WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[BNR32FAN]

What you said is obviously true but it ignores the feelings of human beings who are created according to God's image and who will be damned.

When God told Abraham about destroying Sodom, the latter had feelings for human beings and started to bargain with God: what if there were 10 good people, 5 good people?

So, what if some non-Christians had 10% goodness, 5% goodness?

Perhaps for some Christians, even if non-Christians had 90% goodness they deserve to be destroyed bec they did not believe in Christ.

I'm sure that God is more merciful and compassionate.

I feel like this is a human approach or perspective, not necessarily God’s perspective. The thing I try to remember is that His ways are better than our’s and He knows what is best and if that is what He has declared then I am confident that He has good reason for it. Perhaps that reason has not been revealed to us. If I’m wrong, I’d rather be wrong believing what was written rather than being wrong questioning His motives. That’s my position.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I feel like this is a human approach or perspective, not necessarily God’s perspective. The thing I try to remember is that His ways are better than our’s and He knows what is best and if that is what He has declared then I am confident that He has good reason for it. Perhaps that reason has not been revealed to us. If I’m wrong, I’d rather be wrong believing what was written rather than being wrong questioning His motives. That’s my position.

I just see it as sin is sin and the wages of practicing sin without Christ is death *Romans 6:23. But God so loved our world that he was not willing that any should perish but that all should be saved who accept the sacrifice of Gods dear son *John 3:16-18. Jesus came to die the death that we deserve to die so that all men can be saved. Sadly not all men will choose to believe and therefore will not be saved according to John 3:36. The teachings of Universalism in my opinion makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace *Hebrews 10:26-31 because if it was true and all the wicked get a second chance after the second coming there was no need for God to come into our world and die the death that we all deserve to die. For me personally I see in God's justice and judgement of the wicked as God's love and mercy for all mankind in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us to save us from the waged of our sins which is death to bring us back to God. In my view one would have to disregard a lot of scripture as shown on page 1 of the OP to agree with the teachings of Universalism which to me is echoing the same lies told to Eve in the Garden of Eden. That is you can disobey God and not surely die *Genesis 3:1-5.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As I see it, the only way there could be universal reconciliation, is if it took pace at the cross. A sealed done deal once and for all universally. If a proviso of man having to do something to gain or earn salvation is introduced into it, then it's no longer universal salvation, but rather conditional salvation.

According to the scripture all of God's promises including Gods' salvation is indeed conditional on believing and obeying what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures *John 3:36; Matthew 7:21 and all that do not follow these conditions and accept the free gift of Gods' dear son will not receive everlasting life according to *Romans 6:23; John 3:36. Those who do not follow God's Word simply receive the wages of their own sin which is death because they reject the free gift of Gods' salvation offered by God's dear son *Hebrews 10:26-31 received through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9. See also the scriptures already provided here linked showing what happens to the unrepentant wicked

Take Care.

 

[sparow]

There are those who have been convinced that most of the Body of Christ is the apostate harlot of babylon beast riding jezebel et al. Whereas they're one of the chosen few who aren't. Such malarkey has been generated by the likes of EG White and HW Armstrong etc. Even if they don't see it and or can't admit to it, that kind of teaching is probably how it started for them.

BTW, are you getting this ur thread mixed up with one of the sabbath law threads?

I believe we are being adequately controversial for this thread. Man's mind works between limits, we have been given a time line from creation (west) to the end of time (east); man's mind and the plan of salvation is geared for this interval, but we have to be careful not to slip south into nihilism.

The idea that the Universal Church (the Papacy) was the Beast and/or Jezebel was at the heart of the Reformation, a long time before White and Armstrong. If you were familiar with Church history you would know of the Council of Trent where one Jesuit Priest (Ribera) presented a thesis called futurism that placed the Beast of Revelation down at the time of the end, out side of the time frame of the Papacy; a second Jesuit presented a thesis called Preterism that placed the Beast before the Papacy. These did not convince the Protestants so as a last ditch the Catholic Church said, "If you want to go with the Bible and the Bible alone you will have to keep the seventh day Sabbath, because the is no authority other than the Catholic Church for changing the day from Saturday to Sunday. Such was Protestant hatred of the Sabbath that they folded giving the Papacy the victory; the Reformation came to a standstill and the Inquisitions restarted.

This is not so much about the Sabbath and the Law as it is about Doctrines of Men.

 

[sparow]

You got this backward. Everything in the OT should be tested against the NT, not the other way around .

