Why There Cannot Be Predestination

[VCViking]

If you read John 5:40 you will see free will loud and clear. "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Why do men not come to Jesus? You would possibly say it is because the Holy Ghost prevents them from coming, but that would not be scripturally correct. They do not come to Jesus because they either choose not to come to Him or they do not choose anything at all (you can call it fatal, eternal apathy).

Matthan

I'm not against free will and I agree with your statement. Not sure where I stated otherwise.

 

[VCViking]

Men are condemned because they love darkness rather than light...

Not according to Calvinism. It doesn't matter what they love or not love. Men are condemned because they were not chosen by God, not one of the elect.

 

[VCViking]

Men are condemned because they love darkness rather than light not because provision was made for their salvation... Nothing in there about provision being made for their salvation nor about it being offered to them.

The provision is Jesus and He offered Himself on the cross.



provision:

Main Entry: 1pro·vi·sion
Pronunciation: pr&-'vi-zh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin provision-, provisio act of providing, from Latin, foresight, from providEre to see ahead -- more at [SIZE=-1]PROVIDE[/SIZE]
1 a : the act or process of providing

 

[VCViking]

They would not come to Christ that they might have life because they didn't see Him as what He was, the Son of God, and they make God a liar because they do not believe the record God gave of His Son.

According to Calvinism, they do not come to Christ because He did not choose them.

 

[mlqurgw]

Please dont misinterpret this next comment because i respect and love you as another brother in Christ. I am about to make a comparison, but not you to another person, rather your arguments compared to another person's arguments. Confused? Let me explain.

I was debating a practicing homosexual who thought homosexuality was not a sin. When I presented him the numerous passages in the Bible that condemned homosexual behaviour, he always had a way to explain them away. He always had an answer for every verse. I was reading them out of context. The word really meant this, not that. Supposedly, one verse was really condemning homsexual prostitutes, another was really condemning homosexual behavior in pagan rituals, another was really condemning homosexual rape, another was only talking about cleanliness. The verses werent really talking about homsexual behavior in a loving monogamous relationship.

Now, dont confuse what I am saying - I am not comparing Calvinists to homosexuals! God forbid! I am comparing the line of reasoning that this homosexual was using with the same line of reasoning you are using on these scriptures.... Instead of just reading the words in plain balck and white, you say I am reading verses out of context, this word really means this, "all men" doesnt really mean "all men", the "whole world" doesnt really mean "whole world", etc.

All I'm saying is, God had the power to make it crystal clear if Jesus only died for an elect group. But God allowed the words "all men" and "whole world" and "every man" to be in the Bible for a reason.

I do understand your reasoning and do not take offense in the least. Still, there is a vast difference in my responses and those of the one you were talking to. I am not seeking to justify my reasoning but only to encourage you to look at how those words and statements are used in their context. If you would do so you will find that what I have said is true. Give it some honest, unbiased thought and then you will see what I am saying. As far as it being clear, it is, though many are blinded by their refusal to give up their sovereignty and control of their destiny.

BTW; I am more than willing to be cordial in debate but have no problem answering those who wish to engage in battle with the same brutality that they exhibit. I can come across as arrogant as them or as humble as them. They set the tone.

 

[mlqurgw]

Not according to Calvinism. It doesn't matter what they love or not love. Men are condemned because they were not chosen by God, not one of the elect.

That is neither Calvinism nor Scripture and is therefore a false accusation. It is a straw man that will not die no matter how often it is shown to be utterly ridiculous. It is also ignoring my statements altogether.

 

[mlqurgw]

The provision is Jesus and He offered Himself on the cross.



provision:

Main Entry: 1pro·vi·sion
Pronunciation: pr&-'vi-zh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin provision-, provisio act of providing, from Latin, foresight, from providEre to see ahead -- more at [SIZE=-1]PROVIDE[/SIZE]
1 a : the act or process of providing

My statements were according to the passages referenced. Nowhere is it said in them that He made provision for salvation. Actually it is not intimated anywhere in the New Testament. Everywhere the atonement of Christ is spoken of or taught it is referred to as an accomplished fact. Salvation isn't spoken of as a possibility but as something Christ has accomplished for someone.

 

[mlqurgw]

According to Calvinism, they do not come to Christ because He did not choose them.

Another false accusation that has no basis in truth. Men build straw men arguments in order to tear them down but they only show that the builder cannot tear down the actual facts.

