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Why such a seeming contrast in NDE accounts where people saw hell... and heaven?

Alithis

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Seems to me that NDEs are before one gets placed one side of the gulf or the other.

makes sense to me ..
in ian McCormack testimony (see link in earlier post ) he says the one standing before him was light all light emanating from him and wave after wave of love .. and he moved to the side and behind him ian says he could see paradise ... and then the lord showed him his mother praying and he was moved with compassion for he knew it would break his mums heart should he never return and she didn't know he was saved so he desired to go back and tell her .. and the lord Jesus said not only her .. but shows him multitudes of people and he knew the lord wanted him to tell them also ..but

to your point .. he had not yet passed through that door (which is Jesus himself) he knew if he went through ..there was no coming back
 
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BlackSabb

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Well, it seems like everyone around here is happy to twist the scriptures claiming without any scriptural basis that "God take anyone anywhere as he jolly well pleases".

Fair enough. God can also save anyone anytime as he "jolly well pleases", even the unrepentant sinner-because He's God. I can say that He can jolly well have saved Hitler or Stalin for no other reason as He's God and He jolly well felt like it. Even if they didn't repent or recant on their death bed/bunker. Because He's God.

Moving right along. No one even bothered to reply to my hard question. Why should some people have the privileged position of believing and being saved because they had an NDE? Is it fair that the average Joe schmuck that doesn't believe and doesn't get saved and goes to Hell for eternity whilst a few other non believing schmucks get an NDE and convert accordingly?

Isn't the whole idea of Christianity about faith? About believing and not seeing? It's easy to believe, as Jesus said to Thomas, when you have seen. So NDE's violate the entire principal of believing and saving faith. It's easy to believe in God, Jesus, Heaven and Hell when you've had a supposed NDE. Not fair to all the other schmucks.
 
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tturt

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Was it fair that:
- Moses was the only one who saw the burning bush and talked with Yahweh (Exo 3)?
- Jacob had a dream about angels ascending and descending and called it the gate of heaven (Gen 28)?
- Saul had the Damascus Road experience? (Acts 9).
etc.
 
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dayhiker

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Seems to me if we are concern with twisting scripture then we wouldn't make dogmatic statements about NDEs when the Bible doesn't don't address this topic enough for us to develop a systematic doctrine.

An other aspect of ancient beliefs does have some baring:

They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." (Luke 24:37-39, NIV)

Its my understanding that people in those days thought that a person's spirit could hang around for 3 days and sometimes people say those spirits after people died. Heck, I've had people tell me that has happened to them. So its a contemporary experience as well.
So a person's soul and spirit has a transition period after they die. Those I believe are the stories people with NDEs are telling. Also we need to know that death in Bible days doesn't mean end but seperation. So death is the seperation of of our body from our soul and spirit. Our soul and spirit continue to experience our thoughts and to observe what is going on around us.
So when modern medicine is able to bring a person back to life it seems normal to me that people would have some memories of what they experienced in the time between when their body stopped functioning and when it started again.
 
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Alithis

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Well, it seems like everyone around here is happy to twist the scriptures claiming without any scriptural basis that "God take anyone anywhere as he jolly well pleases".

Fair enough. God can also save anyone anytime as he "jolly well pleases", even the unrepentant sinner-because He's God. I can say that He can jolly well have saved Hitler or Stalin for no other reason as He's God and He jolly well felt like it. Even if they didn't repent or recant on their death bed/bunker. Because He's God.

Moving right along. No one even bothered to reply to my hard question. Why should some people have the privileged position of believing and being saved because they had an NDE? Is it fair that the average Joe schmuck that doesn't believe and doesn't get saved and goes to Hell for eternity whilst a few other non believing schmucks get an NDE and convert accordingly?

Isn't the whole idea of Christianity about faith? About believing and not seeing? It's easy to believe, as Jesus said to Thomas, when you have seen. So NDE's violate the entire principal of believing and saving faith. It's easy to believe in God, Jesus, Heaven and Hell when you've had a supposed NDE. Not fair to all the other schmucks.
well,in ians testimony he states it was due (in answer to)his mother praying for him..
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
no twisting required ;)
 
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tturt

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posted: Its my understanding that people in those days thought that a person's spirit could hang around for 3 days

That's my understanding, also, including the Jewish people. Some think that's the reason Yeshua waited to go to Lazarus ("Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already." John 10:11).

