WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[ozso]

If there is no 2nd chance after death, how are all people saved? Obviously, not all people are saved in this life, are they?

Reading such passages as Romans 5:12-15 (really all of Romans 5) and say 1 Timothy 4:10
from a UR perspective, the atonement of sin was paid by the blood of Christ for all mankind.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

Overflow is a key word. This is God who shed His own blood for us. The scope and magnitude of that outshines anything that's ever transpired before or since in all of time and creation.

 

[Andrewn]

Overflow is a key word. This is God who shed His own blood for us. The scope and magnitude of that outshines anything that's ever transpired before or since in all of time and creation.

Yes, but still, if there is no 2nd chance to believe in Jesus after death, how are all people saved? Obviously, not all people are saved in this life, are they?

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, but still, if there is no 2nd chance to believe in Jesus after death, how are all people saved? Obviously, not all people are saved in this life, are they?

On what basis is anyone saved?
Salvation isn't something we do, it's something God, through Christ, has already done.

Everyone is saved, most don't know it yet. That's the good news.

There are no first or second chances. NOTHING is left to chance.

 

[ozso]

Yes, but still, if there is no 2nd chance to believe in Jesus after death, how are all people saved? Obviously, not all people are saved in this life, are they?

If what I already posted doesn't cover that question, I don't know what will. Where in the Bible does it talk about the 1st chance I keep hearing about? Hebrews 9:27? Anywhere else? Is it all just a matter of chance?

 

[Andrewn]

On what basis is anyone saved? Salvation isn't something we do, it's something God, through Christ, has already done. Everyone is saved, most don't know it yet. That's the good news. There are no first or second chances. NOTHING is left to chance.

If what I already posted doesn't cover that question, I don't know what will. Where in the Bible does it talk about the 1st chance I keep hearing about? Hebrews 9:27? Anywhere else?

As far as I understand, the difference between Christian Universalism and Unitarian Universalism is that the former requires faith in Christ.

Somehow I assumed that you believed in a 2nd chance for unbelievers in Hades but you do not seem to think that faith in Christ is required.

I wonder if @Hmm , @Lazarus Short , and @Shrewd Manager share that position.

 

[ozso]

As I see it, the only way there could be universal reconciliation, is if it took pace at the cross. A sealed done deal once and for all universally. If a proviso of man having to do something to gain or earn salvation is introduced into it, then it's no longer universal salvation, but rather conditional salvation.

 

[ozso]

As far as I understand, the difference between Christian Universalism and Unitarian Universalism is that the former requires faith in Christ.

Somehow I assumed that you believed in a 2nd chance for unbelievers in Hades but you do not seem to think that faith in Christ is required.

I wonder if @Hmm , @Lazarus Short , and @Shrewd Manager share that.

Unitarian universalism teaches that Christ did not die for our sins. What I'm saying is the power of God's shed blood takes precedence over everything else. I can't think of any Christian who would disagree with me regarding that statement.

 

[Hmm]

As far as I understand, the difference between Christian Universalism and Unitarian Universalism is that the former requires faith in Christ.

Somehow I assumed that you believed in a 2nd chance for unbelievers in Hades but you do not seem to think that faith in Christ is required.

I wonder if @Hmm , @Lazarus Short , and @Shrewd Manager share that position.

No, you're correct in saying that Christian universalism is Christocentric and believes that a faith in Christ is necessary for salvation whereas Unitarian universalism is pluralistic and has an "All roads lead to Rome" approach.

 

[Clare73]

More like a sausage to mince through the meatgrinder of systematic theology.
Scripture is alive, you can kill a butterfly and pin it to a table, but nobody will understand its truth, because it's dead and can't fly.
It's like trying to explain colour to a blind person.