 

[JacobHall86]

Ok, someone please answer these two questions. (Anti-Calvinists please)

1. Can someone be saved with first having God call them to repentance and faith in Christ?

2. Before we know Christ, are we dead in our sin?

 

[heymikey80]

Not according to Calvinism. It doesn't matter what they love or not love. Men are condemned because they were not chosen by God, not one of the elect.

That's simply a lie, and easily proved to be such:

God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin ... Westminster Confession, Ch. 3, Sec. 7
​

Take it back. What you've said is a bald-faced lie, and well known to be a lie.

We love because He first loved us.
​

It's flatly obvious that we didn't start loving God before He loved us. Our love is because of God's love. Our love is not as a prerequisite to His. Second, "God is love." It's impossible to think we could love without love! So it's impossible to love without God.

 

[heymikey80]

(To the OP)
I realize it's a common mistake, and sometimes Calvinists even make it. But it's a mistake to think foreordination or predestination is fore-judgment or fore-salvation.

God foreordained all people to judgment for their sinfulness and for their sinful works. Their works are known, their judgment is sure. But their works are future, and their judgment is future as well.

God foreordained some people to rescue from the condemnation of this judgment His own mercy and favor. The judgment was paid, the Cross lifted. In this case the rescue is ultimately fulfilled in the future; but tokens and seals of that rescue may and do occur before then

Calvinism operates on this principle: "God ordains means as well as ends." (various, e.g. Loraine Boettner) And so the idea is mistaken that foreordination excludes the idea of people incurring judgment for their sins in history. God ordained such means as freely, wilfully committing sins to incur a judgment He also ordained.

 

[VCViking]

You wrote:
Men are condemned because they love darkness rather than light...

I wrote:
Not according to Calvinism. It doesn't matter what they love or not love. Men are condemned because they were not chosen by God, not one of the elect.

That is neither Calvinism nor Scripture and is therefore a false accusation. It is a straw man that will not die no matter how often it is shown to be utterly ridiculous. It is also ignoring my statements altogether.

Wrong. That is Calvinism.
Right. It's not Scripture.


Unconditional election: God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy.


John Calvin on the doctrine:

Calvin’s Institutes (1559), Book III, Chapter 21, section 7

We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment. In regard to the elect, we regard calling as the evidence of election, and justification as another symbol of its manifestation, until it is fully accomplished by the attainment of glory. But as the Lord seals his elect by calling and justification, so by excluding the reprobate either from the knowledge of his name or the sanctification of his Spirit, he by these marks in a manner discloses the judgment which awaits them.


From the Calvinist leaning Christianity Today magazine:

Unconditional election: God chooses to save some people, not because of anything they have done, but according to his sovereign will (Acts 13:48; Rom. 9; Eph. 1:3-6). Some Calvinists have also taught that God elects certain people to damnation, but few advance this view aggressively. This contrasts with other Christian traditions that teach that God desires to save everyone, but only elects those whom he foreknows will respond to his grace.


Here are all the 5 points of Calvinism from the same article from Christianity Today:

Total depravity: We cannot respond to God's offer of salvation, since our will—indeed, our whole being—has been rendered incapable by sin (Rom. 3:9-10; Rom. 8:7-8; 2 Cor. 4:4). Regeneration by the Holy Spirit must precede our response of faith. This contrasts with Christian traditions that say we have sufficient free will to respond to God's offer of salvation or that we can "cooperate" with grace.

Unconditional election: God chooses to save some people, not because of anything they have done, but according to his sovereign will (Acts 13:48; Rom. 9; Eph. 1:3-6). Some Calvinists have also taught that God elects certain people to damnation, but few advance this view aggressively. This contrasts with other Christian traditions that teach that God desires to save everyone, but only elects those whom he foreknows will respond to his grace.

Limited atonement: Christ died for the sins of the church, not for the whole world (John 10:15; Mark 10:45; Rev. 5:9). This contrasts with traditions that teach that Christ died for all, even though all may not appropriate the benefits of his sacrifice.

Irresistible grace: Those God elects cannot resist the Holy Spirit's draw to salvation (John 6:44; 1 Cor. 1:23-24; Acts 16:14). Again, this contrasts with Christian traditions that teach that we are able to reject God's forgiveness—thus, while God may choose to save everyone, not everyone chooses to believe.

Perseverance of the saints: By God's power, believers will endure in faith to the end (John 10:28; Rom. 8:30; Phil. 1:6). Other Christian traditions teach that people can forsake faith and lose salvation.


Labeling people straw men is a cop out.

 

[PETE_]

You wrote:
Men are condemned because they love darkness rather than light...

