WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[Saint Steven]

I think it's a sin when we act like we *know* God's plans...

I thought he had informed us.

Jeremiah 29:11 NIV
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

 

[BNR32FAN]

First of all, I'm not calling God a tyrant. That is what the majority of Christianity is doing by preaching "believe or burn".

You didn't really explain what was dangerous about my position.

Your interpreting the scriptures thru this emotional lens of what you consider to be right & wrong and it is causing you to resort to altering the word of God in order to satisfy your emotions instead of just allowing the scriptures to say what they say and accepting it on faith that God is just in His actions in whatever course of action He decides to take. What you need to consider is, what if your wrong and God will punish souls for all eternity? If you are wrong then you are in fact calling Him a tyrant because your saying that if He was to do such a thing then He would be a tyrant. So if that’s what He has decided to do then you are in fact calling Him a tyrant. I haven’t called Him a tyrant at all because as I’ve stated several times I trust that He has good reason for His decision.

 

[ozso]

So let me understand you correctly. Are you saying now that the wicked do not receive eternal life now after God's judgement and they are punished and tortured in the lake of fire until God forces them all into repentance?

That's a strawman some have come up with to argue against UR. From the UR perspective the lake of fire is where sin is cured. Like detox rehab.

 

[Saint Steven]

Your interpreting the scriptures thru this emotional lens of what you consider to be right & wrong and it is causing you to resort to altering the word of God in order to satisfy your emotions instead of just allowing the scriptures to say what they say and accepting it on faith that God is just in His actions in whatever course of action He decides to take. What you need to consider is, what if your wrong and God will punish souls for all eternity? If you are wrong then you are in fact calling Him a tyrant because your saying that if He was to do such a thing then He would be a tyrant. So if that’s what He has decided to do then you are in fact calling Him a tyrant. I haven’t called Him a tyrant at all because as I’ve stated several times I trust that He has good reason for His decision.

We have a common understanding about what it means to be a tyrant. If what you claim is true then God would fit the definition. The definition doesn't apply only to humans. It is your description of God that makes him a tyrant. As I said, I don't believe he is a tyrant.

Reminded me of this for some reason.

Galatians 4:16 NIV
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

 

[Saint Steven]

Your interpreting the scriptures thru this emotional lens of what you consider to be right & wrong...

Has God called us to be emotionless?
Have you seen this?

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually, if anyone deserves eternal destruction it is those wicked servants who judge others will inherit that fate. Every time a self-professing lover of Christ takes the HS and drags him through the dirt by uttering filthy blasphemies condemning all except himself and his stupid little hypocritical cult pals, he puts himself at risk of receiving that selfsame comeuppance. As if he can escape that fate by condemning others to it, just tragic toxic psychosis.

So we all need to beware how we judge, lest that judgment be inflicted back on us. UR is good, because it only wishes life and salvation upon others.

I don’t see anyone here doing that. I hope you weren’t referring to me because I certainly made no such claims.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do not believe in eternal torment but there is no scripture support for Universalism whatsoever. If you believe there is post the scriptures and let's look at the context and subject matter as it relates to the rest of the bible. The teachings of Universalism pretty much disagree with the whole bible, and is only repeating the first lie told to Eve in the Garden of Eden that you can disobey God's Word and not surely die. *Genesis 3:1-5

Take Care.

Im undecided on eternal torment. I tend to lean more towards annihilationism but I don’t rule out the possibility of eternal torment.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Has God called us to be emotionless?
Have you seen this?

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Ok this is what I would do or what I think God should do so this is probably what these verses are saying. Not a good approach to interpreting the scriptures.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Has God called us to be emotionless?
Have you seen this?

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Aionios is also used in just about every mention of eternal life as well.

 

[ozso]

Im undecided on eternal torment. I tend to lean more towards annihilationism but I don’t rule out the possibility of eternal torment.

I prefer the idea of UR of course, but I tend to lean towards annihilationism myself. Eternal torment has never made sense to me since I was a kid.

 

[ozso]

Aionios is also used in just about every mention of eternal life as well.

I've thought about that, and have considered it could be referring to life in the age to come. The Bible describes things in the age to come, like the thousand year period. But doesn't really describe what comes after that in detail. Maybe after the thousand year rein of Christ and Satan being let loose again, will be another deciding factor in the fate of humanity in general, and the aftermath being the beginning of yet another age.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I've thought about that, and have considered it could be referring to life in the age to come. The Bible describes things in the age to come, like the thousand year period. But doesn't really describe what comes after that in detail. Maybe after the thousand year rein of Christ and Satan being let loose again, will be another deciding factor in the fate of humanity in general, and the aftermath being the beginning of yet another age.