Your interpretation leads to the punishment and destruction of most of mankind. It is no different from the pharisees' interpretation that led to the crucifixion of Christ. Both lead to murder and blaming the victim.
Gobbledegook.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

 

[Clare73]

Unitarian universalism teaches that Christ did not die for our sins. What I'm saying is
the power of God's shed blood takes precedence over everything else. I can't think of any Christian who would disagree with me regarding that statement.

Strawman. . .

It's not about the "power" of Christ's blood, it's about the terms for the application of that power, which is faith in and trust on the person and the atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ in this life for the remission of one's sin, and for right standing before God's justice; i.e., "not guilty" in the next life.

 

[rjs330]

"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10. UR sees that as a separation of unbelievers from believers both being saved, but those who believe are especially saved.

UR sees everyone believes eventually. It doesn't teach that everyone believes before they die. So they end up believing after they die.

The main argument for universalism is that a good and loving God would not condemn people to eternal torment in hell. Some universalists believe that after a certain cleansing period, God will free the inhabitants of hell and reconcile them to himself. Others say that after death, people will have another opportunity to choose God. For some who adhere to universalism, the doctrine also implies that there are many ways to get into heaven.

So yes, there is the belief in UR that you can get saved after death.

One reason my book is so lengthy is that there have been many different kinds of arguments for universal salvation over the last 1,800 years. At certain points, these arguments conflict with one another, so that if someone claims to be a universalist, you might ask: “What sort of universalist are you?”

One division is between the belief that everyone goes immediately to heaven at the moment of death (called “ultra-universalism”) and the belief that many or most people first undergo postmortem suffering (a view I call “purgationism”). This issue was fiercely debated in America during the 19th century, and universalists have never been able to resolve it.

How Universalism, ‘the Opiate of the Theologians,’ Went Mainstream

If you are a universalist, what kind are you?

 

[rjs330]

There isn't any requirement for more prophets of the kind you may have in mind; Jesus was the last prophet, prophesy already extends past the end of time, we should know what is coming; if we don't we are asleep and with out excuse. But there are other types of prophets; John the baptist, according to Jesus was the greatest of all prophets born to women (some prophets were not), and the only prediction John made was the kingdom of God was near; Jesus expects His followers to be prophets, there is a NT prophesy saying they will be prophets, not to make predictions but preach the Gospel that John and Jesus preached and not to be false prophets
;

This is good. Prophets are not what some may typically think. They are not "predictors of the future". Prophets are those who speak for God. "Thus saith the Lord" type stuff. Now some of the absolutely spoke of the future and events to come. Many gave prophecies of the coming of Christ. Some spoke of the far future like Daniel. Jesus spoke of future events as well as Peter and Paul. So, we don't want to get too narrow with what a prophet is. He speaks for God. And sometimes that includes speaking if the future.

 

[ozso]

UR sees everyone believes eventually. It doesn't teach that everyone believes before they die. So they end up believing after they die.

The main argument for universalism is that a good and loving God would not condemn people to eternal torment in hell. Some universalists believe that after a certain cleansing period, God will free the inhabitants of hell and reconcile them to himself. Others say that after death, people will have another opportunity to choose God. For some who adhere to universalism, the doctrine also implies that there are many ways to get into heaven.

So yes, there is the belief in UR that you can get saved after death.

One reason my book is so lengthy is that there have been many different kinds of arguments for universal salvation over the last 1,800 years. At certain points, these arguments conflict with one another, so that if someone claims to be a universalist, you might ask: “What sort of universalist are you?”

One division is between the belief that everyone goes immediately to heaven at the moment of death (called “ultra-universalism”) and the belief that many or most people first undergo postmortem suffering (a view I call “purgationism”). This issue was fiercely debated in America during the 19th century, and universalists have never been able to resolve it.

How Universalism, ‘the Opiate of the Theologians,’ Went Mainstream

If you are a universalist, what kind are you?

