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Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

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7xlightray

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Daniel 3
25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form
of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

What a powerful messianic vision, four men, the fourth man was the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
The passage itself tells us it was an angel...

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him​

We also have...

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

Angels are also called sons of God.
 
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7xlightray

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Lightray, I noticed this man commands the angels, this man is rightfully the Lord of Hosts (angels). Only YHWH
commands the angels.
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,​

There is hierarchy

Daniel 10:13 ...but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me...​

Also...

Daniel 10:21 ...and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.​

Michael is in charge of God's angels, and one of the chief princes, and prince of Daniel, and Israel.
 
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7xlightray

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Like Daniel, I will not bow to any image or even a two legged creature.
Daniel 2:46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.
47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.​

Daniel did not have a problem with others worshiping him, when done properly. They did not worship Daniel as God, but recognized Daniel's God.
 
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7xlightray

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We differ on how we interpret the revelation of the Christ in Zechariah. Your seeing Zechariah and I am seeing the
Christ. The scripture is alll about the Christ.
Zechariah 11:12 And I said [Zechariah speaking here, right?] unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.​

Zechariah is the one speaking, and he is the one that said, “they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.”
They priced Zechariah at thirty pieces of silver, correct?

13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.​

Who did they price at thirty pieces of silver, again? They priced Zechariah at thirty pieces of silver.

And it is Zechariah that is a type of Christ in this verse, for he was the one that was priced at at thirty pieces of silver.
 
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Der Alte

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The passage itself tells us it was an angel...

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him.
Were the words of a pagan king inspired by God or was he just expressing what he thought?

We also have...

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Angels are also called sons of God
.

In Job the stars are figuratively called sons of god. Job 38:4-10 is Jewish poetry where something is said in two different ways. In vss. 5-6, 8-10 all of the referents are inanimate things.
 
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7xlightray

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Were the words of a pagan king inspired by God or was he just expressing what he thought?
That they were written in scripture makes them inspired by God. Otherwise, God could have had the king's words not recorded.

If he could have a donkey speak the words of God, or the unrighteous Balaam 2 Peter 2:15; Jude 1:11 speak the words of God, then surely He could have a pagan king, who recognize there was not another God like the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, speak the words of God. I don't see any reason why this should give you any trouble, if you believe an immortal God can die.


In Job the stars are figuratively called sons of god. Job 38:4-10 is Jewish poetry where something is said in two different ways. In vss. 5-6, 8-10 all of the referents are inanimate things.
So, then you agree Jesus is not the only one called the son of God? Which was the reason of my statements, to show Jesus was not the only one called the son of God.
 
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Der Alte

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That they were written in scripture makes them inspired by God. Otherwise, God could have had the king's words not recorded.

When king Nebuchadnezzar commanded the Babylonians to bow down and worship the image he had made was that also inspired by God? When the Jews said that Jesus had a devil was that inspired by God?

If he could have a donkey speak the words of God, or the unrighteous Balaam 2 Peter 2:15; Jude 1:11 speak the words of God, then surely He could have a pagan king, who recognize there was not another God like the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, speak the words of God. I don't see any reason why this should give you any trouble, if you believe an immortal God can die.

When God inspires the words they are the words of God but not everything which is recorded in scripture as being spoken by non-believers are the words of God.

So, then you agree Jesus is not the only one called the son of God? Which was the reason of my statements, to show Jesus was not the only one called the son of God.

I made no such agreement, there is only one monogenes son of God.
 
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klutedavid

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We have a bit of a problem with your interpetation...

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

Did Jesus come to himself? That would mean there are two Jesus'. Maybe Jesus is not the only one with white hair, and having a white garment as white as snow. We also know, Jesus sat on the Father's throne Revelation 3:21.
Hello Lightray.

Thanks for your reply.
We have a bit of a problem with your interpetation...
Correct Lightray, not a bit of a problem, I have a major problem with this passage.

Daniel 7
12 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came
to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory,
and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed?

So Lightray, are you saying that the ancient of days is the Father and is visible? and has a human appearance,
i.e., a head and hair?

