree that God preselected only a few people to be saved and the rest to be condemned in advance? Do you agree that God planned in advance to only save sabbitarians? I'm sure for most of us there's at least one theology that's considered incorrect. Many view predestination as incorrect because they believe it portays God as robbing us of our free will and being cruel and unfair, which He isn't, ergo that doctrine must be wrong.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not my interpretation. I was explaining how things are viewd by others. Now I'm sure there are theological portrayals of God's character, motives and plans that you don't agree with. Do you agree that God preselected only a few people to be saved and the rest to be condemned in advance? Do you agree that God planned in advance to only save sabbitarians? I'm sure for most of us there's at least one theology that's considered incorrect. Many view predestination as incorrect because they believe it portays God as robbing us of our free will and being cruel and unfair, which He isn't, ergo that doctrine must be wrong.

I don’t disagree with any decision He made because I believe in His kindness and patience towards the wicked so I trust that those who He did condemn were condemned for a good reason. God doesn’t owe me an explanation because I trust Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Someone who does horrible things to others is a tyrant. Whether they claim to have good reasons or not. "Believe or burn" is spiritual extortion. How can such an claim be justified?

That’s a dangerous position to have brother when we don’t know the whole story.

 

[Andrewn]

That seems like performance taking precedence over belief.

There seems to be a block in communication . How can what I described be called "performance?" I talked about having a clean heart and a spiritual mind. About loving God and our neighbor. If this is not "performance" and it certainly doesn't take precedence over faith. Let's go back to the basics, Jesus' sermon on the mountain. Here are the qualifications that are necessary for the Kingdom of God:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the humble,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
11 “You are blessed when they insult you and persecute you and falsely say every kind of evil against you because of me.12 Be glad and rejoice, because your reward is great in heaven.

And, yes, there are necessary qualifications for the Kingdom of God.

 

[ozso]

There seems to be a block in communication . How can what I described be called "performance?" I talked about having a clean heart and a spiritual mind. About loving God and our neighbor. If this is not "performance" and it certainly doesn't take precedence over faith. Let's go back to the basics, Jesus' sermon on the mountain. Here are the qualifications that are necessary for the Kingdom of God:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the humble,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
11 “You are blessed when they insult you and persecute you and falsely say every kind of evil against you because of me.12 Be glad and rejoice, because your reward is great in heaven.

And, yes, there are necessary qualifications for the Kingdom of God.

The focus of what I'm getting at is it being said no one will be given a second chance after they die to believe. Which I don't necessarily disagree with. But I think it's a good idea to put beliefs to the test. Including the belief regarding belief.

So when it comes to the statement of people won't be given a second chance to believe after they're dead, even if they were, apparently that wouldn't be sufficient. So why use the term "a second chance to believe" in the first place?

 

[Saint Steven]

That’s a dangerous position to have brother when we don’t know the whole story.

You would only say that if you believed that God is a tyrant, right? Otherwise, what's dangerous about it? Does God have anger management issues? (a tyrant)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Someone who does horrible things to others is a tyrant. Whether they claim to have good reasons or not. "Believe or burn" is spiritual extortion. How can such an claim be justified?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You would only say that if you believed that God is a tyrant, right? Otherwise, what's dangerous about it? Does God have anger management issues? (a tyrant)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Someone who does horrible things to others is a tyrant. Whether they claim to have good reasons or not. "Believe or burn" is spiritual extortion. How can such an claim be justified?

No what’s dangerous about it is if your wrong then your saying that God is a tyrant because of His decision to condemn those people instead of giving Him the benefit of a doubt that He most likely has a perfectly good reason for making that decision. We don’t know the whole story about those who were condemned. I’m confident that anyone whom God condemns is deserving of it because of His patience and loving nature.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That seems like performance taking precedence over belief.

No it’s faith motivating someone to act. It’s not the action itself that is relevant but the motivation behind the action. You can kill a person by accident and not be condemned but killing a person intentionally out of hate or anger can condemn a person. It’s the same offense but the motivation behind the action is the determining factor.

 

[ozso]

No it’s faith motivating someone to act. It’s not the action itself that is relevant but the motivation behind the action. You can kill a person by accident and not be condemned but killing a person intentionally out of hate or anger can condemn a person. It’s the same offense but the motivation behind the action is the determining factor.

I understand what you're saying perfectly. I'm familiar with the soteriology, and I don't necessarily disagree with it. However, I've always a hard time completely separating it from performance. Your statement of "the motivation behind the action" is talking about performance, as "performance" is defined as "the action or process of carrying out or accomplishing an action, task, or function".

 

[Andrewn]

I'm familiar with the soteriology, and I don't necessarily disagree with it. However, I've always a hard time completely separating it from performance.

Performance matters. If you couldn't agree with messages #357 & #366, this may be straightforward enough.

Mat 21:28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’29 His son replied, ‘I don’t want to,’ but later he changed his mind and went.30 Then the father went to the other son and told him the same thing. He replied, ‘I will, sir,’ but he didn’t go.31 Which of the two did the father’s will?”

