Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

[MamaZ]

We have already been Judged not guilty by the blood of Christ if indeed one has Christ in them..

 

[Thekla]

Since you cannot explain the meaning of Ro 3:25-26 consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture
(as shown [post=63164645]here[/post] and [post=63167342]here[/post]), you are in no position to assert penal substitionary atonement is not Biblical.

Penal substitutionary atonement is the plain teaching of Ro 3:25-26, where sacrificial payment of the punishment on sin is indicated.

Isa 53:5 expliciity states it: the chastisement that brought us peace was upon him."

And dying for the sin of all mankind is not consistent with the rest of Scripture, nor the sovereignty of God.

So why do you wrestle the word of God (2Ti 3:16) which you cannot even understand or explain?

Here is Isaiah 53:9-10

I will appoint evil men for His burial and rich men for His death, because He committed no lawlessness, nor was deceit found in His mouth. The Lord wishes to cleanse Him of His wound, and if you give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed.

What is the wound Christ was 'healed from' ? Death; He rose from the tomb.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, God's justice requires punishment for law breaking, just as does our justice system.

Justice is not accomplished if the penalty is not paid, just as in our justice system.

But divine justice is always accomplished, for God is loser to no man.

Jesus paid the penalty due on our sin at the Final Judgment.

Jesus didn't "fill" us with righteousness until he had first "emptied" us of defilement by paying its penalty.

In Jesus Christ, all things are recapitulated - not as pieces, but as a whole, in a person.

Yes, in Christ all types are recapitulated, but not recapitulated in each type.

What is God's justice ? To be sacrificed for our sake, that we may be restored to God (which we could not do ourselves, and which is an ontological redemption by grace through adoption).

God's justice is the requirement that law breaking be punished, as is all justice.

Satisfying justice means paying the penalty for law breaking.

 

[Thekla]

Yes, in Christ all types are recapitulated, but not recapitulated in each type.


God's justice is the requirement that law breaking be punished, as is all justice.

Satisfying justice means paying the penalty for law breaking.

We (mostly) all die.

 

[Clare73]

Kaporet is a "thing of cleansing/wiping out"; hilastarion means also expiation.

The Hebrew kaporet indicated sacrificial expiation, and was used of the Mercy Seat.

The Greek hilasterion is propitiatory.

Chastisement is for correction.

Jesus was chastised to correct us?

and death was the result of sin.

Christ conquered death by becoming as us (taking on our mortality).

Christ conquered death by his own taking back of his life at the resurrection (Jn 10:18).

 

[Clare73]

He became as a 'sin-offering' for us, that we are set aright with God through faith in His blood and by His resurrection we are restored ...

We are redeemed by faith in his blood.

Redemption = bought at a price.

 

[Thekla]

The Hebrew kaporet indicated sacrificial expiation, and was used of the Mercy Seat.

The Greek hilasterion is propitiatory.



Jesus was chastised to correct us?


Christ conquered death by his own taking back of his life at the resurrection (Jn 10:18).

The Greek definition you give is the 'truncated' version; it also includes expiation.

Are we corrected/put aright with God through faith in Christ's blood ?

The result of sin = death; this is clearly stated in Genesis, and by Paul.

What sin did Christ commit ? None ! Yet He was voluntarily treated as one who sinned (see Isaiah and the Psalms), that we might be redeemed.

It is also of note that (per Jewish explanation) the sacrifice of an innocent animal for the sins of the people would trigger the conscience. Is our conscience not "triggered" by the crucifixion of Christ, who though innocent was voluntarily beaten and crucified for our sake ? If we have any conscience left of the one God created us with, this alone should 'trigger' it into action - and lead us to reconsider the way we treat our neighbor. Note also the parable of the Prodigal, and what exactly God considers to be "a pleasing" sacrifice.

 

[Thekla]

We are redeemed by faith in his blood.

Redemption is bought at a price.

Indeed, at a horrific price; He who committed no sin is treated as the worst of sinners by His own creation (man) for the sake of those who are "the worst/chief of sinners" (Paul).

 

[Clare73]

Here is Isaiah 53:9-10

I will appoint evil men for His burial and rich men for His death, because He committed no lawlessness, nor was deceit found in His mouth.

The Lord wishes to cleanse Him of His wound, and if you give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed.

What is the wound Christ was 'healed from' ? Death; he rose from the tomb.

Your translation limps.

Christ was not "wounded," he lay down his life, and he himself took it up again (Jn 10:18).

The text reads: "It was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer."

 

[Ceridwen]

I have yet to see a supporter of Penal Substitutionary Atonement produce any passages that support the more odious elements of the theory.

Odiousness has degrees. There are things that are more and less odious. And, odiousness is a matter of perspective. One person's execration is another person's delight. The Bible says that the meaning of the cross is an "offense." (Galatians 5:11). To some people it is odious and to the believer it is delightful.

Imagine the most loathsome account of the meaning of the cross. The most detestable, vile, repugnant, and defiling explanation to the carnal man. That meaning is the true, Biblical, and holy meaning of Christ's work on earth.

