Why There Cannot Be Predestination

[PETE_]

For unbelievers, God's purpose and design is to render the unbeliever without excuse. Men are condemned because they have rejected the Person and work of Jesus Christ and refused God's only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).

Unbelievers can never say that a provision for their salvation was not made and not offered. They can never stand before God and say, "The reason I am not saved is because Christ did not die for me." No, the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died for them and who is the Saviour of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). They are without excuse.

Why do you not reject Christ and others do? What about you is different that you accept Him?

 

[Matthan]

For unbelievers, God's purpose and design is to render the unbeliever without excuse. Men are condemned because they have rejected the Person and work of Jesus Christ and refused God's only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).

Unbelievers can never say that a provision for their salvation was not made and not offered. They can never stand before God and say, "The reason I am not saved is because Christ did not die for me." No, the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died for them and who is the Saviour of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). They are without excuse.

Your post points up a major problem with what might appear to be a minor statement. You stated, "Men are condemned because they have rejected the Person and work of Jesus Christ and refused God's only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).

No, NO, a thousand times NO! Men do not have to "reject" Jesus, although some certainly do. Men need only NOT ACCEPT Jesus, regardless of their reasoning for not accepting Him. There is a world of difference between these two concepts, and free will of the individual is the common denominator of both. And the two verses you cited in no way involve rejection of Christ, by the way (according to my KJV, at least).

If you read John 5:40 you will see free will loud and clear. "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Why do men not come to Jesus? You would possibly say it is because the Holy Ghost prevents them from coming, but that would not be scripturally correct. They do not come to Jesus because they either choose not to come to Him or they do not choose anything at all (you can call it fatal, eternal apathy).

Matthan

 

[Matthan]

miqurgw, you stated,

"The only sinner who can hope in the love of God is the sinner who believes."
That is a true statement. But we would probably differ on the underlying cause for the reason of the sinner's belief. You would possibly state the sinner believes because God pre-ordained him to believe. I would certainly maintain that the sinner believes because he made the (free will) decision to believe after learning about Jesus.

Then, you also stated,

"It is to give the rebellious sinner a false refuge to tell him that God loves him whether he believes or not. Any child or fool knows that if God loves me He will not send me to Hell. If He loves me and sends me to Hell anyway what kind of love is that? What does His love matter if that is the case?"

It is also a true statement, but only up to a point. God clearly offers His unbounded love to all men, because He wants all men to be saved. But He WILL NOT REQUIRE any man to be saved, because that would compromise His holiness AND it would prove Him to be a liar (He is no respecter of (any) men.)

He will love us, but only if we also love (choose to believe in) Him.

Matthan

 

[mlqurgw]

miqurgw, you stated,

"The only sinner who can hope in the love of God is the sinner who believes."
That is a true statement. But we would probably differ on the underlying cause for the reason of the sinner's belief. You would possibly state the sinner believes because God pre-ordained him to believe. I would certainly maintain that the sinner believes because he made the (free will) decision to believe after learning about Jesus.

Then, you also stated,

"It is to give the rebellious sinner a false refuge to tell him that God loves him whether he believes or not. Any child or fool knows that if God loves me He will not send me to Hell. If He loves me and sends me to Hell anyway what kind of love is that? What does His love matter if that is the case?"

It is also a true statement, but only up to a point. God clearly offers His unbounded love to all men, because He wants all men to be saved. But He WILL NOT REQUIRE any man to be saved, because that would compromise His holiness AND it would prove Him to be a liar (He is no respecter of (any) men.)

He will love us, but only if we also love (choose to believe in) Him.

Matthan

I will have to get back to you on this. I have to go into work early today and must get ready. I do want to initially correct you though on your assessment of the underlying cause of the sinner's belief. I do not believe the sinner believes because he was predestined to but because God does something in him that he cannot and will not do for himself.

 

[TwinCrier]

It's not about 'being smart enough' to accept Christ, it is done in faith, believing is a choice.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[eldermike]

It's not about 'being smart enough' to accept Christ, it is done in faith, believing is a choice.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Serving God is salvation? Your example has a problem. God chose these "people" as His before Joshua was born.