Jesus is described as having white hair and a human form in Revelations 1.

Micah 5:2
But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for
Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.

Jesus was from eternity, or if you like, His going forth was from ancient days.
 
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klutedavid

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The passage itself tells us it was an angel...

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him​

We also have...

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

Angels are also called sons of God.
Hello Lightray.

Our English translations use the Hebrew word for messenger, and translate that Hebrew word as 'angel'.

So the phrase 'angel of YHWH' in the scripture is more correctly translated as, 'messenger of YHWH'.
This can also be understood as, 'the one sent from YHWH'. A messenger is the one sent to deliver.

Messengers (angels) are sent by YHWH, Jesus is also sent to mankind.

There are messengers that are not divine entities and there is one disguised messenger who is actually divine.

The 'messenger of YHWH', has always been a problem for generations of exegetes and interpreters, the phrase
is theologically troublesome, due to its obscure and perplexing identity.

Messengers are in charge of messengers, men are also in charge of men.

The messenger of YHWH was special, the ground was holy.
 
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klutedavid

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Zechariah 11:12 And I said [Zechariah speaking here, right?] unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.​

Zechariah is the one speaking, and he is the one that said, “they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.”
They priced Zechariah at thirty pieces of silver, correct?

13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.​

Who did they price at thirty pieces of silver, again? They priced Zechariah at thirty pieces of silver.

And it is Zechariah that is a type of Christ in this verse, for he was the one that was priced at at thirty pieces of silver.
Hello Lightray.

You have not answered the following line in Zechariah.

10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.

Did Zechariah break the covenant with Israel?
 
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7xlightray

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When king Nebuchadnezzar commanded the Babylonians to bow down and worship the image he had made was that also inspired by God? When the Jews said that Jesus had a devil was that inspired by God?
What does this have to do with what I said? I have no idea whether God inspired Nebuchadnezzar to say it was an angel, I was not there. I didn't say whether God actually inspired, or not, only that He could. This is what I said...

If he could have a donkey speak the words of God, or the unrighteous Balaam 2 Peter 2:15; Jude 1:11 speak the words of God, then surely He could have a pagan king, who recognize there was not another God like the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, speak the words of God.”

The point is, it is recorded in scripture that it was an angel, and nothing in scripture stating he was in error, for only God could make this known. And angels are also called sons of God.

Not only that, but how does this compare with Balaam, the donkey, or the King saying it was an angel? I don't see the connection, it's not like I was saying God inspires all things. I did say He does inspire what is written in His word, though. I could throw the same thing back at you, but what would this solve... Did God inspire leaving the false gods in the land of Israel to test them, for He said He would? What about John 13:27, or Matt. 26:31,33-34, was this inspired by God, for surely God sent His son for this very purpose?

When God inspires the words they are the words of God but not everything which is recorded in scripture as being spoken by non-believers are the words of God.
Yes, of course.

I made no such agreement, there is only one monogenes son of God.
I didn't say anything about whether Jesus is the only monogenes son of God. We were referring to the simple term “son of God.” So then, what are you saying “son of God” does not refer to anyone else but Jesus? Lets keep it in context of what I was speaking, please.
 
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Der Alte

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What does this have to do with what I said? I have no idea whether God inspired Nebuchadnezzar to say it was an angel, I was not there. I didn't say whether God actually inspired, or not, only that He could. This is what I said...

If he could have a donkey speak the words of God, or the unrighteous Balaam 2 Peter 2:15; Jude 1:11 speak the words of God, then surely He could have a pagan king, who recognize there was not another God like the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, speak the words of God.”

The point is, it is recorded in scripture that it was an angel, and nothing in scripture stating he was in error, for only God could make this known. And angels are also called sons of God.

Your conclusion is severely flawed. A pagan king would not have known what, if anything, other than God was called sons of God in the OT. If you are referring to Job 38:7 you are wrong about that too.

