Why Sola Fide is true mystical theology

[HatGuy]

I think that the doctrine of Sola Fide (faith alone) - or otherwise, justification by faith alone - is honestly one of the most, if not the most, profound doctrine in the Christian church. (So much so, that I would get a tattoo of it, if I wanted a tattoo.)

I think, however, that it doesn't get much airtime as a 'mystical' doctrine when, in fact, it's more of a mystical doctrine than doctrines that are considered 'mystical'.

Ironically, the very doctrine that is often used to shoot down mysticism and pietism (faith alone) is actually the very doctrine that upholds both true mysticism and pietism; and the very doctrines and ideas used to uphold mysticism and pietism (most mystical theology) are the very doctrines and ideas that take away from an experiential and holy life with God. How so? Because most mystical theology is full of techniques to bring you closer to God. They wax lyrical about love and the growth of love towards God in contemplation, but put fear in the heart of a person because if this love is betrayed in some way - if sin somehow gets in - then the person looses their connection with God and must practice techniques and works to get it back.

But Sola Fide means I step into my connection with God through simple trust, regardless of my sin and my sin struggles. That for me brings together all that the desert fathers and the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints were looking for - or were trying to teach (the best of them, not all of them) into an accessible reality.

I honestly think Sola Fide should unite the Church. The trouble is, I don't think it's understood correctly. Not even Protestants, I think, have truly grasped what the doctrine was originally about, particularly in the way Luther would speak and teach on it.

"For it is faith in Christ that makes me live in him, and move in him, and act in him, in the same way as a healing ointment acts upon a sick body; and I am hereby not only made one flesh and one body with Christ, but have an all-intimate, ineffable, exchanging of my sin for his righteousness." - Martin Luther, commenting on Psalm 9:14.

Would love to hear comments and thoughts on this line of thinking.

 

[Halbhh]

I think that the doctrine of Sola Fide (faith alone) - or otherwise, justification by faith alone - is honestly one of the most, if not the most, profound doctrine in the Christian church. (So much so, that I would get a tattoo of it, if I wanted a tattoo.)

I think, however, that it doesn't get much airtime as a 'mystical' doctrine when, in fact, it's more of a mystical doctrine than doctrines that are considered 'mystical'.

Ironically, the very doctrine that is often used to shoot down mysticism and pietism (faith alone) is actually the very doctrine that upholds both true mysticism and pietism; and the very doctrines and ideas used to uphold mysticism and pietism (most mystical theology) are the very doctrines and ideas that take away from an experiential and holy life with God. How so? Because most mystical theology is full of techniques to bring you closer to God. They wax lyrical about love and the growth of love towards God in contemplation, but put fear in the heart of a person because if this love is betrayed in some way - if sin somehow gets in - then the person looses their connection with God and must practice techniques and works to get it back.

But Sola Fide means I step into my connection with God through simple trust, regardless of my sin and my sin struggles. That for me brings together all that the desert fathers and the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints were looking for - or were trying to teach (the best of them, not all of them) into an accessible reality.

I honestly think Sola Fide should unite the Church. The trouble is, I don't think it's understood correctly. Not even Protestants, I think, have truly grasped what the doctrine was originally about, particularly in the way Luther would speak and teach on it.

"For it is faith in Christ that makes me live in him, and move in him, and act in him, in the same way as a healing ointment acts upon a sick body; and I am hereby not only made one flesh and one body with Christ, but have an all-intimate, ineffable, exchanging of my sin for his righteousness." - Martin Luther, commenting on Psalm 9:14.

Would love to hear comments and thoughts on this line of thinking.

The most wonderful and amazing gift. Our words often fail to describe how profound it is, but the inspired Word can help --

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh a and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Ephesians 2 NIV

Hallelujah!

And if we believe, then we will "do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do".

How?

This way:

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes a so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other."

John 15 NIV

 

[Halbhh]

They wax lyrical about love and the growth of love towards God in contemplation, but put fear in the heart of a person because if this love is betrayed in some way - if sin somehow gets in - then the person looses their connection with God and must practice techniques and works to get it back

I haven't encountered someone saying that, but I have encountered many who feel guilty, and who don't realize what we are to do when we sin, by the word of God:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

1 John 1, 2 NIV
---------

Everyone stumbles into sin at times. Peter did infamously even after being filled with the Holy Spirit, as we learn in Galatians chapter 2.

But God is just and merciful to forgive when we confess our wrongs (and thus repent).

It's Amazing Grace. We can't earn it, and it's a gift beyond measure.