We must continue to teach Jesus's wrath-bearing substitution even though it is “foolishness to those who are perishing”, because we know that it is the power of God to those who believe and embrace it, resulting in salvation (1 Cor. 1:21). Praise be to Jesus Christ and his marvelous, merciful and delightfully offensive atonement!

I am not saying that you are an unbeliever, but we all must struggle against our carnal nature that would recoil with horror from the Gospel. The true Gospel that Jesus came to herald was one that was so offensive that He pronounced a special blessing on all those who were able to receive it: “And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me” (Luke 7:23). It takes a special blessing not to be offended in Christ.

People -- including Christians -- if they hear and understand the true Gospel, and see and hear the true Jesus, will in some measure be offended or will be unable to believe and be saved. Together, we should encourage each other to embrace what would be offensive to the natural man.

 

[Thekla]

Your translation limps.

Christ was not "wounded," he lay down his life, and he himself took it up again (Jn 10:18).

The text reads: "It was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer."

You mean from Isaiah ?

It's an ancient version of the Bible, older than the Masoretic that is used presently. It demonstrates the understanding of the idea.

"Therefore my Father loves me because I lay down my life and take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself.

 

[Clare73]

The Greek definition you give is the 'truncated' version; it also includes expiation.

Take it up with Paul and John.

They are the ones who chose the Greek word hilasterion with its Greek meaning, which came about thusly:

God made Christ the equivalent of the "mercy seat" that by faith in His blood, God's wrath might be held back.

Mercy Seat has meant "removal of sin by expiatory sacrifice" since the OT was translated into Greek 300 years before the birth of Christ.

The Jewish translators of the OT into the Greek (Septuagint, LXX) stated a propitiatory sacrifice in their translation of "Mercy Seat" into the Greek words hilasterion epithema.

Hilasterion epithema refers to the lid or cover of the Ark of the Covenant, called kapporeth in the Hebrew.

In the Hebrew it meant the covering of, or the removal of sin (Ps 32:1) by means of expiatory (animal) sacrifice, which they translated as epithema (cover) in the Greek.

They added hilasterion, which is an adjective signifying the propitiatory, thereby translating Mercy Seat as hilasterion epithema.

Eventually, the Greek word hilasterion stood for both Greek words hilasterion (propitiatory sacrifice) and epithema (cover).

So the OT Hebrew kapporeth = Greek OT hilasterion epithema since ~300 years before the birth of Christ = English NT sacrificial expiatory propitiation of Christ's atonement in Ro 3:25-26.

So "sacrificial expiatory propitiation" has been the NT meaning of Christ's "atonement" in Ro 3:25-26 since the Greek NT was written, being taken from the Greek OT (LXX), which was translated from the Hebrew ~300 years before the birth of Christ.

Are we corrected/put aright with God through faith in Christ's blood ?

We are "corrected/put aright" with God through faith as much as the dead whom Christ raised were "corrected/put aright."

"Corrected/put aright" is such pitiful human thinking for so great a salvation.

The result of sin = death; this is clearly stated in Genesis, and by Paul.

Yes, Adam was punished with two kinds of death:
1) spiritual death (loss of Holy Spirit life) the instant he sinned, and

2) physical death of his body, after a few centuries.

We undergo both kinds of death for the same reason: sin.

And resurrection from both
1) by the new birth and
2) at the general resurrection
is more than just "corrected/put aright."

What sin did Christ commit ? None ! Yet He was voluntarily treated as one who sinned (see Isaiah and the Psalms), that we might be redeemed.

Yes, redeemed is bought at a price, not just "corrected/put aright."

 

[Crandaddy]

He became as us - took on flesh, and the Law's judgement - that we are restored to God through Him.

Remember, because of sin death entered, and because of death we sin. The two are linked, both in the Fall (if you eat of this/trespass the command ... you will die ) reiterated by Paul.

By His conquering death, we are no longer slaves to death or sin but can be restored to right relationship with God, with others, and ourselves.

But the Law condemns us to the second death as well as the first, and salvation does not exempt us from the first death. Christ conquered not only death, but hell also, so that by mystically participating in His Passion and Death we might also participate in His Resurrection and Life.

The old and sinful man stands condemned by the Law and must die. He cannot be saved. But by Christ's Harrowing of hell, He generates a new man in place of the old, who might live eternally in His resurrected Life. This is why He says that we must take up our crosses and follow Him--because the death He dies is the death of the old and sinful man, and that death we also must face.

In other words, Christ's Passion and Death is our own death of the old and sinful man, in which we must mystically participate if we are to be saved, but if we do this, His descent into hell and His Harrowing of it become ours as well, so that we might participate in His Resurrection and Life.

You've got it backwards.

Our justice system is patterned on the divine justice system revealed in Scripture.

Right (although I would say "derived from" rather than "patterned on").

Nor does righteousness have any content which fills.

Not literally, no. But my point is that sin is an ontological deficiency in us, and Christ's righteousness figuratively "fills up" that deficiency, thereby making us righteous.

 

[Clare73]

You mean from Isaiah ?