Not only that, but how does this compare with Balaam, the donkey, or the King saying it was an angel? I don't see the connection, it's not like I was saying God inspires all things. I did say He does inspire what is written in His word, though. I could throw the same thing back at you, but what would this solve... Did God inspire leaving the false gods in the land of Israel to test them, for He said He would? What about John 13:27, or Matt. 26:31,33-34, was this inspired by God, for surely God sent His son for this very purpose?

It is clear that only God could have made the donkey speak, therefore whatever the donkey said would have been inspired by God. There is no scriptural evidence that anything said by king Nebuchadnezzar was inspired by God, therefore no doctrine should be based on his words.

I didn't say anything about whether Jesus is the only monogenes son of God. We were referring to the simple term “son of God.” So then, what are you saying “son of God” does not refer to anyone else but Jesus? Lets keep it in context of what I was speaking, please.

As long as you acknowledge that something being called a "son of god" does not mean that person/thing is actually a son of God.
 
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ripple the car

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Respectfully... No where in the Scriptures does it describe the Messiah being two persons. Or into the detail given in later creeds, including Nicea.


Scriptures just say that there is One God, the Father, who in the former times spoke to the Jews by Moses and the Prophets, and who in the last days has spoken to us by His Son. That is all the Scriptures say. No where

does Christ command us to minutely, painstakingly disect His nature. Just to call Him Master, and follow Him. And to know that the Father, the God who made all things by His Son, has given Him all authority in heaven and earth. It's just that simple.
 
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ripple the car

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It breaks my heart a bit to see how complicated, cruel, bloody, empirical, and overly academic Christianity became. From believing on the One God who made all things and believing on His Son and keeping His words and waiting for His return to councils, wars, synods, excommunications, pogroms, inquisitions, "heretic" burning, "heretic" drowning, anti-Semetic violence and countless other proud evils... Why? Why did we depart from what the Jewish Believers handed down to us? What need did we have to say of God and of His Messiah what neither said about themselves? Brothers, please....
 
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ripple the car

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Did not Christianity become more bloody, oppressive, vain, boastful, power-mad and worldly the more complicated her doctrines became? Men cared more about uselessly arguing about the precise invisible nature of Messiah than they did about loving one another for His sake. And humbly teaching others to do the same. Can we not just go back to the basics? That is how I see peace, shalom, coming to individual hearts.
 
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ripple the car

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Thank you, Sir. But when Paul the Apostle, a brilliant, devout, educated Pharisee-turned-Nazarene Jew witnessed to the men of Athens, imo he didn't make things terribly complicated or metaphysical. Just simply and clearly described the Invisible God who had made them and who had raised a Man from the dead as a testimony to the nations. That's about it.
You need to have a clear picture of God and if you are going to know whom you are walking with, Gracia. The reason why Hellenic metaphysics were brought into the church is that the Bible does not at all provide a unified account of God. It's not enough just to say you believe in God, you need to be more specific, say what kind of God you believe in. So , yes, you need to have a clear idea of what the Trinity is claiming. Is it claiming, for example, that God is a cosmic society of three separate, unique personalities? Does the one God simply mean they all are working together in harmony? That is what the social theory says. Ok, but how then is this anything other than polytheism? See what I mean? No metaphysical considerations, no clarity. Of course, the Apostles may have had a simpler faith, though I doubt it was as simple as you think. The early church, for example, was caught in a major conflict over the Trinity, specifically over the Deity of Christ. Is the divine that rules in heaven identical with the divine that makes its presence felt on earth? If you think the Bible provides simple answers, forget it. Both the Trinitarians and the anti-Trinitarians used Scripture to back their positions. If I had a nickel every time I heard some anti-intellectual Christian say they have no need of metaphysics, they know Christ and that's enough and then they turn right around and describe the God of the creeds, confessions, and church fathers, I'd be a rich man. Tine and again I hear all this nonsense about how one has some "personal" relationship with a "personal God', doesn't need any metaphysics, etc. However, when they come down to describing this "personal God," the latter is anything but a person. Rather, they affirm the God of classical theism, the God of the church fathers, creeds and confessions. That isn't a very personal image of God at all, as the classical model claims that God is void of body, parts, passions, compassion, wholly immutable. So, yes, metaphysical considerations are important to take into account, as they are constantly in play.
 
