Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

[Catholic Dude]

Most people don't realize that there are different views of the Atonement out there. Most Protestants (not all), especially Calvinists, believe in a form of Atonement called Penal Substitution. This view teaches that Jesus received the punishment the sinner deserved. Well, if the sinner deserves hellfire, then that's must be what Jesus endured in their place!

Consider the following quotes from well known Protestant (mostly Calvinist) authors:

• At 3 o’clock that dark Friday afternoon, the Father turned His face away and the ancient, eternal fellowship between Father and Son was broken as divine wrath rained down like a million Soddoms and Gomorrah’s. In the terror and agony of it all, Jesus cried, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Thabiti Anyabwile, What does it mean for the Father to Forsake the Son? Part 3)

• We should remember that Christ's suffering in His human nature, as He hung on the cross those six hours, was not primarily physical, but mental and spiritual. When He cried out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me," He was literally suffering the pangs of hell. For that is essentially what hell is, separation from God, separation from everything that is good and desirable. Such suffering is beyond our comprehension. But since He suffered as a divine-human person, His suffering was a just equivalent for all that His people would have suffered in an eternity in hell. (Boettner, Loraine. “The Reformed Faith.” Chapter 3.)

• The penalty of the divine law is said to be eternal death. Therefore if Christ suffered the penalty of the law He must have suffered death eternal; or, as others say, He must have endured the same kind of sufferings as those who are cast off from God and die eternally are called upon to suffer. (Hodge, Charles. “Systematic Theology.” Vol. 2, Part 3, Ch 6, Sec 3)

• So then, gaze at the heavenly picture of Christ, who descended into hell for your sake and was forsaken by God as one eternally damned when he spoke the words on the cross, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!” - “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” In that picture your hell is defeated and your uncertain election is made sure. (Luther, Martin. “Treatise on Preparing to Die.&#8221

• “What prevents us from seeing God is our heart. Our impurity. But Jesus had no impurity. And Thomas said He was pure in heart. So obviously He had some, some experience of the beauty of the Father. Until that moment that my sin was placed upon Him. And the one who was pure was pure no more. And God cursed Him. It was if there was a cry from Heaven – excuse my language but I can be no more accurate than to say – it was as if Jesus heard the words 'God damn you', because that's what it meant to be cursed, to be damned, to be under the anathema of the Father. As I said I don't understand that, but I know that it's true.” (R.C. Sproul. Together for the Gospel. April 17, 2008. Louisville, KY. Session V - The Curse Motif of the Atonement. Minute 55:01)

• “Hell is all about echoing faintly the glory of Calvary. That's the meaning of hell in this room right now. To help you feel in some emotional measure the magnificence of what Christ did for you when he bore not only your eternal suffering, but millions of people's eternal suffering when His Father put our curse on Him. What a Saviour is echoed in the flames of hell. So that's what I mean when I say hell is an echo of the glory of God, and an echo of the Savior's sufferings, and therefore an echo of the infinite love of God for our souls.” (John Piper. Resolved Conference 2008. Session 8 – The Echo and Insufficiency of Hell. Min 40:00)

There are more quotes like this, but this should be enough to get people to stop and realize what exactly is being said.


Now the big question is: Does the Bible EVER say that Jesus endured the Wrath of the Father? NO! It is unbiblical and even blasphemy to suggest Jesus suffered the Father's Wrath. Look high, look low, and you'll NEVER find this taught in Scripture.

To understand the heart of salvation, THE CROSS, one must actually study the Bible on the matter and not blindly follow theologians:

http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/07/atonement-according-to-scripture-more.html

 

[Catholic Dude]

When Jesus said "My God, why have you forsaken me," Jesus was intoning Psalm 22!
Psalm 22 is filled with Messianic references about how Jesus would suffer, NONE OF WHICH had anything to do with the Father's Wrath!

Consider:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
​

The Father only "forsook" Jesus in the sense that the Father didn't send help from the wicked men persecuting Jesus, even though He could have (Mt 26:53).

And in fact, Psalm 22 ends in a VICTORY, by stating how God does not abandon His servants, even if He permits them to suffer:

24 For he did not despise or abhor
the affliction of the afflicted;
he did not hide his face from me,
but heard when I cried to him.
​

Do you see the desperation those Protestant theologians go to in appealing to "My God, My God" and coming to the rash and ugly conclusion that it means Jesus suffered His Father's Wrath? Astonishing.

 

[Albion]

So...what IS "the Protestant view of the Cross?"

 

[Catholic Dude]

Penal Substitution is the historical Protestant view. It's the view that Justification by Faith Alone (as historically defined by them) is based upon.

