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Featured Why tribulation?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by W2L, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I guess we have a disagreement on definition of terms. Certainly God knows every little detail of our lives and he cares for us. On this we do not disagree. What we call tribulation, however, we disagree.

    I am not dismissing the troubles we all may have, but, frankly, there are many petty little troubles that God wants us to to tough up on and does not intervene according to our wishes. He is a wise Father who does not spoil his children. He does not answer every prayer that we throw at him. For example, when Paul petitioned the Lord to remove the thorn in his flesh, the Lord's response was that His grace was sufficient for him. In other words, No he will not remove the thorn, but he will carry him through his trial.
     
  2. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi W2L, A. W. Pink said this:
    I love this quote of Pink's :oldthumbsup: Though it's talking about God's "blessings" (or the lack thereof), I think an analogy can be drawn in the fact that whether God allows tribulations (or holds them back) or whether He blesses us today (or chooses not to), we can trust that He's always using the fittest means possible to get our focus and our reliance off of ourselves and onto Him, as well to continue to shape us into the image of His Son .. cf Philippians 1:6, 2:13; Hebrews 12:7-11.

    --David
    p.s. - this was a blind post, so I apologize if this has all been covered, or worse, that it is off topic somehow!

    "Our vision is so limited we can hardly imagine a love that does not show itself in protection from suffering.... The love of God did not protect His own Son.... He will not necessarily protect us - not from anything it takes to make us like His Son. A lot of hammering and chiseling and purifying by fire will have to go into the process" ~Elisabeth Elliot
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  3. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
  4. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Sounds agreeable.
     
  5. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the re.
     
  6. thetruth0

    thetruth0 Member

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    Tell me then, how do you know if you are being tested? Are you then saying that the GOD gives you those hardships and afflictions? Why would the GOD who is all loving, put HIS children through heart break?
     
  7. thetruth0

    thetruth0 Member

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    <Staff Edit>
    Yet Job is called Righteous in all the land of Uz. He had not wavered at all before tribulation. So why test him? The GOD who is all loving does not put HIS children through heart break, HE mends the broken Hearted. To say that HE causes the heart break just so HE can mend it is blasphemy against the Character of GOD.

    It amazes me, that people say GOD is all knowing, but they are just giving HIM lip service, because they don't truly acknowledge that GOD knows the end from the beginning.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2017
  8. the old scribe

    the old scribe old scribe Supporter

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    Tribulation scriptures

    Greek thlipsis

    θλῖψις, -εως, ἡ

    Strong's number: 2347

    GK Number: 2568

    Frequency in New Testament: 45

    Gloss: trouble, distress, oppression, tribulation

    Definition: pr. pressure, compression; met. affliction, distress of mind, 2 Cor. 2:4; distressing circumstances, trial, affliction
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Frequency in New Testament: 45

    Greek-English Concordance for θλῖψις
    Translations by MOUNCE of the 45 New Testament verses where the Greek thlipsis is used.

    Matthew 13:21
    suffering
    yet he has no root in himself but lasts only a short time, and when suffering (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) or persecution arises on account of the message, immediately he falls away.

    Matthew 24:9
    persecuted
    Then they will hand you over to be persecuted (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.

    Matthew 24:21
    suffering
    For then there will be great suffering (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem), such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and will never be again.

    Matthew 24:29
    suffering
    “Immediately after the suffering (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    Mark 4:17
    tribulation
    But they have no root in themselves and last for only a limited time. last for Then, when tribulation (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) or persecution comes because of the word, immediately they fall away.

    Mark 13:19
    tribulation
    because those will be days of such tribulation (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem) as has never happened from the beginning of creation, which God created, until now, nor ever will be.

    Mark 13:24
    But in those days, after that tribulation (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,

    John 16:21
    anguish
    When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come; but when the baby is born, she no longer remembers the anguish (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem), because of the joy that a child has been born into the world.

    John 16:33
    tribulation
    I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), but take courage, I have conquered the world.”

    Acts 7:10
    afflictions
    and rescued him out of all his afflictions (thlipseōn | θλίψεων | gen pl fem) and gave him favor and wisdom before Pharaoh, king of Egypt, who appointed him ruler over Egypt and over all his royal household.

    Acts 7:11
    affliction
    Now there came a famine upon all Egypt and Canaan, bringing great affliction (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem), and our fathers could find no food.

    Acts 11:19
    persecution
    Now those who were scattered because of the persecution (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem), which came to pass over Stephen, made their way as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews only.

    Acts 14:22
    tribulations
    strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “It is through many tribulations (thlipseōn | θλίψεων | gen pl fem) that we must enter the kingdom of God.”

    Acts 20:23
    persecutions
    except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me, saying that in every city imprisonment and persecutions (thlipseis | θλίψεις | nom pl fem) are waiting for me.

