Why teach creationism in public school science classes?

[AV1611VET]

He may not blatantly insult people, but he's as passive-aggressive as it gets.

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[Split Rock]

"In 1994, in Peloza v. Capistrano School District, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a district court finding that a teacher's First Amendment right to free exercise of religion is not violated by a school district's requirement that evolution be taught in biology classes."

"In 2000, Minnesota State District Court Judge Bernard E. Borene dismissed the case of Rodney LeVake v Independent School District 656, et al. (Order Granting Defendants' Motion for Summary Judgment and Memorandum, Court File Nr. CX-99-793, District Court for the Third Judicial District of the State of Minnesota [2000]). High school biology teacher LeVake had argued for his right to teach "evidence both for and against the theory" of evolution. The school district considered the content of what he was teaching and concluded that it did not match the curriculum, which required the teaching of evolution."
- Ten Major Court Cases about Evolution and Creationism | NCSE
Which is being forced? You tell me. To me this is legislation, but maybe not to an evolutionist.

No it is not legislation, at least not to any one who knows what the word legislation means:

leg·is·la·tion

noun

1.the act or process of making a law or laws
2.the law or laws made
legislation - Definition of legislation at YourDictionary.com

You cited judicial descisions that delt with school board requirements, none of which deal with Laws. What I was referring to were the Laws passed by several states over the years (and many, many more proposed that didn't pass) either restricting the teaching of evolution or requiring the teaching of some form of creationism.

"My" narrow religious dogma? You're just throwing mud against a wall in the hopes that something will stick.. aren't you? (evolutionists simply cannot discuss without resorting to personal slander and name-calling, can they?).

Its funny that you people consider "dogma" to be derogatory. Is that why you use it here against us? All religions embrase dogma... these are religious principles held as sacred and are accepted without question. Examples of this in Christianity, would be the virginity of Mary and the ressurection and assention of Jesus. Now that you creationists like to use it against us, it has somehow become derogatory to you.. how ironic!

I think you attribute to me tremendously more power than I have. I do not have the power to force ANYONE to adhere to Hupomone's religious dogma.

When did I say anything about you personally forcing your dogma? As a group, creationists do indeed tend to force their dogma on others, but I do not attribute such capability to one person.

I find that reasoning with them is quite sufficient, which is why I argue for the freedom to present both positions, or neither. This country has been and is supposed to still be about freedom, and this includes the freedom for scientists to present their different theories without the government forcing them into silence.

Again, the only times the government has forced religious dogma on others has been in defense of creationism and in objection to teaching evolution. As far as scientists are concerned, the government says nothing about what we can or cannot discuss.

I disagree. It is obviously politicians and appointed judges who get to determine. Why do you think the liberal agenda for decades has been about appointing liberal judges and justices to office?

Oh great.. now you go into the "liberal agenda." More rhetoric. I thought we were discussing who determines what science is? That is determined by scientists, not "liberals." You disagree, huh? I suppose you tell your pilot how to fly the plane when you travel, or the doctor how to treat his patents, or the electrician how to wire a house? No? Then don't tell us what science is.

Objective scientists use the theory of creation, not evolutionism. But I will not be so dogmatic as to say that this is alone what should be taught. So, I will ask you the question: who is being dogmatic here, you or I?

Absolute nonsense. You clearly have no idea about what science is, or how scientists actually go about their profession. There is no dogma involved in teaching science in a science class. Creationism isn't science, and isn't used by any scientist to due actual research. Period. That is just reality, not dogma.

Other than that, I agree with you. Scientists get to determine what science is, both creation scientists and anti-creation scientists.

"Creation scientists" don't do actual research, or if they do it they don't use creationism to do their research. They are in any case, a slim minority. The minority does not determine anything.

It was a figure of speech to make a point, sorry you missed that.

No I didn't miss it, I recognized it as rhetoric, just as most of your posts have been about rhetoric here.

Yes, to most. Do you wish for me to find where you use different words to describe your disdain for creation? such as one time it's rhetoric, another time it is dogma?

I never said that creationism was rhetoric. I said it was religious dogma. Instead I claimed that you were posting rhetoric. Please don't misrepresent what I have posted here.

Let's have a semi-intelligent and peaceful discussion, please, if it's possible.

Fine, but you would have to hold up your end, which you are not doing now. How about you lead by example on this? I usually respond to others here in kind. If you are carrying out an intelligent and peaceful discussion, I will respond accordingly. If you post nothing but rhetoric, I will not be kind to you.

I'm sorry you continue to misunderstand that "evolutionary party" was a figure of speech and didn't refer to a political party.

I misunderstood nothing... I know rhetoric when I see it.

Your above response, in fact, your whole post here: isn't it rather like throwing mud against a wall in hopes that it will stick?

You don't seem to know what this idiom is supposed to mean. The term refers to throwing out many different insults and rhetoric, often times some in conflict with each other, in the hopes that one may score a point for you argument. I have not done that here... you have.

Have you offered anything in defense of your position except accusations and belittling comments meant to demean the opposition and make the Self feel better?

I asked the question in the O.P. I am not defending anything. You responded to my O.P. and you responded with nothing but rhetoric and sarcasm. I responded to that. What do I need to defend?

Can be but isn't. I would merely suggest that as an evolutionist, if you are, you are being inconsistent to your own world view of chance matter energy and naturalism by allowing a moralistic judgment on this.

My "world view" actually has little to do with the theory of evolution. All because creationism is stepped in you world view does not mean that evolution is stepped in mine. You see, I think quite differently than you do... this is something few creationists seem to understand about those of us who defend teaching evolution.

And we see how that worked out, didn't we. You define it as a theory, then by your own self-appointed authority and without supporting evidence to do so, you declare it a fact. Sounds rather like the Catholic Church of the dark ages, that told everyone at the end of the sword what to believe. Get off your high horse.

