Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

[7xlightray]

Are you suggesting God spent three years deluding the Apostles or that God works against Himself?

What do you mean deluding? The gospel went out to the whole world. Colossians 1:23; Romans 1:8; 10:17-19.

It was prophesied in scripture. Have you not heard what I have said, or understood the scriptures I gave? John also says, there is the anti-christ coming, which “anti” has the meaning in scripture of “in place of, or stand in place of,” as in Matthew 20:28.

1 John 2:18(KJV) Little children, it is the last time [G5610 - hōra - hour]: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now [at this time, the present]are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time [G5610 - hōra – hour (it is the last hour now and has been since John wrote this letter)].​

John does not say the last hour is coming, but it is the last hour. The “hour - G5610 - hōra” it can mean a certain point in time, that something will take place, or start to take place, but could go on for a long time, or even indefinitely. For some examples of how John uses the word...

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour (G5610 - hōra - hour) cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time (G5610 - hōra - hour) cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

As we see from those verses “hour” can mean a very long time, even indefinitely.

John says it is the last hour, this Antichrist is expected to show up any time now. John does not say the last hour is coming, but it is the last hour... there's something to think about.

How is this a failure on God's part. If there is a failure, the failure is, your not aware of this. The falling away, the last hour, anti-christ was about to come. When the tree got really big the birds of the air lodge in it branches and Revelation 18:2; Jeremiah 5:26-31; Jeremiah 5:19, which is false doctrine, hid three parts meal, till the whole was leaven, again false doctrine. Luke 13:23-24 say a large number will try to enter, but will not be able. Judges 2 prophesy of the church. The whole world will worship the beast, he is not talking about atheists, he is talking about those that claim to be His.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.​

Two thousand years ago, John said it is the last hour. Faith!

Do you know what this is “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” It is not some Greek, or Roman formula, as some try to say, for where in scripture does it states we should use such a formula? Nowhere!

God also test us...

Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.​

There is much more, but if you can't see this, then not much point.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What do you mean deluding? The gospel went out to the whole world. Colossians 1:23; Romans 1:8; 10:17-19.

It was prophesied in scripture. Have you not heard what I have said, or understood the scriptures I gave? John also says, there is the anti-christ coming, which “anti” has the meaning in scripture of “in place of, or stand in place of,” as in Matthew 20:28.

1 John 2:18(KJV) Little children, it is the last time [G5610 - hōra - hour]: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now [at this time, the present]are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time [G5610 - hōra – hour (it is the last hour now and has been since John wrote this letter)].​

John does not say the last hour is coming, but it is the last hour. The “hour - G5610 - hōra” it can mean a certain point in time, that something will take place, or start to take place, but could go on for a long time, or even indefinitely. For some examples of how John uses the word...

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour (G5610 - hōra - hour) cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time (G5610 - hōra - hour) cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

As we see from those verses “hour” can mean a very long time, even indefinitely.

John says it is the last hour, this Antichrist is expected to show up any time now. John does not say the last hour is coming, but it is the last hour... there's something to think about.

How is this a failure on God's part. If there is a failure, the failure is, your not aware of this. The falling away, the last hour, anti-christ was about to come. When the tree got really big the birds of the air lodge in it branches and Revelation 18:2; Jeremiah 5:26-31; Jeremiah 5:19, which is false doctrine, hid three parts meal, till the whole was leaven, again false doctrine. Luke 13:23-24 say a large number will try to enter, but will not be able. Judges 2 prophesy of the church. The whole world will worship the beast, he is not talking about atheists, he is talking about those that claim to be His.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.​

Two thousand years ago, John said it is the last hour. Faith!

Do you know what this is “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” It is not some Greek, or Roman formula, as some try to say, for where in scripture does it states we should use such a formula? Nowhere!

God also test us...

Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.​

There is much more, but if you can't see this, then not much point.

So if He did not delude the Apostles and they went out and taught, the Bible shows them choosing men to replace themselves regionally to continue teaching - then (to respond properly to my previous question) your point must be that after doing that God decided to work against Himself by deluding people. Is that correct?

