Why Should Women not be Permitted to go Topless in Public?

[Butterfly99]

So it's just a theoretical problem.

I know literally zero women who have expressed a desire to go topless in public or who have complained that men can do so without legal consequences.

Nope, it's not just a theoretical problem. Not to be rude but for real I don't understand why you'd think that just cause you don't know any women who have a desire to go topless in public that there aren't any. Cause I mean there's a lot of women in this world you don't know. Most who want to be able to do that only want to in the same places where it's OK for men to be topless, like @ the beach. I think the attitudes that ppl have about this affect other stuff, like women breastfeeding in public. Don't you think it's weird that women are the ones who have an actual biological reason to be topless in public at times but men do not, yet it's considered criminal for women to be topless & hunky dory for men to be? I think a lot of our customs & laws were set by men & that they don't really make all that much sense. Cause like I've said, the male topless chest can be every bit as sexual to gay men & to straight women as boobs are to straight men.

I think it's wrong that a teen girl can get arrested for taking a pic of herself topless but a teen boy can do the exact same thing & have not have the same consequences.

 

[Armoured]

1 Timothy 2:9

Modest women in Christian communities don't desire to go topless.

A woman who wants to go topless would not be interested in modesty.

Where is it written that "modesty" = covered breasts?

I mean, I gotta say, I can think of a tonne of extremely immodest situations I've observed where the participants were fully clothed, and likewise a number of barebreasted yet fully chaste ones.

 

[Darkhorse]

So it's just a theoretical problem.

I know literally zero women who have expressed a desire to go topless in public or who have complained that men can do so without legal consequences.

Actually, there are at least 3 organizations which exist only to work for male-female equality in the chest-baring arena. I could post their links, but...that would probably be a rule violation!

 

[Armoured]

So it's just a theoretical problem.

I know literally zero women who have expressed a desire to go topless in public or who have complained that men can do so without legal consequences.

So, because you personally don't know anyone who has expressed this desire, it's not a problem?

I don't personally know lots of people from disadvantaged groups. That doesn't mean they don't exist, or that they're complaints are invalid.

 

[Tallguy88]

Nope, it's not just a theoretical problem. Not to be rude but for real I don't understand why you'd think that just cause you don't know any women who have a desire to go topless in public that there aren't any. Cause I mean there's a lot of women in this world you don't know. Most who want to be able to do that only want to in the same places where it's OK for men to be topless, like @ the beach. I think the attitudes that ppl have about this affect other stuff, like women breastfeeding in public. Don't you think it's weird that women are the ones who have an actual biological reason to be topless in public at times but men do not, yet it's considered criminal for women to be topless & hunky dory for men to be? I think a lot of our customs & laws were set by men & that they don't really make all that much sense. Cause like I've said, the male topless chest can be every bit as sexual to gay men & to straight women as boobs are to straight men.

I think it's wrong that a teen girl can get arrested for taking a pic of herself topless but a teen boy can do the exact same thing & have not have the same consequences.

Breastfeeding is generally considered an exception to indecency laws, and is often specifically exempt.

As for the laws, you'll want to contact your state legislator about changing them.

 

[Tallguy88]

Where is it written that "modesty" = covered breasts?

I mean, I gotta say, I can think of a tonne of extremely immodest situations I've observed where the participants were fully clothed, and likewise a number of barebreasted yet fully chaste ones.

Modesty and chastity are not the same thing, though they are related.

 

[Tallguy88]

So, because you personally don't know anyone who has expressed this desire, it's not a problem?

I don't personally know lots of people from disadvantaged groups. That doesn't mean they don't exist, or that they're complaints are invalid.

What complaints? So far, it's mostly men who are wanting female toplessness to be a thing.

 

[Butterfly99]

Breastfeeding is generally considered an exception to indecency laws, and is often specifically exempt.

As for the laws, you'll want to contact your state legislator about changing them.

Well what I wrote was that attitudes about women being topless affect attitudes about women breastfeeding in public, not that it's illegal to breastfeed publicly in America. There was a thread about this I read here not too long ago. Some ppl were saying that women should breastfeed their babies from on top of a toilet where nobody else can see them when the baby gets hungry out in public, so that men who are looking on won't be lustful at the sight of bare boobs. They quoted verses about how it's sinful to cause others to lust. No, really. I don't think they'd have that attitude if there wasn't this puritanical attitude about women being topless. & again most women who are wanting for it to be legal to be topless only want that in places where men have long been topless.

This is a discussion thread so I'm just interested in discussing it, not writing to my state legislator. Do YOU think it's fair that teen girls can be arrested, put on sex offender lists for making child porn, be expelled from school or be banned from here, be bullied, all for uploading a pic of themselves topless, but boys can do the exact same thing & nobody blinks an eye?

 

[Tallguy88]

Well what I wrote was that attitudes about women being topless affect attitudes about women breastfeeding in public, not that it's illegal to breastfeed publicly in America. There was a thread about this I read here not too long ago. Some ppl were saying that women should breastfeed their babies from on top of a toilet where nobody else can see them when the baby gets hungry out in public, so that men who are looking on won't be lustful at the sight of bare boobs. They quoted verses about how it's sinful to cause others to lust. No, really. I don't think they'd have that attitude if there wasn't this puritanical attitude about women being topless. & again most women who are wanting for it to be legal to be topless only want that in places where men have long been topless.