I wrote:
Not according to Calvinism. It doesn't matter what they love or not love. Men are condemned because they were not chosen by God, not one of the elect.

One must love God, but you seem to believe that an unregenerate man can love God. Can you show any scripture to substantiate that he can? Calvinists claim that he cannot love God until God changes him first.

 

[VCViking]

Originally Posted by VCViking
Not according to Calvinism. It doesn't matter what they love or not love. Men are condemned because they were not chosen by God, not one of the elect.

That's simply a lie, and easily proved to be such:

God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin ... Westminster Confession, Ch. 3, Sec. 7​

Take it back. What you've said is a bald-faced lie, and well known to be a lie.

We love because He first loved us.​

It's flatly obvious that we didn't start loving God before He loved us. Our love is because of God's love. Our love is not as a prerequisite to His. Second, "God is love." It's impossible to think we could love without love! So it's impossible to love without God.

According to Calvinism, it's not a lie. I said nothing of what Presbyterian's and those of Reformed theology believe. I was raised Luthern and eventually Reformed and confirmed under the Reformed Church of America (RCA). There are Reformed and Presbyterian churches that do not hold to all of Calvinism. Obviously they are the minority. And I'm not here to debate that either.

So, my quote was towards Calvinsim, from statements made by Calvinists.

 

[VCViking]

One must love God, but you seem to believe that an unregenerate man can love God. Can you show any scripture to substantiate that he can? Calvinists claim that he cannot love God until God changes him first.

I believe in total depravity, but I do not believe in total inability that TULIP teaches.

The Bible teaches we are totally depraved, but it does not teach total inability. The Bible teaches that we came here totally depraved. Passage after passage talks about what terrible sinners were are, how we are lost and undone. But the Bible also teaches the Lord Jesus Christ, the Light of the world lights every man who come into the world, therefore making him responsible and giving him the ability to accept Christ as Savior.

John 1:6-9

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

We are born totally depraved, but the Lord Jesus gives enough light to every man to make him responsible to hear and to reject or accept the Gospel of the Son of God.

John 12:32, John 5:40, Romans 1:19,20, Romans 2:11-16, Matthew 11:28

 

[mlqurgw]

You wrote:
Men are condemned because they love darkness rather than light...

I wrote:
Not according to Calvinism. It doesn't matter what they love or not love. Men are condemned because they were not chosen by God, not one of the elect.






Wrong. That is Calvinism.
Right. It's not Scripture.


Unconditional election: God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy.


John Calvin on the doctrine:

Calvin’s Institutes (1559), Book III, Chapter 21, section 7

We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment. In regard to the elect, we regard calling as the evidence of election, and justification as another symbol of its manifestation, until it is fully accomplished by the attainment of glory. But as the Lord seals his elect by calling and justification, so by excluding the reprobate either from the knowledge of his name or the sanctification of his Spirit, he by these marks in a manner discloses the judgment which awaits them.


From the Calvinist leaning Christianity Today magazine:

Unconditional election: God chooses to save some people, not because of anything they have done, but according to his sovereign will (Acts 13:48; Rom. 9; Eph. 1:3-6). Some Calvinists have also taught that God elects certain people to damnation, but few advance this view aggressively. This contrasts with other Christian traditions that teach that God desires to save everyone, but only elects those whom he foreknows will respond to his grace.


Here are all the 5 points of Calvinism from the same article from Christianity Today:

Total depravity: We cannot respond to God's offer of salvation, since our will—indeed, our whole being—has been rendered incapable by sin (Rom. 3:9-10; Rom. 8:7-8; 2 Cor. 4:4). Regeneration by the Holy Spirit must precede our response of faith. This contrasts with Christian traditions that say we have sufficient free will to respond to God's offer of salvation or that we can "cooperate" with grace.

Unconditional election: God chooses to save some people, not because of anything they have done, but according to his sovereign will (Acts 13:48; Rom. 9; Eph. 1:3-6). Some Calvinists have also taught that God elects certain people to damnation, but few advance this view aggressively. This contrasts with other Christian traditions that teach that God desires to save everyone, but only elects those whom he foreknows will respond to his grace.

Limited atonement: Christ died for the sins of the church, not for the whole world (John 10:15; Mark 10:45; Rev. 5:9). This contrasts with traditions that teach that Christ died for all, even though all may not appropriate the benefits of his sacrifice.