They answered, “The first one.”

Jesus told them,“I tell all of you with certainty, tax collectors and prostitutes will get into God’s kingdom ahead of you!

 

[Mark Corbett]

WHY IS UNIVERSALISM NOT BIBLICAL?
God bless

Good question! For universalism to be true, the unrighteous who are cast into hell would have to be able to repent and come to faith in hell. However, this is not possible because they will be turned to ashes and ashes cannot repent:

 

[Saint Steven]

No what’s dangerous about it is if your wrong then your saying that God is a tyrant because of His decision to condemn those people instead of giving Him the benefit of a doubt that He most likely has a perfectly good reason for making that decision. We don’t know the whole story about those who were condemned. I’m confident that anyone whom God condemns is deserving of it because of His patience and loving nature.

Seriously?
No one deserves to be incinerated for all eternity with no hope of escape. Anyone who would do such a thing to a human being is a tyrant. Can't you see that? Even Adolf Hitler doesn't deserve that.

I agree with you that God has a "patience and loving nature." That's why he would never do such a thing. He's NOT a tyrant.

 

[Saint Steven]

No what’s dangerous about it is if your wrong then your saying that God is a tyrant...

First of all, I'm not calling God a tyrant. That is what the majority of Christianity is doing by preaching "believe or burn".

You didn't really explain what was dangerous about my position.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Christian univsalists I've heard from, especially the ones who are theologians, have been more thorough and dogmatic than you're making them out to be. It's not as superficial as a couple of out of context verses. They claim there is actually more biblical support for it than there is for the eternal torment of most of mankind. And I have seen a lot of biblical support that appears to weigh in their favor. Whereas the biblical support for the opposite doesn't appear to stand up as well. I've seen text used that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with eternal torment. Some of it appears to more likely be national judgment very similar to national judgements given by the prophets before Israel's downfall at the hands of Babylon. Whereas Jesus was saying the same types of things, using the same kind of language, right before Israel's downfall at the hands of Rome.

I do not believe in eternal torment but there is no scripture support for Universalism whatsoever. If you believe there is post the scriptures and let's look at the context and subject matter as it relates to the rest of the bible. The teachings of Universalism pretty much disagree with the whole bible, and is only repeating the first lie told to Eve in the Garden of Eden that you can disobey God's Word and not surely die. *Genesis 3:1-5

Take Care.

 

[ozso]

Those verses are referring to false professors who are trying to escape their deserved punishment. They can fool some but not God.

That's one common interpretation. Another is they were just pretending to put on an act. Another is they were trying earn their way into the Kindom through works without faith. Although I suppose all of the above could apply.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Seriously?
No one deserves to be incinerated for all eternity with no hope of escape. Anyone who would do such a thing to a human being is a tyrant. Can't you see that? Even Adolf Hitler doesn't deserve that.

I agree with you that God has a "patience and loving nature." That's why he would never do such a thing. He's NOT a tyrant.

Actually, if anyone deserves eternal destruction it is those wicked servants who judge others will inherit that fate. Every time a self-professing lover of Christ takes the HS and drags him through the dirt by uttering filthy blasphemies condemning all except himself and his stupid little hypocritical cult pals, he puts himself at risk of receiving that selfsame comeuppance. As if he can escape that fate by condemning others to it, just tragic toxic psychosis.

So we all need to beware how we judge, lest that judgment be inflicted back on us. UR is good, because it only wishes life and salvation upon others.

 

[ozso]

Performance matters. If you couldn't agree with messages #357 & #366, this may be straightforward enough.

Mat 21:28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’29 His son replied, ‘I don’t want to,’ but later he changed his mind and went.30 Then the father went to the other son and told him the same thing. He replied, ‘I will, sir,’ but he didn’t go.31 Which of the two did the father’s will?”

They answered, “The first one.”

Jesus told them,“I tell all of you with certainty, tax collectors and prostitutes will get into God’s kingdom ahead of you!

I definitely agree that performance matters. The way I look at it from a personal perspective, is simply that I have a job to do. But really more like when I take on a volunteer job. Like when I volunteered to help paint the church. I wouldn't have gotten fired if I decided not to do any work, but it wouldn't have made any sense for me to show up and not do anything.

But performance regarding salvation is a trickier matter. And in that parable Jesus didn't indicate that those who didn't do the father's will wouldn't enter God's kingdom, but rather would enter behind those who did.

 

[ozso]

Actually, if anyone deserves eternal destruction it is those wicked servants who judge others will inherit that fate. Every time a self-professing lover of Christ takes the HS and drags him through the dirt by uttering filthy blasphemies condemning all except himself and his stupid little hypocritical cult pals, he puts himself at risk of receiving that selfsame comeuppance. As if he can escape that fate by condemning others to it, just tragic toxic psychosis.

So we all need to beware how we judge, lest that judgment be inflicted back on us. UR is good, because it only wishes life and salvation upon others.

We need to take on Paul's personal perspective of being the chief among sinners. And that of the tax collector and cry out `God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'