 

[7xlightray]

So if He did not delude the Apostles and they went out and taught, the Bible shows them choosing men to replace themselves regionally to continue teaching - then (to respond properly to my previous question) your point must be that after doing that God decided to work against Himself by deluding people. Is that correct?

Acts 20:28-31; 2 Timothy 1:15.

You don't understand this, are you trying to blaming God for this, I'm sure your not...

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

Or, why did God hide the truth from the Jewish nation, was it because He was mean, or because they would not come to the truth? It was because what little light they were given, they would not come to.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Acts 20:28-31; 2 Timothy 1:15.

You don't understand this, are you trying to blaming God for this, I'm sure your not...

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

Or, why did God hide the truth from the Jewish nation, was it because He was mean, or because they would not come to the truth? It was because what little light they were given, they would not come to.

Your claim was God deluded people. Am still trying to determine what you meant by that. My claim is God came and taught some men for three years and then told them to go and teach - giving them a teaching authority (whatever they bind on earth will be bound in Heaven) and then Scripture shows them putting the framework in place to continue that teaching process. God even said that His Kingdom He established on earth (which one would think includes those teachings) would never fall. Which means those teachings and that same Authority exist today. Your response was yeah but then God deluded people.

So I asked for clarification on that remark and you replied the Apostles were not deluded. The other part of that questions was then verifying that you think God works against Himself by deluding people - which you have yet to answer.

 

[7xlightray]

Your claim was God deluded people. Am still trying to determine what you meant by that. My claim is God came and taught some men for three years and then told them to go and teach - giving them a teaching authority (whatever they bind on earth will be bound in Heaven) and then Scripture shows them putting the framework in place to continue that teaching process. God even said that His Kingdom He established on earth (which one would think includes those teachings) would never fall. Which means those teachings and that same Authority exist today. Your response was yeah but then God deluded people.

So I asked for clarification on that remark and you replied the Apostles were not deluded. The other part of that questions was then verifying that you think God works against Himself by deluding people - which you have yet to answer.

You still don't understand, even after that last post! I have answered you. Maybe this will give some added help...

“I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal” 1 Kings 19​

God has always had those that that were His, who do not worship other gods.

 

[7xlightray]

God even said that His Kingdom He established on earth (which one would think includes those teachings) would never fall. Which means those teachings and that same Authority exist today.

And as to the kingdom, God has not fulfilled His promise to Abraham yet Genesis 13:14-17.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You still don't understand, even after that last post! I have answered you. Maybe this will give some added help...

“I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal” 1 Kings 19​

God has always had those that that were His, who do not worship other gods.

Let me put it another way. Do the teachings of Christ exist today and where do we find those?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And as to the kingdom, God has not fulfilled His promise to Abraham yet Genesis 13:14-17.

Last I heard Abraham has a lot of "sons" who have inherited redemption through Christ our Lord God, the Son of God.

 

[7xlightray]

Let me put it another way. Do the teachings of Christ exist today and where do we find those?

Yes.
One place to find the teachings of Christ is in scripture, no, I'm not trying to be smart, it is the best place. God would have those that are His scattered around the globe, I don't know each one personally. As for groups, if you look on the Internet you'll find them. I don't know what all the different groups teach, on all doctrines, but their out there.

 

[7xlightray]

Last I heard Abraham has a lot of "sons" who have inherited redemption through Christ our Lord God, the Son of God.

Yes, but Abraham has not received the land yet. I have not heard of Abraham resurrected and walking on this earth, nor have I heard of the resurrection that is yet to come. Have you seen Abraham walking around? This is the age of the Gentiles brought into the promises, and this age will come to an end, then will start the next age, when there shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. When Christ sets up his kingdom on earth with those that are with him, which at the end of, the last enemy is destroyed. For Christ must reign TILL, all his enemies are put under him, then he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes.
One place to find the teachings of Christ is in scripture, no, I'm not trying to be smart, it is the best place. God would have those that are His scattered around the globe, I don't know each one personally. As for groups, if you look on the Internet you'll find them. I don't know what all the different groups teach, on all doctrines, but their out there.

