Nothing in Romans chapters 1-3 speaks of man being born a sinner.
Dear Butterball1,
You said:
Nothing in Romans chapters 1-3 speaks of man being born a sinner. Paul spends chapters 1 and 2 proving all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned yet NOWHERE ever says Jew or Gentiles were born sinners. Instead Paul mentions various sins Jews and Gentiles commited by which they were then made sinners.
You are right - there is no scripture that says man is "born a sinner" and I do not say that either. You need to re-read what I posted. Mankind was created spiritually "marred" and subject to "vanity". Because of this spiritual defect, we BECOME carnally minded and we BECOME sinners as a result. It happens very quickly to ALL mankind.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.
Because mankind is spiritually marred and subject to vanity, all the attributes of our carnal nature mentioned by Paul in Romans applies to all mankind. We are sinning machines.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
You said:
Therefore we are not born children of the devil but when man intellectually matures learning right from wrong, (Isaiah 7:15-16) and freely chooses to transgress God's law then man GOES out of the way, man BECOMES unprofitable, then becomes child of Satan.
I never said we are BORN children of the devil. I said
because we sin, we become children of the devil. Everyone who is "of this world" sins and therefore, become children of the devil.
Also, mankind does not FREELY choose to transgress God's Law because scripture says we were "made subject to vanity,
not willingly". God purposely created us in such a way so that we all sin when we are tempted by our carnal natures and/or by Satan. When mankind sins, we
do make a choice to sin BUT that choice is not a "free" choice.
The spiritual flaw within mankind was not a mistake by God. God wanted us to sin and experience evil.
Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has GIVEN to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Eve became carnally minded BEFORE she sinned. She expressed all three causes of sin that come from being carnally minded:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat...
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Sin doesn't cause us to be carnally minded. In fact, just the opposite is true - our carnal minds cause us to sin.
All mankind will experience evil. We are created spiritually flawed and because we are, we all become carnally minded. Because we are carnally minded, Satan can and does deceive the WHOLE world. After Christ calls us out from the world, Satan comes to us and plants His "tares" within each of us so that we become "wicked" for our Day of Evil.
Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Christ described the process this way:
Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation
The "evil spirits" represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain carnally minded and spiritually blind after being "called out" (Early Rain of the Spirit), we cannot replace our worldly false beliefs with God's truth. Our one "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT (the spirit of anti-christ). The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the
Man of Sin. This is when we experience our "Day of Evil" mentioned in Prov 16:4.
You said:
Since Paul says "none are righteous" and "none seek God", yet men are said to be righteous and men are commanded to seek God shows there is a fatal flaw with Calvinism's interpretation of the passage.
I do not ascribe to Calvinist teachings.
Only AFTER God calls us out from the world and gives us "gifts", is any man made "righteous" or have the ability to seek God. The Nation of Israel was "called out" and God did His work within those He chose. In our created, unbelieving state, "none are righteous" and "none seek God".
You said:
You post "Also, it makes perfect sense for God to command man to obey Him when He knows that it is not possible for us to do so in our created state." Yet such makes God un unjust, unfair ogre, it makes God's commands grievous when they are not, 1 John 5:3.
God knows that we can't obey Him in our created state but mankind DOES NOT KNOW THIS TRUTH. Our carnal nature gives man a Pride of Life that causes to us believe that we have the ability to be good, that we can "choose" to be good. For this reason, the Law was given to prove to mankind that we
cannot ever be good enough and in fact, we are quite evil. Because of this truth, mankind must be destroyed (spiritually) and be "born again" (spiritually) if we are to ever have a relationship with our Creator. For this purpose, God the Father sent Christ to mankind. His work of making this change within mankind is presently ongoing. During this age, Christ is restoring His chosen Elect to the Father (salvation). In the next age, He will do His work within the rest of mankind. Then all who died "in Adam" will be made alive "in Christ.
You said:
1 Cor 12:3 says NOTHING about some miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit miraculously imparting knowledge apart from the written word of the Holy Spirit.