Like the linen at the tomb "And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." John 20:7 It had a purpose to the folks who would look into the empty tomb.

He challenged folks back then and what we think.

dayhiker, the book you mentioned in post #31, are you referring to Dr. Maurice Rawlings? Seems I read a book of his and it stated that he got interested in nde's when a very young girl in her post-op checkup told him about her surgical procedure - you know, what was said by whom, the tools he used, where people stood, etc.

posted: Seems to me that NDEs are before one gets placed one side of the gulf or the other.

I agree that is what is in post #17. Resurrections happened so since those are true then some NDEs have to be authentic.
 
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DennisTate

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posted: Its my understanding that people in those days thought that a person's spirit could hang around for 3 days

That's my understanding, also, including the Jewish people. Some think that's the reason Yeshua waited to go to Lazarus ("Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already." John 10:11).

Like the linen at the tomb "And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." John 20:7 It had a purpose to the folks who would look into the empty tomb.

He challenged folks back then and what we think.

dayhiker, the book you mentioned in post #31, are you referring to Dr. Maurice Rawlings? Seems I read a book of his and it stated that he got interested in nde's when a very young girl in her post-op checkup told him about her surgical procedure - you know, what was said by whom, the tools he used, where people stood, etc.

posted: Seems to me that NDEs are before one gets placed one side of the gulf or the other.

I agree that is what is in post #17. Resurrections happened so since those are true then some NDEs have to be authentic.

Interesting!!!!

This could help to explain why it states the two witnesses rise after 3.5 days!!!
 
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DennisTate

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Well, it seems like everyone around here is happy to twist the scriptures claiming without any scriptural basis that "God take anyone anywhere as he jolly well pleases".

Fair enough. God can also save anyone anytime as he "jolly well pleases", even the unrepentant sinner-because He's God. I can say that He can jolly well have saved Hitler or Stalin for no other reason as He's God and He jolly well felt like it. Even if they didn't repent or recant on their death bed/bunker. Because He's God.

Moving right along. No one even bothered to reply to my hard question. Why should some people have the privileged position of believing and being saved because they had an NDE? Is it fair that the average Joe schmuck that doesn't believe and doesn't get saved and goes to Hell for eternity whilst a few other non believing schmucks get an NDE and convert accordingly?

Isn't the whole idea of Christianity about faith? About believing and not seeing? It's easy to believe, as Jesus said to Thomas, when you have seen. So NDE's violate the entire principal of believing and saving faith. It's easy to believe in God, Jesus, Heaven and Hell when you've had a supposed NDE. Not fair to all the other schmucks.

At this time I strongly suspect that time is not limited to being linear but has both branches and roots. Ezekiel 37 rather than being limited to being merely a one time event can occur again and again and again and again............ Our Creator being composed of fundamental energy would have no difficulty replicating a moment in what we would think of as the past.... and then spinning off other branches of time...... in order to save the lost!!!????

But... that type of thing is perhaps a little too positive... and when people are shown this sort of thing....... they are not necessarily allowed to explain it clearly......


II Corinthians 12:2-4:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
.....
.....
But... Paul sure did come close when he wrote Romans 11:32, 33!
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=11&t=KJV
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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...
She witnessed Jesus weeping as He overlooked multitudes of souls lost forever, a world that has rejected Him, a Church that is mostly unprepared for Him, a people that have stopped witnessing to the lost, and an entertainment industry that even lures children to satan. She witnessed many of our esteemed cultural icons
suffering in the Pit.Angelica was also shown how the Kingdom of Heaven is all wonderfully prepared and ready, an unimaginable glorious place, where no evil exists. Though Jesus is ONLY coming back for a Holy People, and many of God's children will NOT be ready on that day, and will be left behind in a world that will fall apart.
For those who want to know how to avoid hell, the plan of salvation is as easy as ABC...

Why does there seem to be such contrast between NDE accounts.....even the ones in which somebody has met with Messiah Jesus/Yehoshua?


Because most accounts are not of Truth....
 