    Romans 2:9
    tribulation
    There will be tribulation (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem) and distress for every human being who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,

    Romans 5:3
    sufferings
    And not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem), knowing that suffering (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem) produces endurance,

    Romans 8:35
    tribulation
    Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can tribulation (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem), or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

    Romans 12:12
    suffering
    rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), devote yourself to prayer;

    1 Corinthians 7:28
    trouble
    But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. However those who do marry will have worldly trouble (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), and I am trying to spare you.

    2 Corinthians 1:4
    troubles
    who encourages us in all our troubles (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), so that we may be able to encourage those experiencing any trouble (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem) with the encouragement with which we ourselves are encouraged by God.

    2 Corinthians 1:8
    affliction
    For we want you to know, brothers, about the affliction (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) we suffered in Asia, that we were burdened excessively beyond our power to cope, so that we despaired even of living.

    2 Corinthians 2:4
    distress
    For out of much distress (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) and anguish of heart I wrote to you, with many tears, not to cause you sorrow but to let you know the love that I have especially for you.

    2 Corinthians 4:17
    affliction
    For our momentary lightness of affliction (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,

    2 Corinthians 6:4
    affliction
    Rather, as servants of God, we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance, in times of affliction (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem), hardship, and distress;

    2 Corinthians 7:4
    distress
    I have great confidence in you; I take great pride in you. I am filled with encouragement; I am overflowing with joy in all our distress (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem).

    2 Corinthians 8:2
    affliction
    how that in a severe test of affliction (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem), the fullness of their joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in the richness of their generosity.

    2 Corinthians 8:13
    burden
    For this is not for the ease of others and a burden (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem) for you, but a matter of equality;

    Ephesians 3:13
    sufferings
    I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem) on your behalf, which are your glory.

    Philippians 1:17
    distress
    The former proclaim Christ out of a sense of hostility, not sincerely, intending to increase my distress (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) while I am in prison.

    Philippians 4:14
    distress
    However, you have acted nobly, sharing with me in my distress (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem).

    Colossians 1:24
    afflictions
    I am now rejoicing in my sufferings on your behalf, and in my flesh am completing what is lacking in the afflictions (thlipseōn | θλίψεων | gen pl fem) of Christ in flesh my for the sake of his body, his which is the church,

    1 Thessalonians 1:6
    affliction
    And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you accepted the word in the midst of much affliction (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), with the joy of the Holy Spirit.

    1 Thessalonians 3:3
    afflictions
    so that no one would be moved by these afflictions (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem). For you yourselves know that we were destined for this.

    1 Thessalonians 3:7
    affliction
    So in all our distress and affliction (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), brothers, we have been reassured about you by your faith.

    2 Thessalonians 1:4
    afflictions
    so that we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all the persecutions and afflictions (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem) that you are enduring.

    2 Thessalonians 1:6
    affliction
    For it is a righteous thing for God to repay with affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) those who afflict you,

    Hebrews 10:33
    persecutions
    Sometimes you were made a public spectacle, both by insults and persecutions (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem), and at other times you became one with those who were treated in that way,

    James 1:27
    trouble
    Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their time of trouble (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

    Revelation 1:9
    tribulation
    I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem) and kingdom and patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

    Revelation 2:9
    affliction
    I know your affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander against you by those who call themselves Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    Revelation 2:10
    affliction
    Do not fear what you are about to suffer. The devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and you will have affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    Revelation 2:22
    affliction
    Beware, I will throw her onto a bed of suffering, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), unless they repent of her ways.

    Revelation 7:14
    tribulation
    I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem); they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    ASV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation twenty-one (21) times in the New Testament.

    ESV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation sixteen times (16) in the New Testament.

    GNV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation twenty times (20) in the New Testament.

    HCSB translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation ten times (10) in the New Testament.

    KJV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation twenty-one times (21) in the New Testament.

    NASB translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation twenty times (20) in the New Testament.

    NIV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation one time (1) in the New Testament.

    NKJV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation thirty times (30) in the New Testament.

    RSV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation seventeen times (17) in the New Testament.

    WEB translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation one time (1) in the New Testament.

    YLT translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation forty-four times (44) in the New Testament.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    MOUNCE translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation eight times (8) in the New Testament.

    Mark 4:17
    But they have no root in themselves and last for only a limited time. Then, when tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, immediately they fall away.

    Mark 13:19
    because those will be · days of such tribulation as has never happened from the

    Mark 13:24
    But in those · days, after · that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give · its light,

    John 16:33
    I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage, I have conquered the world.”

    Romans 2:9
    There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does · evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,

    Romans 8:35
    Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

    Revelation 1:9
    I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and kingdom and patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island · called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

    Revelation 7:14
    I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; · · they have washed · their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
     
  9. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    I never said that God gives us hardship, but he allows us to endure it because its good for us. How else will our faith be tested? Are you saying God doesnt test out faith? If so, explain all those scriptures i posted.
     
  10. thetruth0

    thetruth0 Member

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    wha
    i was saying is that HE already knows if you will pass or fail said test before HE allows it. Thus, it is not to prove your faith to HIM. Rather, to show lucifer that he can't have you.