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klutedavid

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Scriptures just say that there is One God, the Father, who in the former times spoke to the Jews by Moses and the Prophets, and who in the last days has spoken to us by His Son. That is all the Scriptures say. No where

does Christ command us to minutely, painstakingly disect His nature. Just to call Him Master, and follow Him. And to know that the Father, the God who made all things by His Son, has given Him all authority in heaven and earth. It's just that simple.
Hello Gracia.

You stated the following.

Scriptures just say that there is One God, the Father, who in the former times spoke to the Jews by Moses and the Prophets
This is not correct Gracia.

Jesus said, the Father has not been heard, seen, or known by humanity. If the Father has not been heard
by humanity, then the Father was not speaking to humanity.

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, the Father handed all things over to His only Son Jesus.

Everything including the Old Testament prophets and patriarchs, were subjected to the Son.

Christ is over and through all creation, and all creation exists only for the Son.
 
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7xlightray

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Hello Lightray.

Thanks for your reply.

Correct Lightray, not a bit of a problem, I have a major problem with this passage.

Daniel 7
12 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came
to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory,
and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed?

So Lightray, are you saying that the ancient of days is the Father and is visible? and has a human appearance,
i.e., a head and hair?

Jesus is described as having white hair and a human form in Revelations 1.
Yes it is good chatting with you.

Yes the ancient of days is the Father, I think that is very clear in that passage.

As far as I know the scriptures do not say no one can see God, but I know it does say no “man” can see God, at least in this mortal fallen flesh, for Exodus 33:20 says no man can see His face and live. In our immortal bodies, we cannot die anymore, so it could be possible to see God and not die. Whether we are granted to, or able to literally, I'm not fully sure, for there are some verses that seem to suggest we will, but I can't say if this is literal, or not. Even Exodus 33:20 alone, seems to suggest we will see Him literally.

Micah 5:2
But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for
Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.

Jesus was from eternity, or if you like, His going forth was from ancient days.
Yes he is, but which ancient days?

Before I even get into that, lets get this out of the way, which is what you are trying to prove with this passage. It says in verse 4 of Jesus that the LORD God is his God...

4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.​

Notice what it is talking about here in the first three verses, even verse 1 should be a clue, that Israel will be laid siege. Then it goes on to say...

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.​

Verse 1 to verse 3 must be read together to get the understanding of what is meant by “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting,” keeping it all in context. Reading chapter 4 with 5 really helps to get a perspective of chapter 5 as well.

It's says he is to be ruler in Israel, this has not taken place yet. This is why Jesus knew he would be going on a long journey. Jesus is from Bethlehem, was put to death, but will return to rule in Israel after a long time, who's goings forth have been of old, from when he fist walk in Israel, and he will return after a long time.
 
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7xlightray

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Hello Lightray.

Our English translations use the Hebrew word for messenger, and translate that Hebrew word as 'angel'.

So the phrase 'angel of YHWH' in the scripture is more correctly translated as, 'messenger of YHWH'.
This can also be understood as, 'the one sent from YHWH'. A messenger is the one sent to deliver.

Messengers (angels) are sent by YHWH, Jesus is also sent to mankind.

There are messengers that are not divine entities and there is one disguised messenger who is actually divine.

The 'messenger of YHWH', has always been a problem for generations of exegetes and interpreters, the phrase
is theologically troublesome, due to its obscure and perplexing identity.

Messengers are in charge of messengers, men are also in charge of men.

The messenger of YHWH was special, the ground was holy.
Yes I know and understand the meaning and use of angel/messenger.
 
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7xlightray

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Hello Lightray.

You have not answered the following line in Zechariah.

10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.

Did Zechariah break the covenant with Israel?
Which covenant did Christ come to make with them, the Old, or the New? Who rejected the New? Who was cut off, yet, who will be brought back in?
 
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