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Messy

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Why does there seem to be such contrast between NDE accounts.....even the ones in which somebody has met with Messiah Jesus/Yehoshua?
I don't trust them all. I saw one from a girl who wasn't even dead or near dead and she saw heaven and hell, but I don't believe it was from God. She saw women in hell because they wore make up and God said He didn't want them to do that or color their hair, come on now, I put it off. Some are real good, like that one from that pastor with Reinhard Bonnke from raised from the dead, but I think you have to test them.
 
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DennisTate

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I don't trust them all. I saw one from a girl who wasn't even dead or near dead and she saw heaven and hell, but I don't believe it was from God. She saw women in hell because they wore make up and God said He didn't want them to do that or color their hair, come on now, I put it off. Some are real good, like that one from that pastor with Reinhard Bonnke from raised from the dead, but I think you have to test them.

One part of this question....... is that whatever we teach people that God is like....... is actually what we are like!!!!????

If we believe in our own mind that God would condemn somebody for using make up....... then that is still a part of our own nature......... that we need to work on!!!????

Another aspect of this question is branches of time.... time is not limited to being linear... and perhaps Ezekiel chapter 37 occurs again and again and again and again.......... in an attempt to lead formerly "lost souls" upward into the light/ love of God!!!????

http://www.christianforums.com/t7810772/
Bill Weise, 23 minutes in hell and many Ezekiel 37 events??!!
Back in 1965 or '66 when I was 6 or 7 years old I heard a hellfire and brimstone sermon by Dr. Billy Graham and was well prepared to become an atheist after hearing evolutionary theory taught in Grade 2.

Around '72 I heard Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong elaborate on the "soul sleep" theory and I became interested in the Bible again.

I had never been forced to go to church so did not even attend church until I did so voluntarily after listening to Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong for several years.

In 1990 I began to read NDE accounts and I was tossed into a pretty serious philosophical/theological crisis to find out that the "soul sleep" theory is almost certainly in error.

At this time I have concluded that Ezekiel 37 is not limited to being a one time event... but instead G-d is free to replicate moments in what we think of as the past.... spin off a new future much as Hollywood plays around with in many movies....... and so........ a fallen Bill Wiese from one branch of time..... can be shown himself in a previous branch of time...... and be inspired to become a powerful and dedicated evangelist...... in this branch of time??????!!!!!!!!!

.....
(page 2):

.....
....Yes...... but perhaps DMT.... allows the human mind to see other time lines....... all of which may soon be understood to be fulfillments of Ezekiel chapter 37!

Dr. Chaim Henry Tejman has written some on this capacity within the human mind and/or spirit and/or soul???!!!


Quantum physics proves that there IS an afterlife, claims scientist | Mail Online
Quantum physics proves that there IS an afterlife, claims scientist
Robert Lanza claims the theory of biocentrism says death is an illusion
He said life creates the universe, and not the other way round
This means space and time don't exist in the linear fashion we think it does
He uses the famous double-split experiment to illustrate his point
And if space and time aren't linear, then death can't exist in 'any real sense' either

... what I mean by this is that the vision... that was shown to Bill Wiese.... may have been him..... in another time line......previous to an Ezekiel 37 style resurrection........... and his seeing that vision of himself in a hellish state...... may have been in a sense real????!!!!

But.... we are perhaps in a post Ezekiel 37 time line..... in which Bill Wiese... this time around..... knows the God of Abraham and is working mightily to save souls!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Messy

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... what I mean by this is that the vision... that was shown to Bill Wiese.... may have been him..... in another time line......previous to an Ezekiel 37 style resurrection........... and his seeing that vision of himself in a hellish state...... may have been in a sense real????!!!!

But.... we are perhaps in a post Ezekiel 37 time line..... in which Bill Wiese... this time around..... knows the God of Abraham and is working mightily to save souls!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I think so. God showed Lester Sumrall a lot of people who went to hell and he saw them falling in hell and God said: this is what will happen if you don't want to preach the gospel to them, so it was just a warning and then he started to preach and he saved millions. I saw a testimony of a buddhist munk who was dead for 3 days and saw hell.
 
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woodpecker

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The bible clearly teaches that people can have out of body experiences, through death, through prayer, visions, dreams...God can do what He wants.

We test all things through scripture.

Those who claim supernatural experiences and are not Christian should be viewed with suspicion, for I believe an unbeliever will be allowed to be fooled by Satan.