What needs to be done in these threads is simply connect mans will and action to God's grace, in that order.

Something like: Man seeks God out of his free will and God responds with eternal life. That's the basic bottom line.

Here is an example of what will not work:
John 3:16 begins with "For God"...........game over.

We need some scripture that begins with.
"For man"........................

A scripture that says; man picks Jesus and then Jesus suddenly says: I know you now, you have come out of darkness and into the light, good job, I now give you your free gift, I have no other choice.

The basic problem is you can't get works out of free will salvation, it's in there to stay.

man works - God judges works - man is saved.
smart men work smarter, smart men are saved, God has no choice but to send the dumb ones to hell even though He wants them saved.

Other basic problem: You can't remove intellect from free will.
Will comes from the mind, unless man has a free will heart and I can't find that in scripture either.

We will never settle this issue.

 

[DMagoh]

"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" Acts 7:51

This verse indicates that the Holy Spirit is NOT irresistable as Calvinists claim. The Holy Spirit works to convict all men of their sinful condition. However, some always resist the Holy Spirit!

 

[mlqurgw]

miqurgw, you stated,

"The only sinner who can hope in the love of God is the sinner who believes."
That is a true statement. But we would probably differ on the underlying cause for the reason of the sinner's belief. You would possibly state the sinner believes because God pre-ordained him to believe. I would certainly maintain that the sinner believes because he made the (free will) decision to believe after learning about Jesus.

I didn't have to go in early after all. I have already dealt with what you think my position is and shown it to be mistaken. Still, I would like to clarify further. I do believe that man willingly chooses Christ. The Scriptures are abundantly clear on that point. I just don't believe he does so apart from God giving him a new nature that is willing. A man believes as a result of being born from above not the other way around. The Scriptures are also abundantly clear that man will not come to Christ in faith in his natural state. We are not only dead in sin by nature but also self-righteous by nature. The flesh actually thinks it is good. The natural man sees no need of Christ to be his Savior. Just a few references to support this:Job 14:4, Eccles. 9:3, Jer. 13:23, 17:9, Mk. 7:21-23, John 3:3-8, 5:21, Rom. 3: 9-19,1Cor. 2:14, Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13.

Then, you also stated,

"It is to give the rebellious sinner a false refuge to tell him that God loves him whether he believes or not. Any child or fool knows that if God loves me He will not send me to Hell. If He loves me and sends me to Hell anyway what kind of love is that? What does His love matter if that is the case?"

It is also a true statement, but only up to a point. God clearly offers His unbounded love to all men, because He wants all men to be saved.

On this we obviously disagree. The Scripture clearly declare that God gets what He wants. Isa. 14:24,27, 46:9-11, Psa. 115:3, 65:4.

But He WILL NOT REQUIRE any man to be saved, because that would compromise His holiness AND it would prove Him to be a liar (He is no respecter of (any) men.)

In almost every instance the statement that He is no respecter of persons in its context clearly means station or status. In those it isn't absolutely clear it can be understood in that vein without doing harm to the meaning of the passage. Those instances are very few though.
He requires all men to repent and to be perfect.

He will love us, but only if we also love (choose to believe in) Him.

Matthan

So His love is conditional? That makes His love no different than a man's.

 

[mlqurgw]

"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" Acts 7:51

This verse indicates that the Holy Spirit is NOT irresistable as Calvinists claim. The Holy Spirit works to convict all men of their sinful condition. However, some always resist the Holy Spirit!

The context of that passage makes it clear that Stephen was referring to the Scriptures, the Law and the prophets. The Spirit had given them ample revelation in the Old Testament Scriptures. Your application of the passage and assertion that the Spirit can be resisted doesn't quite add up to the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole nor even the word of Christ Jesus the Lord in John 3:8. I would suggest that you find out what Jesus meant in John 16:8-11. It isn't what many seem to think.

 

[TwinCrier]

Serving God is salvation? Your example has a problem. God chose these "people" as His before Joshua was born.

What needs to be done in these threads is simply connect mans will and action to God's grace, in that order.

Something like: Man seeks God out of his free will and God responds with eternal life. That's the basic bottom line.