Science professionals define the venacular used in science. Just as engineers, lawyers, doctors, electricians, pilots, etc. all do for their profession. Sorry if you don't like that.

Who is "we"? Do you pretend to speak for all scientists, or do you have a mouse in your pocket?

I believe I speak for the majority of scientists on the points I have made. If you like, I can give you a list of scientific organizations that support the teaching of evolution. It is a long list.

I think their (aliens) reaction would be "given their assumption of an all-powerful all-knowing entity who was able to speak and create matter and energy, the theory of taking mud and forming and giving life to a creature is sound." I think they would reason, "On the one hand, we have a rather quaint story about a man being made out of matter and a woman being made from living tissue by this all-powerful entity,

"and on the other hand we have the theory that life spontaneously formed in a very violent and adverse primordial atmosphere and continued to become more complex and add more information and more information to its genome totally by millions of progressive accidents, without any designer behind it at all. Hmm. There is obviously a mixture of intelligent and non-intelligent life on this planet. "
.

You certainly have a strange fantasy concerning how aliens would respond to creationism. I suppose you assume they must all be creationists like you. Weird....

 

[Delphiki]

Over-used comic time!

 

[AV1611VET]

Over-used comic time!

I agree with this 100%.

I think it's an excellent reflection of the difference between Truth and facts.

The boy in the second panel should reply, "Who cares?"

 

[Hespera]

Over-used comic time!

is there a cartoon for this? Or just a face-palm?

Originally Posted by Hupomone10

Let's have a semi-intelligent and peaceful discussion, please, if it's possible.




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[realtruth101]

I think all Christians should remove their kids from public schools and start doing what the bible commanded, bring their children up in the way they should go, and stop letting a bunch of ungodly people raise your kids filling their heads with so much crap! its no wonder the youth of our country is so screwed up

 

[sandwiches]

I agree with this 100%.

I think it's an excellent reflection of the difference between Truth and facts.

The boy in the second panel should reply, "Who cares?"

Allyson Bergmann or Kent Schaible come to mind.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I think all Christians should remove their kids from public schools and start doing what the bible commanded, bring their children up in the way they should go, and stop letting a bunch of ungodly people raise your kids filling their heads with so much crap! its no wonder the youth of our country is so screwed up

Say hello to the decline of the United States. If you want to profit or benefit from science and technology, you have to invest in it. Kids are already so dumb when it comes to science. Making everybody go to private Christian schools or homeschool would just make us less competitive in the sciences. Is that what you want?

 

[Nathan Poe]

I agree with this 100%.

I think it's an excellent reflection of the difference between Truth and facts.

The boy in the second panel should reply, "Who cares?"

Right -- because facts have absolutely nothing to do with what the man in the second panel is selling.

 

[hollyda]

I agree with this 100%.

I think it's an excellent reflection of the difference between Truth and facts.

The boy in the second panel should reply, "Who cares?"

So you agree the facts are not on your side.

Why teach creationism in public school, then? School is for facts. People should come to "the truth" on their own.

 

[Delphiki]

I think all Christians should remove their kids from public schools and start doing what the bible commanded, bring their children up in the way they should go, and stop letting a bunch of ungodly people raise your kids filling their heads with so much crap! its no wonder the youth of our country is so screwed up

Maybe my Creationist Reservation idea might be worth looking into.

Completely off the grid from the rational thinkers and technology and everything else we owe to science. You can have your territory with all the things God and dogma gives you and nothing else and we'll take all the stuff science and reason gives us and nothing else. Sounds more than fair to me.


(edit: this website would be a ghost town)

 

[Hespera]

I think all Christians should remove their kids from public schools and start doing what the bible commanded, bring their children up in the way they should go, and stop letting a bunch of ungodly people raise your kids filling their heads with so much crap! its no wonder the youth of our country is so screwed up

What might be an example of this 'crap"?

 

[AV1611VET]

I think all Christians should remove their kids from public schools and start doing what the bible commanded, bring their children up in the way they should go, and stop letting a bunch of ungodly people raise your kids filling their heads with so much crap! its no wonder the youth of our country is so screwed up

Just vote NO at the polls.

 

[AV1611VET]

Say hello to the decline of the United States. If you want to profit or benefit from science and technology, you have to invest in it. Kids are already so dumb when it comes to science. Making everybody go to private Christian schools or homeschool would just make us less competitive in the sciences. Is that what you want?

I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again: Why is science competitive?

 

[Delphiki]

*Envisions a future nation where technology continues to advance, with the exception of a designated territory where people once again eat rancid foods, ride donkeys everywhere, wipe themselves with their bare hands and pray daily.*

 

[knowledgeIsPower]

I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again: Why is science competitive?

because those who build new technologies first reap the benefits. Have you never heard of a patent?

 

[Delphiki]

Oh yeah.. just remembered the Amish... But they don't quite reject ALL of science and worldly things. I dunno, do they have indoor plumbing?

 

[AV1611VET]

Right -- because facts have absolutely nothing to do with what the man in the second panel is selling.

The man in the second panel is hold the Book of Truth.

Facts should continue to be reinterpreted until they reach Truth, then facts become the Truth.

Remember Jesus' excellent lesson, using geology?

 

[Delphiki]

Remember Jesus' excellent lesson, using geology?

Someone standing on a tiny hill to give a sermon isn't geology.

 

[AV1611VET]

So you agree the facts are not on your side.

Correct.

Why teach creationism in public school, then?

Why not? creationism isn't fact, it's Truth -- historical Truth.

School is for facts.

Then we'll vote NO at the polls, as long as you guys insist on denying the Truth.

People should come to "the truth" on their own.

And as such games as D&D attest, most people left unattended will choose the darkness over the light.