• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,055
7,501
North Carolina
✟342,885.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You're just repeating yourself now, Clare73.
As you are repeating your non-responses.

Non-responsive. . .again.

In the absence ([post=63164645]here[/post]) of an adequate explanation of the meaning of Ro 3:25-26 consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture (as done [post=63167342]here[/post]), you are in no position to assert that the Scriptures do not present penal substitutionary atonement.

That assertion is made in ignorance of the meaning of Ro 3:25-26, which presents penal substitutionary atonement.

So this is not about defending the Scriptures, this is about defending your theology, which you cannot show to be in agreement with the Scriptures.

Ergo: The "Protestant view" of the cross is not wrong, because it is the Scriptural view.

Q.E.D. . .again.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

pizza steak

Newbie
May 30, 2013
36
5
✟22,668.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am newly baptized and have just began my journey with and to God.

I have a question regarding this penal substitutionary atonement theology. Please take it as an innocent inquire, not an attempted undermining.

From what I've come to understand, PSA theology diverts from classic Catholic theology of atonement in that it depicts the death of Christ as a form of diverting the anger of God for our sin from us to Jesus. And so, rather than seeing the Cross as an offering of love by Jesus/God, it is seen as an offering that paid the price to divert justifable punishment from men to Jesus. Please correct me if I misunderstand.

So my question is about the implications of PSA. If Jesus and God are the same substance, and God directed his wrath at Jesus for bearing our sins, does that mean Jesus is not part of the Trinity? Is he "lesser" than God? Or does PSA not see the idea that God directed anger at himself as paradoxical?

Again, I'm asking innocently, because in reading this thread, there seems to be a lot of anger.
 
Reactions: Rev Randy
Upvote 0
Ridiculous. You just repeat yourself and that's why after trying to get through to you twice I stopped. You're projecting way too much on Rom 3:25, all based on a faulty pre-existing misunderstanding of the Biblical term "Atonement".

Your view cannot explain texts like Leviticus 12:6-7 where a woman has to sacrifice two animals after giving birth, making atonement, which makes no sense if this is about Penal Substitution since giving birth isn't a sin and certainly not deserving of the death penalty.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,798
1,917
✟983,482.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is all very good, but I asked earlier:


The “link” given in the OP is only against the idea of Penal Substitution and said: “…popularly called "Satisfaction," which will hopefully be covered in a future post.”


So can you explain your understanding of the: “Satisfaction theory of Atonement”?


I have no problem with what all you see as the problems with Penal Substitution, which is not exclusive to any one group.


Why is the satisfaction theory not also a substitution?
 
Upvote 0

Rev Randy

Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Aug 14, 2012
7,410
643
Florida,USA
✟32,653.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
One is takiing our punishment. The other is payment in full.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Folk can believe the Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) theory but to do so does raise questions about what sort of being God is and what kind of justice God represents.

In an earlier post I included some issues raised by PSA that have not really been answered by those who support this theory.


 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
*blind post*
Why are they mutually exclusive?
 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Precisely what do you mean by "they"?

Both ideas. Why does the fact that God the Father poured His wrath (placed our sins) on Jesus (God the Son), exclude the idea that Jesus's(God the Son) love was so great that He took that punishment for us? I'd say they work together perfectly. God cannot tolerate sin, and yet loved us with unfathomable love. He cannot, not punish sin, so who better to accept the punishment and be able to forgive us fully than God?
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Both ideas. Why does the fact that God the Father poured His wrath (placed our sins) on Jesus (God the Son)

Is that a fact?

I am not convinced that it is.
, exclude the idea that Jesus's(God the Son) love was so great that He took that punishment for us?

I am not so sure that "took the punishment for us" is exactly how it works. Especially if by that phrase you mean substituted for us.
I'd say they work together perfectly. God cannot tolerate sin, and yet loved us with unfathomable love. He cannot, not punish sin, so who better to accept the punishment and be able to forgive us fully than God?

It looks to me that your account of salvation is more about punishing sins and substituting the one to receive punishment than it is about opening the way for unrighteous people to be forgiven and empowering them to become righteous.
 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

A good deal of supposition, but nothing to refute what I said. However, in His sacrifice, Jesus tore the veil. (Mark 15:38) and we see in John 3:36 that whoever rejects Christ is still under God's wrath. So as you can see both are accomplished. I think anything else limits God. It either limits His righteousness, and His holiness, or it limits His love and grace.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private


Well, debate works this way.

The party arguing in favour of a claim has to prove it to be credible and, if possible, true.

The party arguing against the claim need only establish that no proof has been offered.

You're making some claims, specifically:
  1. God poured out his wrath against sin onto Jesus Christ on the cross.
  2. Jesus Christ took onto himself all the sins of all the people of the world.
  3. The punishment for all those sins was poured out onto Jesus Christ because he had really and truly become the guilty party fully deserving of the punishment for all the sins ever sinned in the world.

My reply is, show where scripture says these things.

Not where scripture says something that can be construed as possibly meaning it. You need to show scripture unambiguously teaching it.

If you can't then you have failed to prove your claims to be true.

I reckon you will not be able to do it.

I also reckon that alternative perspectives about the nature of the atonement have much to recommend them.

My earlier posts point to some alternatives and to some of the problems inherent in the perspective you are advocating.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Weren't there 2 of them in the Sanctuary of the Temple?

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1

TABERNACLE SHADOWS
OF
THE BETTER SACRIFICES


The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.



.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,055
7,501
North Carolina
✟342,885.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
We're not talking about the use of "atonement" in Lev 12:6-7.

We're talking about its use in Ro 3:25-26, where the NT writers used the Greek hilasterion, the word used for "Mercy Seat" in the Greek translation of the OT (Septuagint, LXX).

That is the meaning of Christ's sacrifice of atonement in Ro 3:25-26, perhaps to whose origin and meaning
from my post, following, you would like to respond.


"the punishment that brought us peace (with God) was upon him."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,142
591
✟37,499.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Ok, then by extension, show me the scriptures that say mass, that say lent, and that say pope. Simply because you do not like a point of view (with scripture basis and backing) doesn't mean you get to dismiss it out of hand. You see when one makes a claim, the other side must show proof that claim is incorrect, not simply say it is because they don't like it.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,055
7,501
North Carolina
✟342,885.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Folk can believe the Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) theory but to do so does raise questions about what sort of being God is and what kind of justice God represents.
That is simply human reason at work, measuring God by ourselves and expecting him to be like us, instead of taking him at the plain words of Ro 3:25-26, for which passage you have no explanation consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture (as shown [post=63164645]here[/post]).
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private

Okay, you have conceded that the Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory is not explicitly taught in scripture.

That sums up the matter between us.

QED.

As for the new matters you have raised.

Start a new thread for them and see how it goes.
 
Upvote 0