Im sorry I should’ve agreed with that post I was quoting because aionios does not always mean eternal or everlasting. The point I was trying to make is that it can mean everlasting or eternal but it can also refer to a limited amount of time like you said until the end of a particular age, like for example until the end of this world etc. Now aeon always refers to something eternal or everlasting So I apologize for not fully clarifying I’m at work and often have to make quick replies so sometimes they’re not very comprehensive.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ So let me understand you correctly. Are you saying now that the wicked do not receive eternal life now after God's judgement and they are punished and tortured in the lake of fire until God forces them all into repentance?

Your response here...

That's a strawman some have come up with to argue against UR. From the UR perspective the lake of fire is where sin is cured. Like detox rehab.

What do you mean that is a strawman? It is not a strawman at all. Universalism teaches that God throws all the wicked in the lake of fire torturing them into repentance forcing all the wicked to repent and follow him before he gives them eternal life. I mean what kind of God is that? Not one of the bible or supported in the scriptures.

Take Care.

 

[rjs330]

You wrote a book about it? I'm not a universalist, or Calvinist, or Baptist, or even a Pentecostal even though I've been attending a Pentecostal church for years. I'm just a Christian. And an orthodox one. There's probably a lot we agree on. Christian UR is a pet side interest of mine. To a degree. I haven't gone as far as reading any books about it, although I've watched some videos. My main theologian sources are Steve Gregg, Brad Jersak and David Bentley Hart. I'd say it's certainly not an exact science so to speak. There's no official Christian doctrine that I know of. I consider it unique in that it's a Christian doctrine or view that doesn't have anything to do with Christians.

No I was quoting the article I linked to. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Glad to know you are not a universalist.

This has been an interesting conversation and it appears the universalists don't even believe all the same way either. One thing they do have in common though is that the doctrine is not supported by scripture.

 

[rjs330]

The only problem I have with self proclaimed prophets is if they have a unique view that virtually nobody else shares. The couple I've come across online pretty much spoke gobbledygook.

There are two ways to know if a prophet is a false one.

The first is to determine if what they procliam is actually biblical or is it not.

The second is to see if what they predict comes true. If it doesn't, they are a false prophet.

 

[rjs330]

Well put. That's been my understanding of how it's supposed to work.

That's how it works for those that believe.

And no everyone is not saved and just doesn't know it yet. Everyone is unsaved until they believe.

Nothing is left to chance. It is left to the individual to believe. That's not chance. Because everyone who believes IS saved.

 

[rjs330]

Im sorry I should’ve agreed with that post I was quoting because aionios does not always mean eternal or everlasting. The point I was trying to make is that it can mean everlasting or eternal but it can also refer to a limited amount of time like you said until the end of a particular age, like for example until the end of this world etc. Now aeon always refers to something eternal or everlasting So I apologize for not fully clarifying I’m at work and often have to make quick replies so sometimes they’re not very comprehensive.

One way to determine is context. Just like in the OT and the word Yom. Primarily the Greek word is translated as everlasting. Such as everlasting life. But context helps us understand what to focus on.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Oh my, that's quite a picture. - lol
Way funnier than being hit by a public transit bus.

When we get to the afterlife we will know as we are known.
Will we be able to name the last Chord we heard?
The accompaniment for our departure.

Or the existential question would be: If God dropped a piano on me, but I didn't hear it, did it really happen?

Depends on where you end up I suppose.

Perhaps that was the problem with the rebels in Ps 2:3, when they tried to 'break the chains and cast away the chords'. The HS warns us that we play throwaway chords at our own peril.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

So let me understand you correctly. Are you saying now that the wicked do not receive eternal life now after God's judgement and they are punished and tortured in the lake of fire until God forces them all into repentance?

You really only have two speeds there, my friend: torture or non-torture. Love doesn't torture. Love is patient love is kind and so on. How does a father correct his child? Ideally, with good discipline. God is the perfect Father, He's the great physician, not the Roman Magistrate. A bruised reed He won't break, nor a smouldering flax will He snuff out. His beef is with evil itself and its spiritual agents (the counterfeit trinity), not the people who are victims of it. He destroys wicked people by destroying the wickedness within, by revealing His grace and mighty works which melt even the hardest of hearts, and delivers ppl from their bondage to sin. And it is a hard heart indeed that condemns the poor, lost and blind to the flames in their ignorance. Jesus Christ represents God's commitment to saving us from this fate, to overcome by forgiveness even the worst crimes of regicide and deicide, for they know not what they do.

 

[Saint Steven]

Aionios is also used in just about every mention of eternal life as well.

That's the point. Aionios doesn't mean eternal. A translation bias (error) is indicated.