When I was a drug addict I died, I rose above my body, I heard an awful sound coming for me, it was a demon, I started screaming at my body to wake up, I went back into my body....scared me so much, I was going to hell...I started seeking God.
 
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DennisTate

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The bible clearly teaches that people can have out of body experiences, through death, through prayer, visions, dreams...God can do what He wants.

We test all things through scripture.

Those who claim supernatural experiences and are not Christian should be viewed with suspicion, for I believe an unbeliever will be allowed to be fooled by Satan.

When I was a drug addict I died, I rose above my body, I heard an awful sound coming for me, it was a demon, I started screaming at my body to wake up, I went back into my body....scared me so much, I was going to hell...I started seeking God.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for telling us about this woodpecker!!!!!
 
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DennisTate

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Yes I think so. God showed Lester Sumrall a lot of people who went to hell and he saw them falling in hell and God said: this is what will happen if you don't want to preach the gospel to them, so it was just a warning and then he started to preach and he saved millions. I saw a testimony of a buddhist munk who was dead for 3 days and saw hell.

Yes.... it is a bit like God is the producer of a massive epic reality film...... we are the stars and we write our own script.......... Bob Jones was shown that it really is about learning to love.............. but I know that before 1990 I studied the Bible mostly to win arguments and partly to feel superior to others who I felt knew less!!!!?????


Bob Jones’ Testimony August 8, 1975 Death Experience 

So I looked at that line. It was so horrible and everyone when they came there, they recognized Him. Their eyes got big, and everyone that is going to hell has had a witness in one way or another that there is a God. And everyone of them willingly denied Him. For each 2 in the line that I was in, there was 98 in the other line.

I watched the Lord speak to people that were coming there. And He asked them only one question: “Did you learn to love?” He’s not going to ask you what you did. If you learn to love you are going to do that which is right. Did you learn to love? (3) He would ask them that question and they would say, Yes Lord and He would kiss them right on the lips and embrace them and the double doors of His heart would open and they would go right on in.
 
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DennisTate

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Because most accounts are not of Truth....

OK..... what about one account in six where the near death experiencer meets a deceased pet?

Do you think that animals also have a soul and can go to heaven?

In the Psalms it says that Messiah rides on a cherub.... in Revelation it states that Messiah rides on a white horse!

In "Heaven is for Real" Colton Burpo states that he saw lot of animals in heaven!
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Seek the Creator. turn to God always, every day. not to man to God, but straight to God by Faith in Jesus. men of the world are not trustworthy, religious especially are suspect.
Isaiah 29:24

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

24 Those whose spirits stray will come to understand,
and those who complain will learn their lesson.
 
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woodpecker

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Nowhere in scripture does it teach animals do not have souls. Redemption is for all Gods creation.

Genesis 9

8 Then God told Noah and his sons, 9 “I hereby confirm my covenant with you and your descendants, 10 and with all the animals that were on the boat with you—the birds, the livestock, and all the wild animals—every living creature on earth. 11 Yes, I am confirming my covenant with you. Never again will floodwaters kill all living creatures; never again will a flood destroy the earth.”

12 Then God said, “I am giving you a sign of my covenant with you and with all living creatures, for all generations to come. 13 I have placed my rainbow in the clouds. It is the sign of my covenant with you and with all the earth. 14 When I send clouds over the earth, the rainbow will appear in the clouds, 15 and I will remember my covenant with you and with all living creatures. Never again will the floodwaters destroy all life. 16 When I see the rainbow in the clouds, I will remember the eternal covenant between God and every living creature on earth.” 17 Then God said to Noah, “Yes, this rainbow is the sign of the covenant I am confirming with all the creatures on earth.”
 
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WalksWithChrist

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The bible clearly teaches that people can have out of body experiences, through death, through prayer, visions, dreams...God can do what He wants.

We test all things through scripture.

Those who claim supernatural experiences and are not Christian should be viewed with suspicion, for I believe an unbeliever will be allowed to be fooled by Satan.

When I was a drug addict I died, I rose above my body, I heard an awful sound coming for me, it was a demon, I started screaming at my body to wake up, I went back into my body....scared me so much, I was going to hell...I started seeking God.
That's a good testimony right there.
 
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