Yeah, they are out there. So the real position being presented here is that unless we agree with a particular position (Trinity Doctrine for example), it is deluded. Am happy belonging to a group where I consent to the Authoriting of their leadership and teachings and not have to worry that it is up to me to find stuff.

 

[7xlightray]

Yeah, they are out there. So the real position being presented here is that unless we agree with a particular position (Trinity Doctrine for example), it is deluded. Am happy belonging to a group where I consent to the Authoriting of their leadership and teachings and not have to worry that it is up to me to find stuff.

But then you would be leaving it up to someone else to find the truth for you. Been there, done that. I'm not content to leave my salvation in someone else's hands, and for them to find, and interpret their form of truth for me.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

But then you would be leaving it up to someone else to find the truth for you. Been there, done that. I'm not content to leave my salvation in someone else's hands, and for them to find, and interpret their form of truth for me.

Well since in my case, the Person I am leaving it up to is God - am content that He did as He said He would and protected the teachings He gave the Apostles. So I can be content because I do not need to trust how I feel about those teachings or what I think particular Scriptures mean when there exists such a rich treasure from God of resources to consult. Far less confusing, which one should expect from God efforts in this regard. And while my trust is indeed in Someone else's hands, since those are not human hands I can trust He has ALREADY provided for our salvation, provided for revealing Truth to ALL mankind and provided for interpreting those revelations (including Sacred Scripture) for ALL of mankind. So all I need do is trust in Faith He has given me that He did what He said He did for all of us.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Why in all the world would YHWH assume limited knowledge, for this? Notice it says in Gen. 18

“the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great... I will go down now, and see whether they have done...”​

...but the Lord did not go down...

22 “And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.”

How did the Lord go down to Sodom when he is standing before Abraham?​

You missed verse 16 which says that Abraham went with the two angels to start them on their journey.

16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to start them on the way.

YHWH was ALONE for the brief time Abraham was away from him. So, Abraham was NOT ALWAYS standing before YHWH. During the brief period YHWH was alone he contemplated going down to Sodom himself.

Then the LORD thought to himself... "I must go down and see whether their deeds warrant the outcry which has reached me. I am resolved to know the truth." NEB [YHWH clearly had limited knowledge]

It was after this that Abraham was standing before YHWH because he came near to YHWH again vs, 22-23.

The angels said, they will destroy Sodom, and that the Lord sent them to destroy. That's the right way to understand it. They are angels, and the Lord's name is in them, God sends His angels in His name.

It does NOT say that the Lord's name is in them. This is said of only one Angel and YHWH himself calls him "The LORD your God"(Exodus 23:20-25).​

No one has seen God.

False! John said that no one had comprehended God at any time. John meant that no man had seen God with the eyes of the understanding. Hagar said, "I see the God who sees me."

Ya, so Abraham seen YHWH, and what? ...the YHWH, Who is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit fit into one body on earth, or maybe just Jesus himself? God who does not dwell in a temple, for it cannot contain Him 2 Chronicles 2:5, somehow fits into a body, a body that dwells in a temple.

Not all Hebrew texts agree with this reading.

And the house which I build [is] great: for great [is] our God above all gods.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/2ch2.pdf

You can see that the text I cited says nothing of the sort.

Are you not familiar how the O/T scriptures speak...

Judges 2 :1 And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.​

The Angel is identifying himself as God here. It is plain!​

Received the law as it was ordained by angels Acts 7:53; Galatians 3:19.

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.​

First, in the new testament the word 'angels' ALWAYS refers to men. It is saying that the law was ordained by men.​

Genesis 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even. Then verse 18, And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my... some versions have “lords”, some “lord,” others “Lord,” KJV has “LORD,”

I have already said that two of the mortals were angels. The third was YHWH. It says that THREE mortals appeared to Abraham.
​

...anyway, we know they were angels.