It's an ancient version of the Bible, older than the Masoretic that is used presently. It demonstrates the understanding of the idea.

"Therefore my Father loves me because I lay down my life and take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself.

I'd rather have accurate words, for the understanding of it comes from the NT, not from the Jews, who misunderstood many things.

 

[Thekla]

Take it up with Paul and John.

They are the ones who chose the Greek word hilasterion with its Greek meaning, which came about thusly:

God made Christ the equivalent of the "mercy seat" that by faith in His blood, God's wrath might be held back.

Mercy Seat has meant "removal of sin by expiatory sacrifice" since the OT was translated into Greek 300 years before the birth of Christ.

The Jewish translators of the OT into the Greek (Septuagint, LXX) stated a propitiatory sacrifice in their translation of "Mercy Seat" into the Greek words hilasterion epithema.

Hilasterion epithema refers to the lid or cover of the Ark of the Covenant, called kapporeth in the Hebrew.

In the Hebrew it meant the covering of, or the removal of sin (Ps 32:1) by means of expiatory (animal) sacrifice, which they translated as epithema (cover) in the Greek.

They added hilasterion, which is an adjective signifying the propitiatory, thereby translating Mercy Seat as hilasterion epithema.

Eventually, the Greek word hilasterion stood for both Greek words hilasterion (propitiatory sacrifice) and epithema (cover).

So the OT Hebrew kapporeth = Greek OT hilasterion epithema since ~300 years before the birth of Christ = English NT sacrificial expiatory propitiation of Christ's atonement in Ro 3:25-26.

So "sacrificial expiatory propitiation" has been the NT meaning of Christ's "atonement" in Ro 3:25-26 since the Greek NT was written, being taken from the Greek OT (LXX), which was translated from the Hebrew ~300 years before the birth of Christ.

It is the meaning to those who wrote what you quote.

We are "corrected/put aright" with God through faith as much as the dead whom Christ raised were "corrected/put aright."

"Corrected/put aright" is such pitiful human thinking for so great a salvation.

It is only pitiful if it is considered without considering the grandeur of what Christ did, the eternal dimensions of this (including who He is and His suffering), and the depth of our condition away from God.

Yes, Adam was punished with two kinds of death:
1) spiritual death (loss of Holy Spirit life) the instant he sinned, and

2) physical death of his body, after a few centuries.

We undergo both kinds of death for the same reason: sin.

And resurrection from both
1) by the new birth and
2) at the general resurrection
is more than just "corrected/put aright."


Yes, redeemed is bought at a price, not just "corrected/put aright."

So purchasing has more value than giving ?

And payment is greater than mercy ?

It is the "price" that is the focus, and the result ...

As I think that the depth of being not aright with God is deeply deeply tragic and unsufferably horrifying and thus also the true depth of His love for us in spite of this. Such love that He lay down His life ...

 

[Clare73]

But the Law condemns us to the second death as well as the first, and salvation does not exempt us from the first death. Christ conquered not only death, but hell also, so that by mystically participating in His Passion and Death we might also participate in His Resurrection and Life.

The old and sinful man stands condemned by the Law and must die. He cannot be saved. But by Christ's Harrowing of hell, He generates a new man in place of the old, who might live eternally in His resurrected Life. This is why He says that we must take up our crosses and follow Him--because the death He dies is the death of the old and sinful man, and that death we also must face.

Christ died for sin, that I could die to sin.

But the dying to sin is mine.

 

[Clare73]

It is the meaning to those who wrote what you quote.

The meaning of those who wrote what I quote is: new birth, resurrection from the dead, redemption from eternal death, salvation from wrath (Ro 5:9), not "corrected/set aright."

It is only pitiful if it is considered without considering the grandeur of what Christ did, the eternal dimensions of this (including who He is and His suffering), and the depth of our condition away from God.

So purchasing has more value than giving ?

And payment is greater than mercy ?

It is the "price" that is the focus, and the result ...

As I think that the depth of being not aright with God is deeply deeply tragic and unsufferably horrifying and thus also the true depth of His love for us in spite of this. Such love that He lay down His life ...

I prefer the divine Biblical terminology over the human theological terminology:

purchased by his blood

bought at a price

purchased men for God

redeemed not with silver and gold, but with the precious blood of the Lamb

gave himself as a ransom

bore our sin in his body

washed in his blood

 

[Crandaddy]

Christ died for sin, that I could die to sin.

But the dying to sin is mine.

It is by your dying to sin that you participate in Christ's dying for sin.

 

[Thekla]

I'd rather have accurate words, for the understanding of it comes from the NT, not from the Jews, who misunderstood many things.

The LXX is a viable OT, and is a template used for translating the NT, actually.

I do wonder, if that is your view re: texts, why you would use the Masoretic ?

It is also the understanding evidenced among the native Greek speaking Christians from the earliest centuries of record.

 

[Clare73]

It is by your dying to sin that you participate in Christ's dying for sin.

I'm not called to participate in Christ's dying for sin.

I receive the benefits of his dying for sin through faith, not participation in his death.

Or, are you using "participate" to mean the same as "receive"?