Why the Lord's Day is Saturday

[BobRyan]

For the sake of this thread I agree that:

1. Christ was resurrected on what the Bible calls week-day-1 which is our Sunday.

2. The term "Sabbath" as used in the NT to refer to someone in a church or synagogue service is always Saturday. Which is also called "the seventh day" in the Bible.

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So then - why is the term "Lord's day" a reference to Saturday?

The term "Lord's Day" is found once in the Bible -- in Rev 1 and it assigns no day of the week to the term.

This is unlike places like Ex 20:8-11 where the 7th day is the day of the week assigned to a specific name.

In addition in Isaiah 58:13 we find that "The Holy Day of the LORD" is the 7th day of the week. Almost all Bible scholars will admit that in context - Is 58:13 is specific to the 7th day of the week or at the very least includes it.

In Mark 2:27 we are told that Christ is "LORD" of that 7th day of the week - and almost all scholars will admit that the term in Mark 2:27 is specific to Saturday.

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There are some historic documents outside the Bible showing a trend that occurs over time - to call Sunday the Lord's day and giving various reasons for why that tradition came about over time.


1. Here is the Catholic Catechism on the Lord's Day connected to Saturday-

2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day."94


2. Here is an interesting statement from the book "The Faith Explained" - a commentary on the Catholic Catechism after Vatican-II that makes a frank and important observation.


( "The Faith Explained" - page 242-243.)
"we know that in the Old Testament it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord’s Day. That was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day..the early Christian church determined as the Lord’s Day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...the reason for changing the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord’s Day on the say-so of the catholic church



3. Here is Pope John Paul II - in "Dies Domini"

Dies Domini – pt 63

Dies Domini (May 31, 1998) | John Paul II

63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27).

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We see then that in a great many cases both those who observe Sunday and those who observe Saturday --- agree on one thing -- "The Lord's Day" as God gave it in the Bible - applied to Saturday.

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Your thoughts welcomed.

 

[BobRyan]

I expect a number of people will point to historic document beyond the first century and outside the Bible talking about a custom/tradition/practice that arose regarding Sunday and the term "Lord's day" and certainly I also agree that over time such traditions did emerge.

 

[JulieB67]

I don't believe the Lord's day refers to any day of the week. The Lord's day in Revelation is just another way of stating the day of the Lord/day of Christ which is ushered in at the 7th trump. John was in the spirit on that day. Our biggest clue is the description of Christ. It is the exact description that is in chapter 19 when he returns.


Revelation 1:14 "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire."

Revelation 1:15 "And his feet like unto fine , as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

Revelation 1:16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

Compare to this, same description.

Revelation 19:12 "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

He then is told to write about the past, present and future of that time frame -the Lord's day.

A certain day of the week was never referred to as the Lord's day in the Bible. It was always -the first day of the week, etc. Traditions of men have taken it to where it is today.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Between the time St. John of Patmos uses the term "Lord's Day" in the Revelation and St. Ignatius of Antioch uses "Lord's Day" in his letters is 10-15 years. (The Revelation was written sometime between 95 and 105 AD, probably closer to 95 AD during the end of Domitian's reign; Ignatius' letters were written between 105-115 AD during the reign of Trajan).

Which is more likely:

1. Everyone in the Church suddenly became an amnesiac and forgot that the Lord's Day is actually the Sabbath and started calling the first day of the week the Lord's Day?

2. The first day of the week was always known as the Lord's Day in the Church, and this was never applied to the Sabbath.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't believe the Lord's day refers to any day of the week. The Lord's day in Revelation is just another way of stating the day of the Lord/day of Christ which is ushered in at the 7th trump. John was in the spirit on that day. Our biggest clue is the description of Christ. It is the exact description that is in chapter 19 when he returns.


Revelation 1:14 "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire."

Revelation 1:15 "And his feet like unto fine , as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

Revelation 1:16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

Compare to this, same description.

Revelation 19:12 "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

He then is told to write about the past, present and future of that time frame -the Lord's day.

A certain day of the week was never referred to as the Lord's day in the Bible. It was always -the first day of the week, etc. Traditions of men have taken it to where it is today.

The Day of YHWH or the Day of YHWH's Vistiation began when our Lord was conceived and born of the Virgin Mary. See, for example, the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy concerning the Day of the LORD as described in the 2nd chapter of the Acts of the Apostles.