Here is an example of what will not work:
John 3:16 begins with "For God"...........game over.

We need some scripture that begins with.
"For man"........................

A scripture that says; man picks Jesus and then Jesus suddenly says: I know you now, you have come out of darkness and into the light, good job, I now give you your free gift, I have no other choice.

The basic problem is you can't get works out of free will salvation, it's in there to stay.

man works - God judges works - man is saved.
smart men work smarter, smart men are saved, God has no choice but to send the dumb ones to hell even though He wants them saved.

Other basic problem: You can't remove intellect from free will.
Will comes from the mind, unless man has a free will heart and I can't find that in scripture either.

We will never settle this issue.

No, serving God is not salvation. The problem I see with most Calvinists is they seem to think faith is a work. Most people try to use "God made me that way" was an excuse for their sin, Calvinists use it as their excuse for salvation.

 

[Matthan]

Serving God is salvation? Your example has a problem. God chose these "people" as His before Joshua was born.

What needs to be done in these threads is simply connect mans will and action to God's grace, in that order.

Something like: Man seeks God out of his free will and God responds with eternal life. That's the basic bottom line.

Here is an example of what will not work:
John 3:16 begins with "For God"...........game over.

We need some scripture that begins with.
"For man"........................

A scripture that says; man picks Jesus and then Jesus suddenly says: I know you now, you have come out of darkness and into the light, good job, I now give you your free gift, I have no other choice.

The basic problem is you can't get works out of free will salvation, it's in there to stay.

man works - God judges works - man is saved.
smart men work smarter, smart men are saved, God has no choice but to send the dumb ones to hell even though He wants them saved.

Other basic problem: You can't remove intellect from free will.
Will comes from the mind, unless man has a free will heart and I can't find that in scripture either.

We will never settle this issue.

Jesus addressed this "work" issue in John 6:29 where He clearly tells us our "work" of believing is not our work at all, but is instead the work of God. He clearly tells us we must do the work of God, which is to believe in Him who God has sent. Not our work, but God's.

Matthan

 

[Matthan]

Serving God is salvation? Your example has a problem. God chose these "people" as His before Joshua was born.

What needs to be done in these threads is simply connect mans will and action to God's grace, in that order.

Something like: Man seeks God out of his free will and God responds with eternal life. That's the basic bottom line.

Here is an example of what will not work:
John 3:16 begins with "For God"...........game over.

We need some scripture that begins with.
"For man"........................

A scripture that says; man picks Jesus and then Jesus suddenly says: I know you now, you have come out of darkness and into the light, good job, I now give you your free gift, I have no other choice.

The basic problem is you can't get works out of free will salvation, it's in there to stay.

man works - God judges works - man is saved.
smart men work smarter, smart men are saved, God has no choice but to send the dumb ones to hell even though He wants them saved.

Other basic problem: You can't remove intellect from free will.
Will comes from the mind, unless man has a free will heart and I can't find that in scripture either.

We will never settle this issue.

Oh, and I like your effort with John 3:16, but I just hate forfeiting a game in the first quarter. So let's see what happens when the game goes all the way to the end.

"For God so loved the world, [He truly loves all of His Creation, every bit of it, and especially the people He created. But He also tells us He loves the whole world, and not just that portion that calvinists claim are predestined by Him. If He loved all people, why does He only want to save some of them? Or, could Scripture actually be correct when it tells us He want all men to be saved? Hummm...] that he gave his only begotten Son, [gave us the free gift of His perfect Son, the perfect propitious sacrifice. But why would He need to be propitious if He had already ordained everything? Hummm...] that whosoever believeth in him ["whosoever" does mean everyone, it is an all-inclusive word without restriction or qualification. check it out in the Greek. "believeth", or believes, is the action word. Whosoever believes is the entire object, including both "who" and "what". But there is absolutely no hint of required belief, or predestined belief, or anything else but simple belief, which is strictly a function of man's free will activities. Man can choose to believe, or he can choose not to believe, but the choice is his to make] should not perish, but have everlasting life." [Ah, the ultimate end - life or death. Man can choose to believe and he will have everlasting life, or he can choose not to believe, and he will perish.]