    Therefore, rejoice in your tribulation, because the GOD that knows the end from the beginning has found you worthy of it. As HE already knows you will pass.
     
  11. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
  12. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was reading a newsletter from a group supporting missionaries in India. The Christian pastors suffered beatings from the Hindu establishment. There were accounts of one being falsely accused of vandalizing a Hindu idol and taken to court. One was forced to eat food offered to a Hindu god in a Hindu temple. One had his fingers broken by Hindu extremists. Hindu militants threatened to burn down the house of a house church pastor.

    One who stayed in his village was eventually made an outcast. Anyone who was caught talking to him, or doing business with him would have been fined. He had to walk miles to buy groceries. His sisters were trying to take his ten acre coffee grove by lawsuit.

    One preacher went from town to town on his bicycle preaching the Gospel. He had been harassed and beaten, but not killed.

    In some Islamic lands, Christians were forced into exile or executed for their faith.

    Trials and tribulations happened to both sinners and saints. There is no great reward for a sinner who is beaten and robbed. There is a reward for the one who suffers for preaching in the name of Christ. These Indian preachers were suffering torment at the hands of men for their interest in Christianity.
     
  13. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Yes i agree. I would also say that God can even use our faults and turn them into blessing. In my opinion.
     
  14. Mafeking

    Mafeking Mafeking

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    There are times when GOD tests directly, and there are times when difficulties are simply the way things are. If you want to get to the point of running 10 miles nonstop though you never ran before you must begin to practice and do all the things necessary to get to that point.
     
  15. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
  16. derpytia

    derpytia Compassion. Supporter

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    I think it's different for everyone. For me I think God wanted to make it so that I have to rely on him for everything and not myself or my own understanding. What is ironic is that when I was confirmed, my pastor gave me this Bible verse: Proverbs 3:5-6 (NIV)

    5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.


    I can tell you that I struggle with that and there are times where it gets out of control.

    God needed to allow me to get knocked down not just a peg or two, not just down to my knees, but to the point where I'm eating dust just to get this through my thick skull. Yet I still struggle with it so that just goes to show how utterly sinful I am and how incredibly merciful God is.
     
  17. thetruth0

    thetruth0 Member

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    Im sorry, but the GOD does knock HIS children down only to bring them up again. What father does that to HIS children, though being evil in the earth? Fatherhood is not a title, it is a responsibility. The LORD GOD of Creation is the MOST responsible. HE is not irresponsible.

    HE chastises, yes, but HE does not purposely bring HIS children down to eat dust. We do not FALL in love, WE RISE in love.
     
  18. derpytia

    derpytia Compassion. Supporter

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    I never said God did it. I said he allowed it. And to be quite honest, I needed to. Before I got knocked down I was selfish, prideful, and so far away from God even though I had been raised Christian. God did not stretch out His hand to knock me down. I'm pretty sure outside things and even myself contributed to me being knocked down. But He allowed it to happen so that I might learn and grow from it. Don't think that God wasn't with me as I got back up again. I think I'm also still in the process of getting back up. God's still with me.
     
  19. thetruth0

    thetruth0 Member

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    There is a Spiritual Law in operation
    Ye reap what ye sow.

    GOD is the GOD of Justice, the Most Righteous Judge.

    There are consequences for everything you do. So when people say "GOD allowed it" it shows that they think that the Hedge which was around them, protecting them from hardships etc... that the GOD purposely removed them to allow tribulation. No, this is not true. The GOD of Creation does not do such things. I know that it is written that way in Job, but it is a blasphemy against the Character of GOD.

    Even saying that the GOD is your shield. SO what happens when something gets through the shield? IS it still GOD that is shielding you? No! It is the WORD of GOD which shields you, your knowledge of GOD which fortifies you! The Revelations of GOD that you have assimilated which Strengthen you.

    So, what im saying is the things one goes through are a result of that law. Look at Deut 28.
    Whatsoever a man sows, he shall reap
    Whatsoever ye would, that men should do unto you, do so even unto them. For that is the LAW and the Prophets.

    When we experience tribulations, it is because the things we have sown we are reaping. It is not because the GOD has allowed them, but because it is Justice. the GOD is not Partial, HE does not show partiality. HE rewards those who diligently seek HIM. Because those who are seeking HIM, are the same as those that are assimilating HIS WORD. For it is HIS WORD that testifies of HIM, and reveals who the GOD is.
     
  20. derpytia

    derpytia Compassion. Supporter

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    So are you saying that the book of Job is blasphemy against God? Or are you saying that I'm not in Christ and therefore not saved because I suffered so much and continue to suffer? Suffering in this world is the result of sin. Some of my own suffering is a direct result of my own sin and folly. Some of it is not. But God is in control of all things in the end and He allowed it to happen for His purposes. I find your view on this a little cold in regards to Christians who suffer horribly in life.
     
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