Both the first and second advents of Christ are included in the Visitation of YHWH, the "latter times" or "last days" which have been ongoing for the last two millennia, and will continue until the return of Christ on THE Last Day. When the Lord returns to judge the living and the dead.

St. John is not talking about this, he is saying it was the Lord's Day when he was in prayer and received his visions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I expect a number of people will point to historic document beyond the first century and outside the Bible talking about a custom/tradition/practice that arose regarding Sunday and the term "Lord's day" and certainly I also agree that over time such traditions did emerge.

Now Bob, be honest, such "traditions" did not merely emerge over time. But appear exceedingly early.

Since you are advocating a position that the term "Lord's Day" changed, the burden of proof rests on you to demonstrate this.

For your argument to have any merit, you need to demonstrate that this happened.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JulieB67]

St. John is not talking about this, he is saying it was the Lord's Day when he was in prayer and received his visions.

Again, John never referred to a day of the week as the Lord's day. The day he is talking about is this day,

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

 

[BobRyan]

Now Bob, be honest, such "traditions" did not merely emerge over time. But appear exceedingly early.

Early enough to show up in a first century set of documents like the NT text ??? -- apparently not.

 

[BobRyan]

The Day of YHWH or the Day of YHWH's Vistiation began when our Lord was conceived and born of the Virgin Mary. See, for example, the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy concerning the Day of the LORD as described in the 2nd chapter of the Acts of the Apostles.

Neither of those two sources (Acts, Joel) refer to "The Lord's day" and neither of them link it to a day of the week. (I notice you are not quoting anything in that post... is that intentional?)

By contrast we have Isaiah 58 where "the Holy Day of the Lord" is a term for the 7th day - Saturday.

 

[BobRyan]

Between the time St. John of Patmos uses the term "Lord's Day" in the Revelation and St. Ignatius of Antioch uses "Lord's Day" in his letters is 10-15 years. (The Revelation was written sometime between 95 and 105 AD, probably closer to 95 AD during the end of Domitian's reign; Ignatius' letters were written between 105-115 AD during the reign of Trajan).

Which is more likely:

1. Everyone in the Church suddenly became an amnesiac and forgot that the Lord's Day is actually the Sabbath and started calling the first day of the week the Lord's Day?

2. The first day of the week was always known as the Lord's Day in the Church, and this was never applied to the Sabbath.

-CryptoLutheran

Of the 15 supposed Ignatius letters more than half were found to be most certainly forged (as all scholars now agree) and the others rife with interpolation if historical. I assume you meant to quote something.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't believe the Lord's day refers to any day of the week. The Lord's day in Revelation is just another way of stating the day of the Lord/day of Christ which is ushered in at the 7th trump. John was in the spirit on that day. Our biggest clue is the description of Christ. It is the exact description that is in chapter 19 when he returns.

As you point out the coming of Christ is described in Rev 19 but that is not what we see in Rev 1.

 

[Sheila Davis]

I don't believe the Lord's day refers to any day of the week. The Lord's day in Revelation is just another way of stating the day of the Lord/day of Christ which is ushered in at the 7th trump. John was in the spirit on that day. Our biggest clue is the description of Christ. It is the exact description that is in chapter 19 when he returns.


Revelation 1:14 "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire."

Revelation 1:15 "And his feet like unto fine , as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

Revelation 1:16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

Compare to this, same description.

Revelation 19:12 "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

He then is told to write about the past, present and future of that time frame -the Lord's day.

A certain day of the week was never referred to as the Lord's day in the Bible. It was always -the first day of the week, etc. Traditions of men have taken it to where it is today.

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 58:13-14 - King James Version

The Lord said the Sabbath was his holy day.

From my understanding it was Constantine and the early Roman churches that changed the Lord's day from the seventh day to the first day. The first day of the week was never the Lord's day. The Lord himself never changed his holy day.

Sunday | day of week

From my studies not only did Christians meet on the first day they met on any day of the week that they possibly could in their homes or in the temple EVERY DAY - ACTS 2:46 at some point later they began to meet on the first day.

Meeting as a New Testament Church


Is the Day of the Lord / the Lord's Day - as written in the book of Revelation - going to happen on the Sabbath. No man knows what day or hour but it possibly could be on the seventh day of the week at any point in time.
God has already appointed " the day" - a certain hour - a certain minute - a certain second - when he will return and according to what is written in Isaiah 58:13 the Sabbath is the Lord's holy day. One should ask is the 7th day only for a day of rest - why command the people to remember it if was not an extremely important day - the day of the Lord / the Lord's day when he will execute the final judgment upon all who are against him.