Irresistible grace: Those God elects cannot resist the Holy Spirit's draw to salvation (John 6:44; 1 Cor. 1:23-24; Acts 16:14). Again, this contrasts with Christian traditions that teach that we are able to reject God's forgiveness—thus, while God may choose to save everyone, not everyone chooses to believe.

Perseverance of the saints: By God's power, believers will endure in faith to the end (John 10:28; Rom. 8:30; Phil. 1:6). Other Christian traditions teach that people can forsake faith and lose salvation.


Labeling people straw men is a cop out.

Reading your response to Heymickey causes me to wonder if there isn't some unintentional misunderstanding between us. Technically I am neither a Calvinist nor Reformed. I do hold dearly to the Doctrines of Grace as they are surely Biblical truths. I am not a follower of John Calvin or any reformer. I do not hold to covenant theology nor new covenant theology. I do believe that the Scriptures are a continuous and progressive revelation of the Eternal Covenant of Grace. You would probably find that I am closer to John Gill than John Calvin. Though even he has stretched the Scriptures in a few, rare instances. I simply call myself a Calvinist because it is much easier than having to go through this whole explanation in every post. Though I consult theologians of various views and take from them what I can I do my utmost to get my theology from the Scriptures themselves. The only man I am concerned with following is the God-man, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Though I am not educated nor very intelligent I do try to think for myself and rarely quote other men.

Now since you state that your argument is against Calvinists would you mind defining what you mean by Calvinist so that I may determine if I fit?

As far as labelling people as straw men, I have labeled no one as a straw man. I have pointed out that their arguments are a contrived caricature of the actual view that is posited in order to easily tear it down. That is the definition, in my own words of course, of a straw man argument.

 

[heymikey80]

According to Calvinism, it's not a lie. I said nothing of what Presbyterian's and those of Reformed theology believe. I was raised Luthern and eventually Reformed and confirmed under the Reformed Church of America (RCA).

I was raised Baptist ... so what? I'm happy your faith in Christ was confirmed by the RCA, but it doesn't say anything about whether you understood their theology well or properly.

Instead you have contradicted Reformed Confessions across the board.

Then the books will be opened, and the dead will be judged according to the things they did in the world, whether good or evil. Indeed, all people will give account of all the idle words they have spoken, which the world regards as only playing games. And then the secrets and hypocrisies of men will be publicly uncovered in the sight of all. Belgic Confession, Art. 37
​

Your citations for your opinion, I'm having problems finding support for your assertion in them. Care to be more specific? Your quotes haven't supported your assertion that the "not elect" are elect without regard to their own actions or nature.

In fact, "not elect" isn't even a category of people in Calvinism.

There are Reformed and Presbyterian churches that do not hold to all of Calvinism. Obviously they are the minority. And I'm not here to debate that either.

So, my quote was towards Calvinsim, from statements made by Calvinists.

And I would tend to place the RCA in that category of relatively liberal. But I would even take issue with you on the idea that Reformed and Presbyterian churches departing from Calvinism are in the minority. In fact the PC(USA) is by far the major American Presbyterian church, and its liberality as to Calvinism is legendary.

The Canons of Dordt actually identified your attack on their position four hundred years ago and said it was a lie.

Hence it clearly appears that those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:​

• that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.

So good luck with that assertion.

It is amazing to me that you would even allege such a thing, granted your expressed knowledge of Reformed Theology.

I've drawn from documents in the 1600's. Such modernists. Shall I move further back than there?

What you've said is in error.

 

[Hagios17]

I believe God wants us to come to Him, but He leaves individual belief up to the individual rather than instill it within her or him.

Or simply Matthan:

We cause God to come to us.

 

[Hagios17]

I'm afraid you missed the point altogether. And the logic of your argument can be found somewhere between silly and non-existent .

Tell me about it...

God did create man, but then He gave man the use of his own will, thus making it "free" will.

Softly putting it: God created the mechanism of man's will, to function, as you assume, independantly -- to act as if it had never been created.

That is "somewhere between silly and non-existent ."

God wanted man to freely decide to follow Him, but God did not want to require man to follow Him.

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [John 1:13]

That is why God wanted Adam to abide by the few laws set down before him, and Adam decided to violate those laws.

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." [1 Corinthians 15:56]

That is why God wanted the Israelites to worship only Him, and the Israelites decided to instead worship idols.

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:6-10]

That is why God wanted the Jews to accept Jesus as the Son of God, but the Jews instead decided to reject Him and keep their status quo.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." [Romans 3:10-18]

That is why God wants us to freely come to Him, and why some do while others do not.