This is a discussion thread so I'm just interested in discussing it, not writing to my state legislator. Do YOU think it's fair that teen girls can be arrested, put on sex offender lists for making child porn, be expelled from school or be banned from here, be bullied, all for uploading a pic of themselves topless, but boys can do the exact same thing & nobody blinks an eye?

It is a sin to cause others to sin. St. Paul tells us not to cause our weaker brother to stumble. So if you know breastfeeding in public will cause scandal, it may be best to do it in a more private area if such is available.

I hate prosecutors. So that will tell you how I feel about how they do teen girls (and boys). But the law is the law. Unfair as it is, I would advise you to follow it. If you break the law, the deck is stacked against you being able to fight the charges.

 

[Armoured]

Modesty and chastity are not the same thing, though they are related.

Fine, substitute "modesty" if you like. My point stands. If you can't see breasts without giggling like a primary schooler and automatically thinking "sex" I suggest it's not the breasts at fault. (generic you)

 

[Armoured]

It is a sin to cause others to sin.

Ah, so the Muslims are right to demand women wear the chador, and the men need take no accountability of their own lustful natures? Good to know.

 

[Armoured]

What complaints? So far, it's mostly men who are wanting female toplessness to be a thing.

Aside from all the women making the complaint, obviously.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

Does the international "Naked Bike Ride" get stopped in places where topless is not allowed?

That depends but I know of several places where it is let be.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Aren't there any women here who want to argue for female toplessness? So far, it's all men arguing what women should do. I'd like some female opinions on the issue.

So would I. Though I'm still baffled by your view. If the "problem" with female toplessness is that there are cultural pressures (real or imagined) not to go topless, that isn't a reason for opposing toplessness. Not in any rational universe, anyway.

It may be a reason to reassure women that they won't be judged harshly for going topless. The "problem" is all of the people who are anti-toplessness. And that is the very issue in question: should Americans stop opposing the public toplessness of women?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Murby]

It says modest apparel.

Apparel specifically includes clothing according to any dictionary.

Jewelry is considered accessories.

And braided hair is considered adornment.

This scripture includes all aspects of a modest appearance.

So the passage you quoted is talking about the modesty of the apparel.. Don't wear fancy clothing is how I read that... Still says nothing about a woman showing her breasts.

I'm beginning to think this is made up out of thin air because so far there is nothing that in any way relates to a woman covering her breasts.. or her arms, or shoulders, neck, face, or anything else. Only a statement that women shouldn't wear fancy and expensive clothing..

 

[HermanNeutics13]

So the passage you quoted is talking about the modesty of the apparel.. Don't wear fancy clothing is how I read that... Still says nothing about a woman showing her breasts.

I'm beginning to think this is made up out of thin air because so far there is nothing that in any way relates to a woman covering her breasts.. or her arms, or shoulders, neck, face, or anything else. Only a statement that women shouldn't wear fancy and expensive clothing..

Does the bible say anything about wet t-shirt contests?

I keep trying to look for actual prohibitions in the Bible and the more I do the more it seems clear they aren't there and that this is just something our culture came up with long ago, claiming it was from the Bible without anything to actual back it up.

 

[Murby]

this is just something our culture came up with long ago, claiming it was from the Bible without anything to actual back it up.

While it would appear that way to the casual observer, if one examines much of our mainstream culture, you find ties to things that are claimed to have originated as Christianity but are clearly not... The opposite is also true.. You find a lot of things that are directly tied to Christianity but are denied as being Christian.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

While it would appear that way to the casual observer, if one examines much of our mainstream culture, you find ties to things that are claimed to have originated as Christianity but are clearly not... The opposite is also true.. You find a lot of things that are directly tied to Christianity but are denied as being Christian.

Yes, such as the Christmas tree and other aspects of Christmas (not Christian yet considered lined to Christianity). The flip side probably being the calendar (although with the attempt to change dating to CE/BCE they are trying t get away from it, but by keeping the same numbers they make their efforts moot).

 

[squirrel123]

Aren't there any women here who want to argue for female toplessness? So far, it's all men arguing what women should do. I'd like some female opinions on the issue.

I've often resented the fact that, when it hits 35 degrees Celsius or more, if the setting allows, my husband can remove his shirt to cool off, but I can't.

I would absolutely do it if I didn't know it would cause complete chaos, but because of cultural norms, and because I know that the results of me doing so would be extremely uncomfortable, I don't. So I sweat instead.

Because once again, women are held responsible for not causing men to sin, but the opposite doesn't apply. Women have to take responsibility for their own lust.

 

[Archivist]

It is a sin to cause others to sin. St. Paul tells us not to cause our weaker brother to stumble. So if you know breastfeeding in public will cause scandal, it may be best to do it in a more private area if such is available.

Then where do you draw the line. My beautiful new house might cause others to commit the sin of envy. If I have people over and serve chocolate cake it might cause them to commit the sin of gluttony. Fact is we are responsible for our own sins.

I hate prosecutors. So that will tell you how I feel about how they do teen girls (and boys). But the law is the law. Unfair as it is, I would advise you to follow it. If you break the law, the deck is stacked against you being able to fight the charges.

But the law in NY State was overturned because a group of women in Rochester broke it and the NY Appellate Division overturned the law. Sometimes civil disobedience is how change happens. Men were arrested in NJ for going topless as late as the 1930s, but eventually those laws were changed.