Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

[MoreCoffee]

That is simply human reason at work, measuring God by ourselves and expecting him to be like us, instead of taking him at the plain words of Ro 3:25-26, for which passage you have no explanation consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture (as shown here).

I reckon that the Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory is a case of human beings reasoning God down to their size. Making him small and somewhat petty.

 

[Eliwho]

Romans 3:25 (previously cited in the thread) says that God makes Christ the "mercy seat/ilastirion/propiatiation" so that by faith in His blood God's anger is held back.

So only to point out that this teaching (PSA) is a particular view of the Holy Scriptures.

Let's see about this mercyseat.
It's in Hebrews, but Roman 3:25 says nothing of it.

: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the forbearance of God


If Paul could not speak of it, how are you able to clarify this for us now?

Hebrews 9:5 KJVA

And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly .

The mercy seat is still hidden in the cloud of incense which is accompanied by the prayers of us his saints.

Leviticus 16:13 KJVA

And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

Revelation 8:4 KJVA

And thesmoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

 

[Rev Randy]

Both ideas. Why does the fact that God the Father poured His wrath (placed our sins) on Jesus (God the Son), exclude the idea that Jesus's(God the Son) love was so great that He took that punishment for us? I'd say they work together perfectly. God cannot tolerate sin, and yet loved us with unfathomable love. He cannot, not punish sin, so who better to accept the punishment and be able to forgive us fully than God?

The wrath Christ endured came from man not God.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Says by wrath the land is darkened, the land darkened while he was upon the cross too.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Says by wrath the land is darkened, the land darkened while he was upon the cross too.

But it doesn't say that the darkening was wrath at Jesus, does it?

In fact it doesn't say, in the gospels, that the darkening is wrath at all.

In The Passion Of the Christ the darkness was interpreted as God shedding a tear for the suffering of his Son.

Death Scene from the Passion of the Christ - YouTube

 

[Fireinfolding]

By wrath the land is darkened

So likewise was the land was darkened from the sixth to the ninth hour when Jesus finally cried cried my God my God why hast thou forsaken me

In Job it says...

Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

So likewise is the hiding of the face shown in a little wrath also

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

By wrath the land is darkened

So likewise was the land was darkened from the sixth to the ninth hour when Jesus finally cried cried my God my God why hast thou forsaken me

In Job it says...

Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

So likewise is the hiding of the face shown in a little wrath also

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Yeah, but Job isn't one of the four gospels in my bible. I can't believe it is in yours either

Nor is Isaiah.

As fun as it is to mix and match bible verses to prove a theory eventually reality has to come forward and give each book and passage its own proper context.

I know that my JW visitors like the mix & match proof-verse approach but not many folk who take the sacred scriptures seriously do that.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yeah, but Job isn't one of the four gospels in my bible. I can't believe it is in yours either

Nor is Isaiah.

As fun as it is to mix and match bible verses to prove a theory eventually reality has to come forward and give each book and passage its own proper context.

I know that my JW visitors like the mix & match proof-verse approach but not many folk who take the sacred scriptures seriously do that.

Philip preached Jesus Christ out of the book of Isaiah to the eunuch, Jesus read Isaiah (closed the book) and said it was fulfilled in their hearing because they are they which testify of me.

The apostles all proved Jesus Christ out of the law and the prophets.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yeah, but Job isn't one of the four gospels in my bible. I can't believe it is in yours either

Mel Gibson isn't in my scripture, but I can believe he is in yours

 

[MoreCoffee]

Philip preached Jesus Christ out of the book of Isaiah to the eunuch, Jesus read Isaiah (closed the book) and said it was fulfilled in their hearing because they are they which testify of me.

The apostles all proved Jesus Christ out of the law and the prophets.

All that is true yet none of it gives divine approval to every and any mix and match proof-text theory that folk create.

The darkness at Jesus crucifixion can just as well, and probably more truthfully, be seen as God's terrible sorrow at the suffering and death of the Son.

 

[Fireinfolding]

All that is true yet none of it gives divine approval to every and any mix and match proof-text theory that folk create.

The darkness at Jesus crucifixion can just as well, and probably more truthfully, be seen as God's terrible sorrow at the suffering and death of the Son.

Wrath = land darkened, thus land is darkened on the cross. In a little wrath he hides his face, Jesus asks why hast thou forsaken me? Job says it can be done against a nation or a man, and Jesus died for the nation. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Says this also

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[Eliwho]

All that is true yet none of it gives divine approval to every and any mix and match proof-text theory that folk create.

The darkness at Jesus crucifixion can just as well, and probably more truthfully, be seen as God's terrible sorrow at the suffering and death of the Son.

Got a scripture that says God's sorrow is the darkness of the land?
Here's one that said God was pleased to do it, not sorrowful.

saiah 53:10 KJVA

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief : when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah does not say God is pouring out all of his wrath against every sin ever sinned onto Jesus Christ.

The passage that you've quoted does not even say God is angry.

 

[Eliwho]

I knew you was doin' that Sis.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Isaiah does not say God is pouring out all of his wrath against every sin ever sinned onto Jesus Christ.

The passage that you've quoted does not even say God is angry.

I didn't say anything like whatever your saying anyway

 

[Fireinfolding]

I knew you was doin' that Sis.

Hey bro

Glad you don't feel like you have the authoriity to interpret Gods word by a Mel Gibson movie

 

[Eliwho]

Got a scripture that says God's sorrow is the darkness of the land?
Here's one that said God was pleased to do it, not sorrowful.

saiah 53:10 KJVA

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief : when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

BUMP

This dispels yer sorrow theory.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I didn't say anything like whatever your saying anyway

That is a good thing. The Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory says it.

I am glad you do not say it too.

 

[Clare73]

Folk can believe the Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) theory but to do so does raise questions about what sort of being God is and what kind of justice God represents.

That is simply human reason at work, measuring God by ourselves and expecting him to be like us, instead of taking him at the plain words of Ro 3:25-26, for which passage you have no explanation consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture (as shown [post=63164645]here[/post]).

I reckon that the Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory is a case of human beings reasoning Godown to their size. Making him small and somewhat petty.

And in the absence of an explanation of Ro 3:25-26 consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture, you are in no position to make that assertion, based as it is in ignorance of Ro 3:25-26.

 

[Eliwho]

Hey bro

Glad you don't feel like you have the authoriity to interpret Gods word by a Mel Gibson movie

Actually watched his The Passion movie this week.