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:...4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the Lord said: “I have surely seen the oppression of My people...8 So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians...11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee.​

The Angel is identifying himself as God. It is clear!​

Do we really think this was God Moses was looking at, and yet did not die?

Actually, the idea that a man would die if he saw God was a FALSE notion that was based in superstition and fear. Exodus chapter 3 says that Moses was AFRAID to look upon God. We know that Moses and the elders saw God at Sinai and they did NOT die.

Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. Exodus 24:9-11.

Note that it says that they saw God and they "ate and drank." They did NOT die. Note also that God was in human form on this occasion because it says that there was pavement of sapphire stone under his feet.

But this did not cure Moses of his superstition. Moses continued to fear to look upon God. So, God accommodated Moses' fear saying, "No man can see me and live." God was NOT stating a matter of fact. God was helping Moses as if to say, "Ok, Moses, you think that no man can see me and live so I am going to show you my back parts."

You have been soundly refuted.

 

[7xlightray]

Well since in my case, the Person I am leaving it up to is God - am content that He did as He said He would and protected the teachings He gave the Apostles. So I can be content because I do not need to trust how I feel about those teachings or what I think particular Scriptures mean when there exists such a rich treasure from God of resources to consult. Far less confusing, which one should expect from God efforts in this regard. And while my trust is indeed in Someone else's hands, since those are not human hands I can trust He has ALREADY provided for our salvation, provided for revealing Truth to ALL mankind and provided for interpreting those revelations (including Sacred Scripture) for ALL of mankind. So all I need do is trust in Faith He has given me that He did what He said He did for all of us.

I'm not trying to twist your arm, but a Cute twist though, on your part, I'm sure you knew I was referring to those that interpret God's Word, not God himself, or Christ, for we all have God's word, but which interpretation is the correct one, which is the truth?

Do you have the same God as Jesus?
Who was Jesus' God?
Was his God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
Was God the Son, the God of Jesus?
The God of Jesus, is the Father!

Many claim John's Gospel was written to prove Jesus is God. Well lets see...

In John 20:31 Did John write...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Or...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, God the Son; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Or is this truly what he wrote...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Did any of these, Saint Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Saint Irenæus, Origen, believe in the trinity as it is taught today, or as the Nicene Creed states? How did it go from what they taught, to what is in the Nicene Creed?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I'm not trying to twist your arm, but a Cute twist though, on your part, I'm sure you knew I was referring to those that interpret God's Word, not God himself, or Christ, for we all have God's word, but which interpretation is the correct one, which is the truth?

Do you have the same God as Jesus?
Who was Jesus' God?
Was his God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
Was God the Son, the God of Jesus?
The God of Jesus, is the Father!

Many claim John's Gospel was written to prove Jesus is God. Well lets see...

In John 20:31 Did John write...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Or...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, God the Son; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Or is this truly what he wrote...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Did any of these, Saint Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Saint Irenæus, Origen, believe in the trinity as it is taught today, or as the Nicene Creed states? How did it go from what they taught, to what is in the Nicene Creed?

Yeah, am happy to know they did. Did some of them make statements that place doubt on what they meant/taught? Perhaps, but typically if we dig a little more rather than listen to what some modern opinion of their words tells us we find the opinion incompatible with other things they said.


The Didache
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

"And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (ibid.).

"Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (ibid., 9).

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number" (ibid., 25).



Origen
"For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

"No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages" (ibid.).

"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (ibid.).

 

[Simon Crosby]

I'm not trying to twist your arm, but a Cute twist though, on your part, I'm sure you knew I was referring to those that interpret God's Word, not God himself, or Christ, for we all have God's word, but which interpretation is the correct one, which is the truth?

Do you have the same God as Jesus?
Who was Jesus' God?
Was his God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
Was God the Son, the God of Jesus?
The God of Jesus, is the Father!

Many claim John's Gospel was written to prove Jesus is God. Well lets see...

In John 20:31 Did John write...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Or...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, God the Son; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Or is this truly what he wrote...

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Did any of these, Saint Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Saint Irenæus, Origen, believe in the trinity as it is taught today, or as the Nicene Creed states? How did it go from what they taught, to what is in the Nicene Creed?