If people hear and understand this repeating of the basic rule of the Bible -- that God is merciful to forgive those that confess and turn from their sins -- then they can stop condemning themselves when they do wrong, and begin confessing in their heart to God, as they must.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think that the doctrine of Sola Fide (faith alone) - or otherwise, justification by faith alone - is honestly one of the most, if not the most, profound doctrine in the Christian church. (So much so, that I would get a tattoo of it, if I wanted a tattoo.)

I think, however, that it doesn't get much airtime as a 'mystical' doctrine when, in fact, it's more of a mystical doctrine than doctrines that are considered 'mystical'.

Ironically, the very doctrine that is often used to shoot down mysticism and pietism (faith alone) is actually the very doctrine that upholds both true mysticism and pietism; and the very doctrines and ideas used to uphold mysticism and pietism (most mystical theology) are the very doctrines and ideas that take away from an experiential and holy life with God. How so? Because most mystical theology is full of techniques to bring you closer to God. They wax lyrical about love and the growth of love towards God in contemplation, but put fear in the heart of a person because if this love is betrayed in some way - if sin somehow gets in - then the person looses their connection with God and must practice techniques and works to get it back.

But Sola Fide means I step into my connection with God through simple trust, regardless of my sin and my sin struggles. That for me brings together all that the desert fathers and the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints were looking for - or were trying to teach (the best of them, not all of them) into an accessible reality.

I honestly think Sola Fide should unite the Church. The trouble is, I don't think it's understood correctly. Not even Protestants, I think, have truly grasped what the doctrine was originally about, particularly in the way Luther would speak and teach on it.

"For it is faith in Christ that makes me live in him, and move in him, and act in him, in the same way as a healing ointment acts upon a sick body; and I am hereby not only made one flesh and one body with Christ, but have an all-intimate, ineffable, exchanging of my sin for his righteousness." - Martin Luther, commenting on Psalm 9:14.

Would love to hear comments and thoughts on this line of thinking.

It's ironic that you say this, because Luther was steeped in German mysticism, particularly the Rhineland mystics like Tauler and Ekchart. That's where Protestants get the focus on subjectivity from. And the doctrine of penal substitution, popular among evangelicals, simply grew out of medieval bridal mysticism.

This might be useful reading to understand Luther's background in mysticism, since he translated it himself from Latin:

http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Theologia Germanica.pdf

 

[Silverback]

I think that the doctrine of Sola Fide (faith alone) - or otherwise, justification by faith alone - is honestly one of the most, if not the most, profound doctrine in the Christian church. (So much so, that I would get a tattoo of it, if I wanted a tattoo.)

I think, however, that it doesn't get much airtime as a 'mystical' doctrine when, in fact, it's more of a mystical doctrine than doctrines that are considered 'mystical'.

Ironically, the very doctrine that is often used to shoot down mysticism and pietism (faith alone) is actually the very doctrine that upholds both true mysticism and pietism; and the very doctrines and ideas used to uphold mysticism and pietism (most mystical theology) are the very doctrines and ideas that take away from an experiential and holy life with God. How so? Because most mystical theology is full of techniques to bring you closer to God. They wax lyrical about love and the growth of love towards God in contemplation, but put fear in the heart of a person because if this love is betrayed in some way - if sin somehow gets in - then the person looses their connection with God and must practice techniques and works to get it back.

But Sola Fide means I step into my connection with God through simple trust, regardless of my sin and my sin struggles. That for me brings together all that the desert fathers and the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints were looking for - or were trying to teach (the best of them, not all of them) into an accessible reality.

I honestly think Sola Fide should unite the Church. The trouble is, I don't think it's understood correctly. Not even Protestants, I think, have truly grasped what the doctrine was originally about, particularly in the way Luther would speak and teach on it.

"For it is faith in Christ that makes me live in him, and move in him, and act in him, in the same way as a healing ointment acts upon a sick body; and I am hereby not only made one flesh and one body with Christ, but have an all-intimate, ineffable, exchanging of my sin for his righteousness." - Martin Luther, commenting on Psalm 9:14.

Would love to hear comments and thoughts on this line of thinking.

Get the tatoo, I have 23 of them, no regrets.

 

[eleos1954]

I think that the doctrine of Sola Fide (faith alone) - or otherwise, justification by faith alone - is honestly one of the most, if not the most, profound doctrine in the Christian church. (So much so, that I would get a tattoo of it, if I wanted a tattoo.)