 

[Albion]

Penal Substitution is the historical Protestant view. It's the view that Justification by Faith Alone (as historically defined by them) is based upon.

Thanks. That's pretty much the Bible's teaching on the subject, too.

 

[Catholic Dude]

So...what IS "the Protestant view of the Cross?"

Thanks. That's pretty much the Bible's teaching on the subject, too.

What's pretty much the Bible's teaching? Penal Substitution? If so, then kindly show a few texts plainly showing the Father poured His Wrath out on Jesus.

I'm curious to see if Protestants really are faithful to that Sola Scriptura thing

 

[prov1810]

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2Cor 5:21)


Sin is punished and He was punished on our behalf. His righteousness is imputed to us.

 

[Mediaeval]

It was a Protestant, Gustav Aulen, who wrote the book Christus Victor.

 

[Albion]

What's pretty much the Bible's teaching? Penal Substitution?

That's right.

I'm curious to see if Protestants really are faithful to that Sola Scriptura thing

That seems fair. If any Protestant answers you and does NOT base his thinking on the Bible, you will have proved your point.

 

[yogosans14]

I believe both Catholics and Protestants will go to Heaven so no need to drag each other down!

God bless

 

[Rick Otto]

Now the big question is: Does the Bible EVER say that Jesus endured the Wrath of the Father? NO! It is unbiblical and even blasphemy to suggest Jesus suffered the Father's Wrath. Look high, look low, and you'll NEVER find this taught in Scripture.

My big question would be why is He then called Redeemer if He didn't pay the price for our sins?
If hellfire isn't God's wrath, what is?

 

[Leuko Petra]

Most people don't realize that there are different views of the Atonement out there. Most Protestants (not all), especially Calvinists, believe in a form of Atonement called Penal Substitution. This view teaches that Jesus received the punishment the sinner deserved. Well, if the sinner deserves hellfire, then that's must be what Jesus endured in their place! ...

Though this is not all, since the sinner must also die in Christ...

...the old man of sin must also die forever...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1:18

Jesus experienced this not only from the Garden, but all the way to the Cross and upon it. Jesus delivered His followers from it...

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 53:11

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? Luke 24:26

Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. Acts 17:3

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:9

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Hebrews 13:12

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1 Peter 2:21

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1 Peter 4:1

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

etc...

...there is indeed an atonement at the cross, but it is not the only one to be made...

 

[Catholic Dude]

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2Cor 5:21)

Sin is punished and He was punished on our behalf. His righteousness is imputed to us.

That says nothing about the Father pouring out His Wrath on Jesus. To be "made sin" means "to be made a sin offering," nothing to do with undergoing God's wrath.

That's right.
That seems fair. If any Protestant answers you and does NOT base his thinking on the Bible, you will have proved your point.

So where are the Biblical texts? Please don't waste our time if you don't actually want to answer the question!

My big question would be why is He then called Redeemer if He didn't pay the price for our sins? If hellfire isn't God's wrath, what is?

A redeemer does pay the price for sins, but that doesn't mean the redeemer takes the person's place! Many people in Scripture made atonement for sins and it never involved them taking the wrath or punishment in place of the sinner.

You can look all through Scripture and you'll not see any hint of Jesus enduring the Father's wrath.

 

[Albion]

So where are the Biblical texts? Please don't waste our time if you don't actually want to answer the question!

If you didn't notice--because I did--several other posters answered before I finished my post. I could repeat the verses they and others since have cited, if you need that.

 

[Catholic Dude]

I already answer this in a private email, so I'll just cut and paste my same response.

Though this is not all, since the sinner must also die in Christ...

...the old man of sin must also die forever...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1:18

Jesus experienced this not only from the Garden, but all the way to the Cross and upon it. Jesus delivered His followers from it...

You're jumping to conclusions. That's not exegesis. Paul is speaking of God's wrath upon unrighteous men. To carry this over to Jesus is begging the question.

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10

DELIVERS FROM the wrath TO COME. That says nothing about Jesus receiving this wrath at the Cross. If I deliver you from a coming hurricane, that says nothing about me suffering the hurricane in your place.

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

This says nothing about God's wrath. You're reading ideas into the text. The phrase "made to be sin" comes from the Old Testament and means "made to be a sin offering".

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? Luke 24:26

Suffer what things? Luke tells us:

18 Then one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only stranger in Jerusalem who does not know the things that have taken place there in these days?” 19 He asked them, “What things?” They replied, “The things about Jesus of Nazareth,[h] who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel.[i] Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things took place.
​

Again, you're reading too much into the text, projecting ideas that are not there. Luke tells us plainly that "these things" refer to the "chief priests" condemning to death and crucifying. This isn't God's wrath, it's the act of sinful men!

Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. Acts 17:3

Again, what about Christ suffering SHOWS this was suffering God's wrath? Nothing! Acts is very clear that Jesus suffering persecution at the hands of the Jews.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:9

See my response to 1 Thess 1:10 above.

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Hebrews 13:12

Jesus suffered at the hands of the Romans outside the gate! Not the Father's wrath!

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1 Peter 2:21

Again, where does it say this was the Father's wrath that Jesus suffered? The Bible says "don't go beyond what is written," so inserting 'the Father's wrath' whenever a text says Jesus suffered is "going beyond what is written".

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1 Peter 4:1

Suffered the beatings, crucifixion, and death. Are those not real sufferings?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

Yes, Jesus who was without sin suffered crucifixion for us, but this says nothing about the Father's anger.

The Father can NEVER be angry at His Son. That would destroy the Trinity and contradict the Scriptures "This is

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Catholic Dude;That says nothing about the Father pouring out His Wrath on Jesus. To be "made sin" means "to be made a sin offering," nothing to do with undergoing God's wrath.

We don't usualy associate wrath with the offering because the offering until Christ had never been human, but wrath is clearly what is poured out on sinner's as payment for their misdeeds.

So where are the Biblical texts? Please don't waste our time if you don't actually want to answer the question!

So they are right next to the ones with the word "trinity" in them. Stop wasting our time by acting like what's in your face doesn't exist.

A redeemer does pay the price for sins, but that doesn't mean the redeemer takes the person's place!

Yes it does. He took our place as debtors.

Many people in Scripture made atonement for sins and it never involved them taking the wrath or punishment in place of the sinner.

You're wasting our time with unsubstantiated assertions.

You can look all through Scripture and you'll not see any hint of Jesus enduring the Father's wrath.

Actualy, it is YOU who can do that, not me.

The Father can NEVER be angry at His Son. That would destroy the Trinity and contradict the Scripture

The Father never WAS angry at Jesus. He was angry at SIN.

 

[Leuko Petra]

I already answer this in a private email, so I'll just cut and paste my same response. ...

The Father can NEVER be angry at His Son. That would destroy the Trinity and contradict the Scriptures "This is

Romanism [that Great harlot; Rev 17] always ignores Peters words... and always blasphemes Christ Jesus... as it is written [Daniel/Revelation].

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" 1 Peter 3:18

...

[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? Psalms 22:1

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 15:34

Separation from the Father.

What caused it? Our iniquities, our sins...

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 2:51

"And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD..." Leviticus 16:8

Repent.

You do not have to watch it, but those wanting to know the True love of Jesus Christ will...
Walter Veith Questions And Answers (Rekindling Reformation) - YouTube
​

 

[Catholic Dude]

We don't usualy associate wrath with the offering because the offering until Christ had never been human, but wrath is clearly what is poured out on sinner's as payment for their misdeeds.

That's a weak argument. For such a significant theological detail, I'm astonished this is the best you can offer. Just because wrath is poured out on a sinner doesn't mean it was poured out on Jesus.

So they are right next to the ones with the word "trinity" in them. Stop wasting our time by acting like what's in your face doesn't exist.

The word Trinity isn't in the Bible, but the CONCEPT is there. Can you SHOW where the CONCEPT in ANY CLEAR form of God pouring out His Wrath on Jesus is PLAINLY TAUGHT?

Yes it does. He took our place as debtors.

This isn't the same as taking a person's criminal punishment. That's like saying if I owe $1000 or will face jail time, that the person who pays my $1000 suffered jail time in my place. A ransom is about someone who has money getting someone out of a situation where they owe money.

Many people in Scripture made atonement for sins and it never involved them taking the wrath or punishment in place of the sinner.

You're wasting our time with unsubstantiated assertions.