Tertullian coined the term Trinity and spoke of the deity of Jesus Christ.

St. Irenaeus also testifies to it.

As far as Origen is concerned, he does testify to the divinity of our Lord. but several regard him as having been an inspiration for Arius.

 

[7xlightray]

You missed verse 16 which says that Abraham went with the two angels to start them on their journey.

16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to start them on the way.

YHWH was ALONE for the brief time Abraham was away from him. So, Abraham was NOT ALWAYS standing before YHWH. During the brief period YHWH was alone he contemplated going down to Sodom himself.

Then the LORD thought to himself... "I must go down and see whether their deeds warrant the outcry which has reached me. I am resolved to know the truth." NEB [YHWH clearly had limited knowledge]

It was after this that Abraham was standing before YHWH because he came near to YHWH again vs, 22-23.​

​

It does not say, “two angels to start them on their journey,” it says, “And the men rose up from thence,” they split up in verse 22.

Genesis 18
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?​

It does not say YHWH was ALONE, it say, “Abraham stood yet before the Lord”. Abraham remained standing before the Lord, read other Bible versions of this verse.

It does NOT say that the Lord's name is in them. This is said of only one Angel and YHWH himself calls him "The LORD your God"(Exodus 23:20-25).

I know that is not what is says there, but what it means is they speak for God.

Not all Hebrew texts agree with this reading.

And the house which I build [is] great: for great [is] our God above all gods.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/2ch2.pdf

You can see that the text I cited says nothing of the sort.

Oh, sorry it should have been was 2 Chronicles 2:6, missed it by one verse.

The Angel is identifying himself as God here. It is plain!

It does not say God the angel, it says angel OF the Lord. It's an angel.

First, in the new testament the word 'angels' ALWAYS refers to men. It is saying that the law was ordained by men.

Here are a few Matthew 4:6; Matthew 13:49; Matthew 16:27; Matthew 18:10. How long have you been reading the scriptures?

The Angel is identifying himself as God. It is clear!

It does not say God the angel.

False! John said that no one had comprehended God at any time. John meant that no man had seen God with the eyes of the understanding. Hagar said, "I see the God who sees me."

Actually, the idea that a man would die if he saw God was a FALSE notion that was based in superstition and fear. Exodus chapter 3 says that Moses was AFRAID to look upon God. We know that Moses and the elders saw God at Sinai and they did NOT die.

Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. Exodus 24:9-11.

Note that it says that they saw God and they "ate and drank." They did NOT die. Note also that God was in human form on this occasion because it says that there was pavement of sapphire stone under his feet.

But this did not cure Moses of his superstition. Moses continued to fear to look upon God. So, God accommodated Moses' fear saying, "No man can see me and live." God was NOT stating a matter of fact. God was helping Moses as if to say, "Ok, Moses, you think that no man can see me and live so I am going to show you my back parts."

You have been soundly refuted.

1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Exodus 33:20

 

[7xlightray]

Yeah, am happy to know they did. Did some of them make statements that place doubt on what they meant/taught? Perhaps, but typically if we dig a little more rather than listen to what some modern opinion of their words tells us we find the opinion incompatible with other things they said.


The Didache
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

"And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (ibid.).

"Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (ibid., 9).

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number" (ibid., 25).



Origen
"For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

"No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages" (ibid.).

"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (ibid.).

No, what I said was...

Did any of these, Saint Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Saint Irenæus, Origen, believe in the trinity as it is taught today, or as the Nicene Creed states? How did it go from what they taught, to what is in the Nicene Creed?

 

[7xlightray]

Tertullian coined the term Trinity and spoke of the deity of Jesus Christ.

St. Irenaeus also testifies to it.

As far as Origen is concerned, he does testify to the divinity of our Lord. but several regard him as having been an inspiration for Arius.

What I said was...

Did any of these, Saint Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Saint Irenæus, Origen, believe in the trinity as it is taught today, or as the Nicene Creed states? How did it go from what they taught, to what is in the Nicene Creed?