You wrote a book about it? I'm not a universalist, or Calvinist, or Baptist, or even a Pentecostal even though I've been attending a Pentecostal church for years. I'm just a Christian. And an orthodox one. There's probably a lot we agree on. Christian UR is a pet side interest of mine. To a degree. I haven't gone as far as reading any books about it, although I've watched some videos. My main theologian sources are Steve Gregg, Brad Jersak and David Bentley Hart. I'd say it's certainly not an exact science so to speak. There's no official Christian doctrine that I know of. I consider it unique in that it's a Christian doctrine or view that doesn't have anything to do with Christians.

 

[ozso]

This is good. Prophets are not what some may typically think. They are not "predictors of the future". Prophets are those who speak for God. "Thus saith the Lord" type stuff. Now some of the absolutely spoke of the future and events to come. Many gave prophecies of the coming of Christ. Some spoke of the far future like Daniel. Jesus spoke of future events as well as Peter and Paul. So, we don't want to get too narrow with what a prophet is. He speaks for God. And sometimes that includes speaking if the future.

The only problem I have with self proclaimed prophets is if they have a unique view that virtually nobody else shares. The couple I've come across online pretty much spoke gobbledygook.

 

[ozso]

On what basis is anyone saved?
Salvation isn't something we do, it's something God, through Christ, has already done.

Everyone is saved, most don't know it yet. That's the good news.

There are no first or second chances. NOTHING is left to chance.

Well put. That's been my understanding of how it's supposed to work.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Reading such passages as Romans 5:12-15 (really all of Romans 5) and say 1 Timothy 4:10
from a UR perspective, the atonement of sin was paid by the blood of Christ for all mankind.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

Overflow is a key word. This is God who shed His own blood for us. The scope and magnitude of that outshines anything that's ever transpired before or since in all of time and creation.

The "many" does not mean "all" also the scriptures do not say that all people will be saved anywhere in the bible. According to the scriptures, those who do not believe will not see life and will be destroyed (John 3:31; to many scriptures to post here) after the second coming. According to the scriptures God through Christ has made provision that all men should be saved. Gods salvation however is conditional to believing and following what God's Word says.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

On what basis is anyone saved?
Salvation isn't something we do, it's something God, through Christ, has already done. Everyone is saved, most don't know it yet. That's the good news. There are no first or second chances. NOTHING is left to chance.

According to the scriptures, those who do not believe will not see life and will be destroyed (John 3:31; to many scriptures to post here) after the second coming. According to the scriptures God through Christ has made provision that all men should be saved. Gods salvation however is conditional to believing and following what God's Word says.

 

[rjs330]

As I see it, the only way there could be universal reconciliation, is if it took pace at the cross. A sealed done deal once and for all universally. If a proviso of man having to do something to gain or earn salvation is introduced into it, then it's no longer universal salvation, but rather conditional salvation.

Jesus taught the only condition was to believe. So dis the apostles. So faith in Christ is required.

 

[rjs330]

As I see it, the only way there could be universal reconciliation, is if it took pace at the cross. A sealed done deal once and for all universally. If a proviso of man having to do something to gain or earn salvation is introduced into it, then it's no longer universal salvation, but rather conditional salvation.

If course. That's the typical belief. However that belief is in error and was not taught by Christ or the apostles. It's a false doctrine, because Christ and the apostles flatly contradict it with their teachings. Universalists really like to quote single verses or a couple of verses that seem to support them. However they neglect context and the myriad of scriptures that contradict it.

Since scripture does not contradict scripture then the answer is there if we just set aside our personal belief system. Which is simply, Christ died for all to make a way for all to be saved should they believe. His grace is not limited, but it is not without condition. It is accessable to all, with the requirement of belief in Christ. If every person whomever lived would put their faith in Christ then everyone would be saved.

But scripture clearly teaches that not everyone will do that. Of their own choice.

 

[rjs330]

No, you're correct in saying that Christian universalism is Christocentric and believes that a faith in Christ is necessary for salvation whereas Unitarian universalism is pluralistic and has an "All roads lead to Rome" approach.

And when do people believe. Before death, after death or both?