If you choose to put the cart before the horse that doesn't matter so long as the two are in agreement.

 

[Saint Steven]

If what I already posted doesn't cover that question, I don't know what will. Where in the Bible does it talk about the 1st chance I keep hearing about? Hebrews 9:27? Anywhere else? Is it all just a matter of chance?

Hebrews 9:27 is a good rebuttal for reincarnation, but really says nothing about a "first chance". Everyone will face judgment after life is completed here. The verse doesn't discriminate either way.

 

[Saint Steven]

As far as I understand, the difference between Christian Universalism and Unitarian Universalism is that the former requires faith in Christ.

Somehow I assumed that you believed in a 2nd chance for unbelievers in Hades but you do not seem to think that faith in Christ is required.

I wonder if @Hmm , @Lazarus Short , and @Shrewd Manager share that position.

I'm sorry that you misunderstood me.
I definitely believe that faith in Christ is required. (before entering heaven)
But this does not change the fact that God has already saved everyone.
More than that (being saved) is required to enter heaven. Does that make sense now?

 

[Saint Steven]

As I see it, the only way there could be universal reconciliation, is if it took pace at the cross. A sealed done deal once and for all universally. If a proviso of man having to do something to gain or earn salvation is introduced into it, then it's no longer universal salvation, but rather conditional salvation.

Agree.
And if a condition is applied, how are such things measured?
- Did you do it right?
- Did you do enough?
- Did you REALLY mean it?
Salvation for all through God is easily measured. Done deal.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD, IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL?

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too many more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

1 JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditions for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF (conditional) you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.. There is no second chances after the 2nd coming.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

............

QUESTION: IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL BEFORE THE 2ND COMING?

ANSWER: According to God's Word, our salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING what God's Word says BEFORE THE SECOND COMING as shown in both the old and new testament scriptures. Those who do not believe and follow Gods' Word are not his Sheep. God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear and follow are not His sheep *JOHN 10:26-27

Blessings

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Agree. And if a condition is applied, how are such things measured?

All of God's promises are conditional as is our salvation on believing and obeying what Gods' Word says (scriptures here) * Matthew 7:21-23; John 3:36

 

[LoveGodsWord]

UR sees that as a separation of unbelievers from believers both being saved, but those who believe are especially saved.

If according to your post the teachings of Universalism state both the unbelievers and believers are saved how can one group be "especially saved"? Although I do not believe this statement to be biblical or supported in the scriptures, I am finding it difficult to understand what you mean here. Genuine question.

 

[ozso]

If course. That's the typical belief. However that belief is in error and was not taught by Christ or the apostles. It's a false doctrine, because Christ and the apostles flatly contradict it with their teachings. Universalists really like to quote single verses or a couple of verses that seem to support them. However they neglect context and the myriad of scriptures that contradict it.

Since scripture does not contradict scripture then the answer is there if we just set aside our personal belief system. Which is simply, Christ died for all to make a way for all to be saved should they believe. His grace is not limited, but it is not without condition. It is accessable to all, with the requirement of belief in Christ. If every person whomever lived would put their faith in Christ then everyone would be saved.

But scripture clearly teaches that not everyone will do that. Of their own choice.

The Christian univsalists I've heard from, especially the ones who are theologians, have been more thorough and dogmatic than you're making them out to be. It's not as superficial as a couple of out of context verses. They claim there is actually more biblical support for it than there is for the eternal torment of most of mankind. And I have seen a lot of biblical support that appears to weigh in their favor. Whereas the biblical support for the opposite doesn't appear to stand up as well. I've seen text used that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with eternal torment. Some of it appears to more likely be national judgment very similar to national judgements given by the prophets before Israel's downfall at the hands of Babylon. Whereas Jesus was saying the same types of things, using the same kind of language, right before Israel's downfall at the hands of Rome.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

As far as I understand, the difference between Christian Universalism and Unitarian Universalism is that the former requires faith in Christ.

Somehow I assumed that you believed in a 2nd chance for unbelievers in Hades but you do not seem to think that faith in Christ is required.

I wonder if @Hmm , @Lazarus Short , and @Shrewd Manager share that position.

I think scripture teaches salvation after death. Jesus has conquered death, it's no obstacle. He judges the quick and the dead, and his judgments are righteous. Holds the keys, jailbreaks the prisoners, retrieves the goods, raises the dead etc. That's what the work of the cross was about, the death of mankind in Adam and raising to life anew in Christ.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The main argument for universalism is that a good and loving God would not condemn people to eternal torment in hell.