 

[Freth]

Again, John never referred to a day of the week as the Lord's day. The day he is talking about is this day,

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

"The day of the Lord", as quoted previously from 1 Thessalonians 5:2, is referring to the second coming of Jesus—as seen at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and throughout chapter 5.

John is in the Spirit "on the Lord's day", seeing a vision.

Revelation 1:10-11 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.​

Q: What is the vision John is seeing?
A: Of the message to the seven churches, not of the second coming.

Q: On what day is John seeing the vision?
A: On the Lord's day, not on the day of the second coming of Jesus. John isn't alive and receiving a vision on the day of the second coming. The context clearly shows that John's vision is on a specific day in his time; the day when he received the vision.

What specific day did John observe as a holy day? The one found in the Ten Commandments.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​

Conclusion

• "The day of the Lord" is not synonymous with "the Lord's day".
• John was most likely seeing his vision on the Sabbath day.

 

[JulieB67]

John is in the Spirit "on the Lord's day", seeing a vision.

Again, context does matter yes. John never referred to day of the week as the Lord's day so why should we put it there now? There's only one day that's all throughout the Bible and that's the day of the Lord which is the Lord's day.

And he's in the "Spirit". He was not in his flesh body. Because flesh and blood will not be present at that time. He's actually in the Spirit on the Lord's day and told to write about the past, present and future of that time frame, the Lord's day.

 

[BobRyan]

From my studies not only did Christians meet on the first day they met on any day of the week that they possibly could in their homes or in the temple EVERY DAY - ACTS 2:46 at some point later they began to meet on the first day.
.

From my studies there is not one single NT text saying they met "every week day 1 for gospel preaching" - but we do have that they gathered "every Sabbath" for Gospel preaching in a religious service in Acts 18:4 that was for both gentiles and Jews.

Acts 2 does not say that they declared every day to be sanctified such that no secular work could be done on it. Only that during that Pentecost season they were meeting in homes and celebrating the Lord's Supper every day. IT did not mean that they declared every day of the week as a day for church and no secular activity.

It is hardly possible to argue the the early documents some have referenced for keeping Sunday as the "Lord's Day" were not doing that very thing - in fact they were declaring the entire day as one reserved for holy use and not for secular activity.

 

[BobRyan]

And he's in the "Spirit". He was not in his flesh body. Because flesh and blood will not be present at that time. He's actually in the Spirit on the Lord's day and told to write about the past, present and future of that time frame, the Lord's day.

That third option - that no week day is specifically a day of worship but every day is the same all week - and so "it just so happens" that all Christians meet on either Sunday or Saturday -- is certainly one option.

But what is certain is that in every case in the NT when a meeting is said to have happened on Sabbath -- it is not "every day of the week" - rather it is "Saturday" (or in some cases Friday evening)

Another thing that is certain -- instead of many references to "we meet on the day of the Lord", or "we meet on the Lord's day" there is not one.

And instead of many "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day" references in the NT - there is only one.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Of the 15 supposed Ignatius letters more than half were found to be most certainly forged (as all scholars now agree) and the others rife with interpolation if historical. I assume you meant to quote something.

Not going to work Bob. We know which of the letters are authentic, and we know what the authentic letters look like.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Early enough to show up in a first century set of documents like the NT text ??? -- apparently not.

Not relevant Bob. Two years after 1899 is 1901. Just because 1899 is in the 19th century and 1901 is in the 20th century doesn't change the fact that the difference is only two years.

The time elapsed between the Revelation and the letters of Ignatius doesn't change just because Ignatius wrote in the 2nd century rather than the 1st.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Again, John never referred to a day of the week as the Lord's day. The day he is talking about is this day,

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Which obviously refers to Christ's Parousia.

Had John said that he saw the Lord's day, it would still be semantically dissimilar to all other uses of "day of the Lord"; but at least one could conceive this was John's intent. But John says it was on the Lord's day when he received his visions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The Sabbath is made for man and he needs a day of rest and reflection. One man esteems one day above another and another sees all days alike. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

Entering into Jesus Christ is entering into that rest. The LORD could care less what day of the week you set aside to come together in His name and He looks at the heart. There is no way of knowing back to Adam what day of the week we are on for sure so this whole pretext of making Saturday a day of obligation and teaching Sunday as the mark of the beast is not good.