Now the game is over = free will of man wins hands down.

Matthan

 

[Matthan]

Gee, I left here and went to the thread on calvinist quotes by MercyBurst, and got slapped in the face by all the info contained in his first example. It reads:
"
Yes, that's right go ahead and use your John 3:16 over and over again but let me tell you somethin, If God really loved the whole wide world, every human being in it, then why isn't everyone saved?

Why would He send people to hell for whom He loved?...That's not very loving!"

If God really loved the whole wide world, then why isn't everybody in it going to be saved? Could it be that, while He loves them, they did not love Him? And, since He must always remain true to His own holiness, He is prevented by that holiness from showing any favors to anyone who did not agree to join His New Covenant, which is for men to choose to love Jesus as the Christ of God in order for Him to be able to be propitious towards those sinners and yet still remain true to His own holiness. Just as the Hebrews failed miserably to uphold their end of the Old Covenant, some men will choose not to join the New Covenant. But others will choose to join, and God can forgive them of all their sins. He can forgive their sins, but not the sins of non-believers, because of their belief in Jesus. They made their own free will choice to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, which is the work of God. And, because they freely chose to do the work of God, that permits God to be propitious towards them.


Matthan

 

[mlqurgw]

Gee, I left here and went to the thread on calvinist quotes by MercyBurst, and got slapped in the face by all the info contained in his first example. It reads:
"
Yes, that's right go ahead and use your John 3:16 over and over again but let me tell you somethin, If God really loved the whole wide world, every human being in it, then why isn't everyone saved?

Why would He send people to hell for whom He loved?...That's not very loving!"

If God really loved the whole wide world, then why isn't everybody in it going to be saved? Could it be that, while He loves them, they did not love Him? And, since He must always remain true to His own holiness, He is prevented by that holiness from showing any favors to anyone who did not agree to join His New Covenant, which is for men to choose to love Jesus as the Christ of God in order for Him to be able to be propitious towards those sinners and yet still remain true to His own holiness. Just as the Hebrews failed miserably to uphold their end of the Old Covenant, some men will choose not to join the New Covenant. But others will choose to join, and God can forgive them of all their sins. He can forgive their sins, but not the sins of non-believers, because of their belief in Jesus. They made their own free will choice to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, which is the work of God. And, because they freely chose to do the work of God, that permits God to be propitious towards them.


Matthan

What a sad and frustrated God you describe. I do not say that to be unkind but in all honesty. I am moved to pity more than I am to worship.

 

[DMagoh]

Here's a question for the Calvinist - no matter how many verses I have posted that have said it in black and white, the Calvinists in this thread keep maintaining that "whole world" doesnt really mean whole world; "whosoever" doesnt really mean whosoever; that "all men" doesnt really mean all men; that "for all" doesnt really mean for all; and that "every man" doesnt really mean every man.

So, do you think God was just trying to fool people? Do you think He put so many scriptures in the Bible that say "every man" and "the whole world" and "all men" just to trick people? If He really was just going to pick and choose some people to save, why would there be so many verses that seem to say otherwise - and the only people that know they dont REALLY say that are intellectually superior people?

Was God just wanting to confuse us? I mean, if He really was just going to pick and choose elect people to save, you have to admit He could have done a better job of making it clear instead of having to have some intellectuals explain it to everybody. He should have left out all those references to "all men" and "the whole world" and "not wanting ANY to perish." Then it would have been crystal clear and we wouldnt need all those verses explained away.

So what do you think?

 

[mlqurgw]

Here's a question for the Calvinist - no matter how many verses I have posted that have said it in black and white, the Calvinists in this thread keep maintaining that "whole world" doesnt really mean whole world; "whosoever" doesnt really mean whosoever; that "all men" doesnt really mean all men; that "for all" doesnt really mean for all; and that "every man" doesnt really mean every man.

So, do you think God was just trying to fool people? Do you think He put so many scriptures in the Bible that say "every man" and "the whole world" and "all men" just to trick people? If He really was just going to pick and choose some people to save, why would there be so many verses that seem to say otherwise - and the only people that know they dont REALLY say that are intellectually superior people?