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." [John 6:65-66]

The OT is chucked full of situations where God wanted one thing and man decided on his own to do something else.

"Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." [Hebrews 2:8]

Yes, God did create everything. Therefore, Yes, God did create man. And, as part of that creation of man, God gave man the ability to make decisions for himself.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." [John 1:3]

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." [Colossians 1:15-17]

"Created" or "made" is a little more harsh than "gave".

Those decisions do not affect God in any way, but only affect man and his relationship with God, or his lack of a relationship with God.

And that is because God created the mechanism of the will to function and act in that way, as if it had never been created:scratchh:

Man determines his own destiny with respect to God by freely doing the work of God (and not his own work or works), and God does not interfere because God does not respect persons.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." [John 6:29]

"The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way." [Psalms 37:23]

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:10]

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" [Romans 4:11]

God has ordered (or established -refer hebrew), created (or made - John), ordained (or predestinated) and sealed the way (destiny) of the believer.

God kinda interferes...

As I stated in an earlier post, you can deny the truth, but you cannot change it. Man has free will, and examples that man has used his own free will can be found from Genesis to Revelation.

And when you give some, then I'll be assured that this isn't just your opinion, but rather God's.

Do not equate pre-knowledge (omniscience) of God with pre-ordination by God. Of course God knows everything that will happen, but that in no way requires Him to also cause everything to happen. The Bible is also chucked full of examples of that fact as well.

I wasn't equatting pre-knowledge of God with pre-ordination, I was equatting those with pre-existence.

If God pre-exists everything, then everything, everything other than God, was created by God. (God is the only "possible" "pre-existing" entity that "can" create)

Let me explain with some graphic:

That little white dot in the top right-hand corner signifies everything else besides God, and that quick attemp of a happy old man resembles God on the left. That man has existence before all of our reality had existence. He created our reality and everything in it. The first verse of Genesis 2 concludes that.

A, our reality is finite. B, God, is infinite and eternal. A was created by B. As simple as that. There are no other possible options. And to even suggest the possibilities of A creating facets of itself "independantly" is ludicrous. Sure, it can create facets of itself, but it cannot do it independantly. It is a mechanism of B, and is created to... function a certain way. The only way A could create facets of A, is if A became B. (B is the creator of all time, space and matter - no such thing as free will)

You see, the entire theory of predestination, or preordination by God (as opposed to pre-knowledge without divine decree to cause any actions) is a product of sinful man.

"For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God." 1 Corinthians 11:12

... even so is the choice also by the man?

It really does not come from God, but man in his faulty wisdom states that God meant it to be so even if God did not clearly state it to be so.

To put it simlpy, you don't believe Jesus made everything.

But God does not work that way. By way of example, He clearly wanted the Jews to come to Him, and worship Him only.

More than that, he commanded them. God placed the law of sin and death to bring captivity, confusion, sin and death... so that the law of the Spirit which is in Christ, would "freely" set us free from that law.

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." [Romans 3:24-26]

But they were a stiff-necked people, and did their own thing using their own free will. (How hard do you think it would have been for God to require the Jews to worship Him?) But He didn't, so why didn't He? Because that was not the way He wanted it to be. He wanted them to worship Him of their own free will and accord.

Stiff-neck has to do with the yoke of bondage, not free will. The yoke of bondage dominates prevents freedom. Freedom comes when the yoke of bondage is set loose and we can breathe and are regenerated. This can only come about if the law of the spirit intervenes.

Free will doesn't bring on the reality of conviction that is needed about sin for the sinner. It suppresses and ignores the seriousness of the nature of man. The world does not need the false reality that it is free. It needs to know of its bonds and its captivity:

"To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." [Psalms 14:1-3]

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." [Psalms 51:5]

"To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." [Psalms 53:1-3]

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." [Romans 3:10-18]

The only time you should talk of freedom with the unbeliever is when you reach the cross. He is the rest, and gives freedom. (the law outside of Christ, then Captivity, confusion and death, then freedom and life.)

So He sent Jesus. One of His stated goals was to make the Jews jealous of the Gentiles, which once again requires them to use their own free will.

Actually, it wasn't to stimulate the intellect (i.e will of natural man)

Jesus was sent to destroy the state of the will-heart-mind of the natural man, and replace it with will-heart-mind of the Messiah God. (Switch of government in man)

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." [John 3:3]

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." [Ezekiel 11:19-20]

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." [Ezekiel 36:26]

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." [Jeremiah 31:32-34]

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." [Hebrews 10:16-17]

He wanted all men to come to Him by using their own free will. But He never required them to come to Him, which He certainly could have done had He wanted to. Why didn't He want to? Free will, once again. He wants people to freely love Him, not love Him because He requires or preordains that love from them. He knows that such affection on their parts would not be any affection at all, only His power being demonstrated.