I think, however, that it doesn't get much airtime as a 'mystical' doctrine when, in fact, it's more of a mystical doctrine than doctrines that are considered 'mystical'.

Ironically, the very doctrine that is often used to shoot down mysticism and pietism (faith alone) is actually the very doctrine that upholds both true mysticism and pietism; and the very doctrines and ideas used to uphold mysticism and pietism (most mystical theology) are the very doctrines and ideas that take away from an experiential and holy life with God. How so? Because most mystical theology is full of techniques to bring you closer to God. They wax lyrical about love and the growth of love towards God in contemplation, but put fear in the heart of a person because if this love is betrayed in some way - if sin somehow gets in - then the person looses their connection with God and must practice techniques and works to get it back.

But Sola Fide means I step into my connection with God through simple trust, regardless of my sin and my sin struggles. That for me brings together all that the desert fathers and the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints were looking for - or were trying to teach (the best of them, not all of them) into an accessible reality.

I honestly think Sola Fide should unite the Church. The trouble is, I don't think it's understood correctly. Not even Protestants, I think, have truly grasped what the doctrine was originally about, particularly in the way Luther would speak and teach on it.

"For it is faith in Christ that makes me live in him, and move in him, and act in him, in the same way as a healing ointment acts upon a sick body; and I am hereby not only made one flesh and one body with Christ, but have an all-intimate, ineffable, exchanging of my sin for his righteousness." - Martin Luther, commenting on Psalm 9:14.

Would love to hear comments and thoughts on this line of thinking.

Hebrews 12

King James Bible
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[NnamAries]

Quite persuasive it doesn't seem well rounded.

 

[1213]

I think that the doctrine of Sola Fide (faith alone)... ...The trouble is, I don't think it's understood correctly. Not even Protestants, I think, have truly grasped what the doctrine was originally about, particularly in the way Luther would speak and teach on it.....

Indeed, faith is important. Also, because it is said:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

Faith is important, but I think the problem is, do people understand what it means. I have understood faith means person is faithful, loyal to God. Reason why I think so is:

By faith, Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had testimony given to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness with respect to his gifts; and through it he, being dead, still speaks. By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn't see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God. Without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to him, for he who comes to God must believe that he exists, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him. By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb. 11:4-7

The whole Hebrews 11 is good about what it means to be faithful. All those examples show how the people were loyal to God and did what was needed. They were not like this:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat. 7:21

If person has faith, it comes visible in actions.

 

[ripple the car]

While Sola Fidé is embraced by Protestants, it is not embraced by the world's Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, and even by some just-a-Christian Christians.

It is an important idea historically. But that does not make it universally held. One does not have to accept Sola Fidé to be a Christian. I do hope that some of our posters will be sensitive to this; I see a lot of posts, threads, and links that insinuate that Catholic and Orthodox Christians are not Christians.

I hope that CF will continue to be a place where Christians of all backgrounds are welcome, and where though we may disagree, we can still look on one another kindly as Christians, and learn from each other.

 

[icxn]

...Because most mystical theology is full of techniques to bring you closer to God. They wax lyrical about love and the growth of love towards God in contemplation, but put fear in the heart of a person because if this love is betrayed in some way - if sin somehow gets in - then the person looses their connection with God and must practice techniques and works to get it back.

It's easy to have feelings of despair when reading the lives of the Desert Fathers. They labored so much to cleanse their heart from any trace of sinful inclination that compared to them, our cursory reading of scripture, our distracted prayers and occasional fulfillment of God's commandments seem nothing short of indifference. And then there are those 'innocent' pleasures that we so much love, but are nonetheless detrimental to our spiritual development, that it is easier to attribute sourness to the techniques and works of repentance, than to admit our laziness... very much like the proverbial fox and the grapes.

The psychotic fear that one lost their connection with God when they sin is from the devil and most certainly not what the Orthodox Saints teach. If you pay attention to your thoughts before falling into sin, you will find him (the devil) portraying God as very merciful and forgiving and therefore indulging this or that sinful passion is of no consequence. After a fall on the other hand he changes the tune, making God an inexorable judge exacting punishment for every transgression. If we are wise we should do the opposite. Use the fear of the Lord, which scripture calls the beginning of wisdom (mystical theology), to crucify the will of our flesh (LXX Psalms 119:120)* thus avoiding sin and in the unfortunate case that we do fall into sin, resort to God's mercy and Christ the hope of our salvation to lift us up again.