Was God just wanting to confuse us? I mean, if He really was just going to pick and choose elect people to save, you have to admit He could have done a better job of making it clear instead of having to have some intellectuals explain it to everybody. He should have left out all those references to "all men" and "the whole world" and "not wanting ANY to perish." Then it would have been crystal clear and we wouldnt need all those verses explained away.

So what do you think?

As I have already explained to you the context in each case determines the meaning. As far as whosoever will goes I wholeheartedly believe that. I just don't believe in whosoever wont.
It isn't a matter of intellectualism it is a matter of dealing honestly with the Scriptures. The word "all" rarely means everyone without exception in any language. The context determines the scope and meaning. The word world is the same. As far as the phrase "all men" you will find that it is normally in italics. That is because it was not in the original text and was added by the translators.
God does not confuse us we confuse ourselves by not paying proper attention to simple rules of grammar and usage. The reason that there are so many heresies about is because man refuses to apply due diligence in the study of Scripture and divides the Word of truth into separate sentences instead of a whole Book. Most come to the Scriptures with their minds disengaged and proceed to read what they want to hear.

 

[VCViking]

Your post points up a major problem with what might appear to be a minor statement. You stated, "Men are condemned because they have rejected the Person and work of Jesus Christ and refused God's only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).

No, NO, a thousand times NO! Men do not have to "reject" Jesus, although some certainly do. Men need only NOT ACCEPT Jesus, regardless of their reasoning for not accepting Him. There is a world of difference between these two concepts, and free will of the individual is the common denominator of both.

If they do not accept Him then they HAVE rejected him.

 

[DMagoh]

The word "all" rarely means everyone without exception in any language. The context determines the scope and meaning. The word world is the same. As far as the phrase "all men" you will find that it is normally in italics. That is because it was not in the original text and was added by the translators.
God does not confuse us we confuse ourselves by not paying proper attention to simple rules of grammar and usage. The reason that there are so many heresies about is because man refuses to apply due diligence in the study of Scripture and divides the Word of truth into separate sentences instead of a whole Book. Most come to the Scriptures with their minds disengaged and proceed to read what they want to hear.

Please dont misinterpret this next comment because i respect and love you as another brother in Christ. I am about to make a comparison, but not you to another person, rather your arguments compared to another person's arguments. Confused? Let me explain.

I was debating a practicing homosexual who thought homosexuality was not a sin. When I presented him the numerous passages in the Bible that condemned homosexual behaviour, he always had a way to explain them away. He always had an answer for every verse. I was reading them out of context. The word really meant this, not that. Supposedly, one verse was really condemning homsexual prostitutes, another was really condemning homosexual behavior in pagan rituals, another was really condemning homosexual rape, another was only talking about cleanliness. The verses werent really talking about homsexual behavior in a loving monogamous relationship.

Now, dont confuse what I am saying - I am not comparing Calvinists to homosexuals! God forbid! I am comparing the line of reasoning that this homosexual was using with the same line of reasoning you are using on these scriptures.... Instead of just reading the words in plain balck and white, you say I am reading verses out of context, this word really means this, "all men" doesnt really mean "all men", the "whole world" doesnt really mean "whole world", etc.

All I'm saying is, God had the power to make it crystal clear if Jesus only died for an elect group. But God allowed the words "all men" and "whole world" and "every man" to be in the Bible for a reason.

 

[VCViking]

"Men are condemned because they have rejected the Person and work of Jesus Christ and refused God's only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).

And the two verses you cited in no way involve rejection of Christ, by the way (according to my KJV, at least).
Matthan

If they do not accept Him then they HAVE rejected him.


John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[DMagoh]

mlqurgw, I noticed that your "signature" states:

"If you wish for someone to find Christ get them to where He has promised to be. Where two or three are gathered in his name."


That's not really true if you are a Calvinist is it? It doesnt matter if a non-believer is where two or three are gathered in His name or not - if he isnt one of the special elect, he could be in a packed church every Sunday and he's going to be grilled, basted, smoked,and roasted come Jugement Day right?