Hey, you can deny the truth, but you cannot change it. And God cannot judge Himself.

Matthan

This conclusion may have a dramatic change of heart if it quickens to the scripture I have given it. Will it receive or reject?

What are some of your knew thoughts and queries then Matthan?

Peace and grace

This went better than my ussual ramblings lol

Im going to pass out and sleep now Zzzzzzzzzz......

-Josh

 

[mlqurgw]

Tell me about it...



Softly putting it: God created the mechanism of man's will, to function, as you assume, independantly -- to act as if it had never been created.

That is "somewhere between silly and non-existent ."



"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [John 1:13]



"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." [1 Corinthians 15:56]



"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:6-10]



"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." [Romans 3:10-18]



"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." [John 6:65-66]



"Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." [Hebrews 2:8]



"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." [John 1:3]

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." [Colossians 1:15-17]

"Created" or "made" is a little more harsh than "gave".



And that is because God created the mechanism of the will to function and act in that way, as if it had never been created:scratchh:



"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." [John 6:29]

"The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way." [Psalms 37:23]

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:10]

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" [Romans 4:11]

God has ordered (or established -refer hebrew), created (or made - John), ordained (or predestinated) and sealed the way (destiny) of the believer.

God kinda interferes...



And when you give some, then I'll be assured that this isn't just your opinion, but rather God's.



I wasn't equatting pre-knowledge of God with pre-ordination, I was equatting those with pre-existence.

If God pre-exists everything, then everything, everything other than God, was created by God. (God is the only "possible" "pre-existing" entity that "can" create)

Let me explain with some graphic:

That little white dot in the top right-hand corner signifies everything else besides God, and that quick attemp of a happy old man resembles God on the left. That man has existence before all of our reality had existence. He created our reality and everything in it. The first verse of Genesis 2 concludes that.

A, our reality is finite. B, God, is infinite and eternal. A was created by B. As simple as that. There are no other possible options. And to even suggest the possibilities of A creating facets of itself "independantly" is ludicrous. Sure, it can create facets of itself, but it cannot do it independantly. It is a mechanism of B, and is created to... function a certain way. The only way A could create facets of A, is if A became B. (B is the creator of all time, space and matter - no such thing as free will)



"For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God." 1 Corinthians 11:12

... even so is the choice also by the man?



To put it simlpy, you don't believe Jesus made everything.



More than that, he commanded them. God placed the law of sin and death to bring captivity, confusion, sin and death... so that the law of the Spirit which is in Christ, would "freely" set us free from that law.

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." [Romans 3:24-26]



Stiff-neck has to do with the yoke of bondage, not free will. The yoke of bondage dominates prevents freedom. Freedom comes when the yoke of bondage is set loose and we can breathe and are regenerated. This can only come about if the law of the spirit intervenes.

Free will doesn't bring on the reality of conviction that is needed about sin for the sinner. It suppresses and ignores the seriousness of the nature of man. The world does not need the false reality that it is free. It needs to know of its bonds and its captivity:

"To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." [Psalms 14:1-3]

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." [Psalms 51:5]

"To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." [Psalms 53:1-3]

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." [Romans 3:10-18]

The only time you should talk of freedom with the unbeliever is when you reach the cross. He is the rest, and gives freedom. (the law outside of Christ, then Captivity, confusion and death, then freedom and life.)



Actually, it wasn't to stimulate the intellect (i.e will of natural man)

Jesus was sent to destroy the state of the will-heart-mind of the natural man, and replace it with will-heart-mind of the Messiah God. (Switch of government in man)

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." [John 3:3]

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." [Ezekiel 11:19-20]

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." [Ezekiel 36:26]

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." [Jeremiah 31:32-34]

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." [Hebrews 10:16-17]



This conclusion may have a dramatic change of heart if it quickens to the scripture I have given it. Will it receive or reject?

What are some of your knew thoughts and queries then Matthan?

Peace and grace

This went better than my ussual ramblings lol

Im going to pass out and sleep now Zzzzzzzzzz......

-Josh

Hagios, a little advice from an old man: don't waste your time with writng very long posts. No one actually reads them. Learn to say what you intend in as few words as possible. It is more likely to stick.