________
* Nail my flesh with thy fear; for I am afraid of thy judgments.

 

[FireDragon76]

While Sola Fidé is embraced by Protestants, it is not embraced by the world's Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, and even by some just-a-Christian Christians.

It is an important idea historically. But that does not make it universally held. One does not have to accept Sola Fidé to be a Christian. I do hope that some of our posters will be sensitive to this; I see a lot of posts, threads, and links that insinuate that Catholic and Orthodox Christians are not Christians.

I hope that CF will continue to be a place where Christians of all backgrounds are welcome, and where though we may disagree, we can still look on one another kindly as Christians, and learn from each other.

Protestants don't necessarily believe people are saved by believing in justification by faith alone. That seems to confuse alot of people. It's true that some Presbyterians and Baptists take a more firm stance on this issue, seeing the Church as being more confined to just Evangelicalism (some won't even recognize Catholic baptism as valid), but they don't account for all Protestant thought on this issue.

In our minds its akin to a doctrinal development, albeit a necessary one for the health of the Church. And just like the Catholics like to see that sort of stuff in the early Church, so do we. The early Church's issues were not our issues, so of course justification was not on their minds alot, and they did not always speak clearly about it.


Here's a video by Pr. Jordan Cooper on sola fide:

 

[FireDragon76]

Even some Catholic mystics articulate something Protestant in tone, at times. Take the words of St. Therese of Lisieux,

In the evening of this life, I shall appear before You with empty hands, for I do not ask You, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is stained in Your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in Your own Justice and to receive from Your Love the eternal possession of Yourself.

What's interesting about St. Therese is that her spirituality is focused on her own subjectivity and inability so acutely. It many ways its like Luther's.

 

[Silverback]

Indeed, faith is important. Also, because it is said:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

Faith is important, but I think the problem is, do people understand what it means. I have understood faith means person is faithful, loyal to God. Reason why I think so is:

By faith, Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had testimony given to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness with respect to his gifts; and through it he, being dead, still speaks. By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn't see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God. Without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to him, for he who comes to God must believe that he exists, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him. By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb. 11:4-7

The whole Hebrews 11 is good about what it means to be faithful. All those examples show how the people were loyal to God and did what was needed. They were not like this:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat. 7:21

If person has faith, it comes visible in actions.

We would say no cheap grace, but those fruits of the spirit do not justify us before God, that only comes by God's grace, for Christ sake through faith, when we believe that our sins are freely forgiven because of Christ sacrifice, and we fully trust in his promises of salvation, and eternal life.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Galatians 2:16 and Sola Fide

"works of the Law" = Mosaic OT OC Leviticus commandments

NOT the same as "good works" = NT commandments of Christ​

 

[HatGuy]

Galatians 2:16 and Sola Fide

"works of the Law" = Mosaic OT OC Leviticus commandments

NOT the same as "good works" = NT commandments of Christ​

that's not the whole story though.

For example, Paul takes other sorts of "law" to task in Colossians 2.

"2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elemental spirits of the world, why do you submit to them as though you lived in the world? 2:21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” 2:22 These are all destined to perish with use, founded as they are on human commands and teachings. 2:23 Even though they have the appearance of wisdom with their self-imposed worship and false humility achieved by an unsparing treatment of the body – a wisdom with no true value – they in reality result in fleshly indulgence."

The Jewish ceremonial law serves as an example that no law, Jewish or otherwise, saves. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision carries any weight – the only thing that matters is faith working through love. (Gal 5:6).

 

[Erik Nelson]

...the only thing that matters is faith working through love. (Gal 5:6).

= James 2:17

 

[HatGuy]

= James 2:17

Sure, the doctrine of "faith alone" has always taught that love follows true faith in God. Faith is what energises the love. Without faith, love is dead. Without love, faith is dead.

 

[timewerx]

Would love to hear comments and thoughts on this line of thinking.

I used to dabble with the Occult thus, I'm familiar with some of the concepts of the Occult.

And yes, you are right to observe it is a mystical teaching.

However, it doesn't end there. In fact, mystical teachings also exist in the Bible, particularly with Pauline teachings.

I'm NOT saying the Bible is corrupted. What I will say however is NOT ALL mystical teachings are evil. The Mystical teachings in the Bible are not evil. Christians can misinterpret it however so treat those teachings with caution and discernment.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Sure, the doctrine of "faith alone" has always taught that love follows true faith in God. Faith is what energises the love. Without faith, love is dead. Without love, faith is dead.

synergy, two-way street

 

[ralfyman]

FWIW, Jesus gave two commandments.