Again, you misrepresent what I stated. What I said was that the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand and accept the written Word. The Word of God is written in the Spiritual language of Christ:
Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.
Truth is taught in bits and pieces - a little here and a little there and those pieces are inserted into scripture in ways that have nothing to do with context. Because of this, the pieces must be assembled much like a jigsaw puzzle before one can come away with a correct understanding.
God's truth is written this way so that mankind CANNOT understand the truth of God. Then to make it even more difficult to understand, the Word of God is written in "another tongue". Scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language. All this is done so that God's truth remains hidden from everyone except those whom Christ chooses to reveal it.
Christ said His words were for those with "ears that can hear" or "eyes that can see". These are "spiritual" eyes and ears that Christ gives His chosen Elect. Once a person receives these "eyes and ears", their Christian paradigm changes and scripture opens up. When this happens, context is
not that important.
Even Paul taught in this manner.
1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect)
: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Here is an example:
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Did Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, you will likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that
is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can
easily be proven to be FALSE. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?
Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.
In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
From this verse, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.
Here the symbol of the Sword represents the Word of God and the Word of God is Christ. Christ is teaching on salvation - when Christ comes to us, He destroys our Old Man (carnal nature) and then gives life to a New Man in Christ. This is being "born again".
To correctly understand scripture, it must be understood
spiritually. For this type of understanding to occur, we must first understand that the words used in scripture do not carry the same meaning
as taught by man’s wisdom (1Cor 2:13). Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We must compare spiritual with spiritual. We are to also keep in mind that “the sum of God’s Word is truth”.
So when can a believer understand God's Word?
In these Mark 8:15-21, Christ gives His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.
Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.
In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually blind.
In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.
You said:
What I have said over and over and the Bible teaches over and over is that man must obey the will of God (Hebrews 5:9) in order to be saved and not one time anywhere in the Bible is man's obedience said to earn God's free gfit. Faith onlyists refuse to acknowledge the simple everyday fact and reality that free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and meeting the precondition upon a gift does not in anyway earn/merit the free gift. This is why you cannot show out of all the Bible examples of men obeying God's will that their obeidnce is said to have earned God's gift.
What is the difference between "obeying the will of God" and "man's obedience". Aren't those the same thing???
No where in scripture does it say "
free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and meeting the precondition upon a gift does not in anyway earn/merit the free gift". This is a teaching of man. Here is what scripture teaches:
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Because all mankind in their created spiritual condition CANNOT seek after God or understand His Word, it is necessary for Christ to come to us first. When He comes, it is without our invitation (He comes "suddenly" to His temple). At that time, He does His work within us and gives us His spiritual gifts (Faith and the earnest of the Spirit). This event is called the Early Rain when an unbeliever is Called Out from the World. This is how the church is created by Christ.
ONLY AFTER Christ gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit can we call Jesus "Lord". Before that time, we cannot make a "choice" to accept Him or to even seek to know Him. But once Christ puts the Spirit in our hearts, we will no longer call Jesus accursed - we will ONLY call Him "Lord".
Paul is the pattern. Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road and gave Paul the Holy Spirit. Christ did not ask Paul for permission. Paul was not even aware that Christ had given him the Spirit. And as with all others who are Called Out, Christ's gift of the Spirit cannot be rejected either.
We know that the Spirit was within Paul because Paul called Jesus "Lord" and Paul became obedient to Christ (what will you have me do?).
Most Christians probably aren't aware of when they received the Spirit either. They just know that they made a "decision" to accept Christ. What they don't know is that the Spirit was already within them before they made that decision. Without the Spirit, they could not seek after Christ or make a decision to call Him "Lord". The "decision" is the evidence that Christ had already come to them and did His work within them. What I have just stated is how Christ saves us. It is 100% His work and is without any "works" or "decisions" on our part.
You said:
For they were just meeting a precondition God placed upon His free gift.
This belief is a "work" which Christ rejects and which causes a believer to "fall away".
Joe