Clearly you didn't read the link in the opening post where this is laid out. Let me get those texts for you:

Moses made atonement, turns away God's wrath, without Moses having to suffer the wrath:

Exodus 32:30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."​

Psalm 106:19-23 They made a calf in Horeb and worshiped a metal image. ... Therefore he [God] said he would destroy them had not Moses, his chosen one, stood in the breach before him, to turn away his wrath from destroying them.​

Deut 9:13-29 You had made yourselves a golden calf. ... Then I [Moses] lay prostrate before the LORD as before, forty days and forty nights. I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all the sin that you had committed, in doing what was evil in the sight of the LORD to provoke him to anger. For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure that the LORD bore against you, so that he was ready to destroy you. But the LORD listened to me that time also.​

And there's Aaron, who made atonement, turning away God's wrath, without Aaron having to suffer that wrath:

Numbers 16:41-50 Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer, and put fire on it from off the altar and lay incense on it and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone out from the LORD; the plague has begun." So Aaron took it as Moses said and ran into the midst of the assembly. And behold, the plague had already begun among the people. And he put on the incense and made atonement for the people. And he stood between the dead and the living, and the plague was stopped.
​

And Phinehas, he also made atonement, turning away God's wrath, without Phinehas having to suffer that wrath:

Numbers 25:1-13 "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, has turned back my wrath from the people of Israel, in that he was jealous with my jealousy among them, so that I did not consume the people of Israel in my jealousy. 12Therefore say, 'Behold, I give to him my covenant of peace, 13and it shall be to him and to his descendants after him the covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God and made atonement for the people of Israel.'"​

Psalm 106:30-31 Then Phinehas stood up and intervened [Greek: "made atonement"], and the plague was stayed. And that [good work] was counted to him as righteousness from generation to generation forever.
​

This is how the Bible defines making atonement. It means someone offers up a good work that is pleasing in God's sight, and in turn God's wrath is appeased.

NEVER does the Biblical word "atonement" involve an innocent person taking the punishment in place of the guilty.

You can look all through Scripture and you'll not see any hint of Jesus enduring the Father's wrath.

Actualy, it is YOU who can do that, not me.

In TRUTH, I HAVE looked through the Scripture on this matter. Quite thoroughly. Most people have not, which is why you and others haven't even presented a single verse mentioning God's wrath being dumped on Jesus.

All that keeps getting presented is "Jesus suffered for us" type stuff, but this says nothing about having to endure the Father's Wrath. The Bible is plain, repeatedly saying what Jesus suffered was the physical tortures inflicted by the Jews and Romans.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Catholic Dude;That's a weak argument.

Suitable for you're weak assertion.

For such a significant theological detail, I'm astonished this is the best you can offer. Just because wrath is poured out on a sinner doesn't mean it was poured out on Jesus.

Yes it does because that is the price & He pais it. You obsesss on a gnat in order to avoid seeing & admitting the existence of the elephant.

The word Trinity isn't in the Bible, but the CONCEPT is there. Can you SHOW where the CONCEPT in ANY CLEAR form of God pouring out His Wrath on Jesus is PLAINLY TAUGHT?

Already have.
We simply disagree on what it means.
I'm OK with that.

This isn't the same as taking a person's criminal punishment. That's like saying if I owe $1000 or will face jail time, that the person who pays my $1000 suffered jail time in my place. A ransom is about someone who has money getting someone out of a situation where they owe money.

Yes, it's the same. The court doesn't care if Jesus gave you the money, the court's only duty is to collect it.

Clearly you didn't read the link in the opening post where this is laid out. Let me get those texts for you:

It didn't matter.

Moses made atonement, turns away God's wrath, without Moses having to suffer the wrath:
And Phinehas, he also made atonement, turning away God's wrath, without Phinehas having to suffer that wrath: This is how the Bible defines making atonement. It means someone offers up a good work that is pleasing in God's sight, and in turn God's wrath is appeased.

They personaly paid God's price with whatever they sacrificed, the sacrifice recieving the destruction/wrath.

NEVER does the Biblical word "atonement" involve an innocent person taking the punishment in place of the guilty.

Except for Jesus, you're right. Jesus put an end to the whole system of substituting an innocent animal by substituting His innocent self.

In TRUTH, I HAVE looked through the Scripture on this matter. Quite thoroughly. Most people have not, which is why you and others haven't even presented a single verse mentioning God's wrath being dumped on Jesus.

You were looking with you're spiritual eyes closed or you would plainly see the obvious truth & acknowlege it in the truth you've been shown. Here's one more:
Isaiah 53:10: Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

All that keeps getting presented is "Jesus suffered for us" type stuff, but this says nothing about having to endure the Father's Wrath

Says nothing only in your mind because you can't see how His wrath was poured out on the sacrifice instead of on the sinner. You just credit the sacrificer with "a good deed" which hollows out the entire concept of "sacrifice". That which is sacrificed bears the burden, pays the cost, endures the wrath at sin.

The Bible is plain, repeatedly saying what Jesus suffered was the physical tortures inflicted by the Jews and Romans.

Indeed. They were the chosen vessels from which God's wrath poured.

 

[Rick Otto]

.