With respect, that's not the main argument imho. The main argument is that UR glorifies God (and has the most scriptural support). If Salvation is the omega plan, it's no victory to have to concede most of the nuts you created were just too tough for you to crack. Doubt not that even the most cynical unbeliever and wicked sinner is within reach. God will go further to save than the devil can go to destroy, Jesus will go through death and hell to pluck you from the fire. Aye there's your good news, if you can handle it.

And in that glory, the certainty that God will overcome all opposition, are we made more than conquerors. Those who fail to grasp universalism really don't get that God is unlike the others, they just want to make Him a bigger Caesar. Not same same, velly different.

 

[ozso]

Jesus taught the only condition was to believe. So dis the apostles. So faith in Christ is required.

Here's the thing though. Many Christians say belief and faith in Christ do not lead to salvation. Verses used to show that unbelievers are condemned like Matthew 5, Matthew 7, Matthew 25, Mark 9, 1 Corinthians 6 are also used to show that Christians who believe in and have faith in Christ are going to hell.

When that happens, which is often, needing to believe in Christ to be saved and needing to have faith in Christ to be saved, goes out the window. Belief and faith are nullified as requirements of salvation. Because the Christian who believs in and has faith in Christ, isn't being sinless enough and isn't producing enough works.

 

[ozso]

I feel like this is a human approach or perspective, not necessarily God’s perspective. The thing I try to remember is that His ways are better than our’s and He knows what is best and if that is what He has declared then I am confident that He has good reason for it. Perhaps that reason has not been revealed to us. If I’m wrong, I’d rather be wrong believing what was written rather than being wrong questioning His motives. That’s my position.

It's not questioning God's motives, it's questioning what's said about God's motives. That what's said by man regarding God's motives and methods is incorrect. It's always an argument against the interpretation of scripture, rather than scripture itself. They don't say that God is a "tyrant" but rather that man misuses scripture to make God out to be a tyrant, in their view.

 

[Andrewn]

When that happens, which is often, needing to believe in Christ to be saved and needing to have faith in Christ to be saved, goes out the window. Belief and faith are nullified as requirements of salvation. Because the Christian who believs in and has faith in Christ, isn't being sinless enough and isn't producing enough works.

I think you've expressed this view many times, indirectly. But here you express it directly.

We agree that believers are not sinless enough and isn't producing enough works. But this is the whole point of justification: being considered righteous, being made righteous, being declared righteous. God looks at the heart. Is the heart pure? Or is the mind carnal?

Abraham was not considered righteous because he was sinless enough or produced enough works. He was considered righteous because he had faith and tried to do what the Lord commanded him to do. Faith is not giving intellectual assent to certain statements or creeds. Faith is to express love for God and for others by sacrificing my happiness and comfort.

Abraham was not sinless at all. But he tried to love the Lord with all his heart, soul, strength, and mind. In the same way all the saints were declared "righteous."

 

[ozso]

I think you've expressed this view many times, indirectly. But here you express it directly.

We agree that believers are not sinless enough and isn't producing enough works. But this is the whole point of justification: being considered righteous, being made righteous, being declared righteous. God looks at the heart. Is the heart pure? Or is the mind carnal?

Abraham was not considered righteous because he was sinless enough or produced enough works. He was considered righteous because he had faith and tried to do what the Lord commanded him to do. Faith is not giving intellectual assent to certain statements or creeds. Faith is to express love for God and for others by sacrificing my happiness and comfort.

Abraham was not sinless at all. But he tried to love the Lord with all his heart, soul, strength, and mind. In the same way all the saints were declared "righteous."

That seems like performance taking precedence over belief.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's not questioning God's motives, it's questioning what's said about God's motives. That what's said by man regarding God's motives and methods is incorrect. It's always an argument against the interpretation of scripture, rather than scripture itself. They don't say that God is a "tyrant" but rather that man misuses scripture to make God out to be a tyrant, in their view.

So what your saying is, if your interpretation is incorrect then God is a tyrant, instead of saying He must have a good reason for this decision.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here's the thing though. Many Christians say belief and faith in Christ do not lead to salvation. Verses used to show that unbelievers are condemned like Matthew 5, Matthew 7, Matthew 25, Mark 9, 1 Corinthians 6 are also used to show that Christians who believe in and have faith in Christ are going to hell.

Those verses are referring to false professors who are trying to escape their deserved punishment. They can fool some but not God.