Why Should Women not be Permitted to go Topless in Public?

[Dave-W]

Yes I have read your OP.

However I would contend that "modesty" is defined culturally.

There is a list of what was considered "Immodest" in that culture. It is not necessarily the same in our culture.

The bible is not necessarily a cut and dried rule book. There are certain things (including modesty) that are purely cultural. So what may be ok in one culture is totally forbidden by scripture in another culture.

For some reason people seem to have a hard time with that concept.

 

[Interplanner]

But the situation today is that people have less and less 'sense and sensibility' about character and virtue. They are driven by sexual fulfillment and that weakens or lowers them. If women really want to be leaders (and they are by nature leaders in emotional intelligence) they would dress modestly because of how men are wired visually, which women are not.

 

[keith99]

But the situation today is that people have less and less 'sense and sensibility' about character and virtue. They are driven by sexual fulfillment and that weakens or lowers them. If women really want to be leaders (and they are by nature leaders in emotional intelligence) they would dress modestly because of how men are wired visually, which women are not.

Some men have self control and some men can appreciate beauty outside of sexuality.

 

[keith99]

The over concern with modesty shown by some in this thread reminds me of an incident my first lifesaving instructor told us about. He was at some swimming area at a lake or pond and someone was drowning. He quickly stripped down to his boxers and pulled the guy out, barely soon enough, as in late enough that mouth to mouth respiration was briefly needed. When he finished he felt a tap on his shoulder. A police officer who was arresting him for indecent exposure.

That really is just a small step farther than some posters on this thread.

 

[Dave-W]

.... how men are wired visually, which women are not.

Not so sure of that. It is culturally acceptable for men to respond to visual stimuli. For women, not so much. Remember only a century ago women were assumed to have no sex drive or feelings whatsoever.

The thing is straight women are starting to look at more and more male gay porn. That is ALL about visual stimulation. So I think going forward as it becomes more understood in the culture as a whole, women will eventually be just as visually stimulated as men have been.

 

[Archivist]

Yes I have read your OP. However I would contend that "modesty" is defined culturally. There is a list of what was considered "Immodest" in that culture. It is not necessarily the same in our culture. The bible is not necessarily a cut and dried rule book. There are certain things (including modesty) that are purely cultural. So what may be ok in one culture is totally forbidden by scripture in another culture. For some reason people seem to have a hard time with that concept.

So modesty changes over time. The problem is that you seem to be saying that it has become immodest for women to go topless in public and now we have to keep it that way. Instead why not remove the laws prohibiting women from going topless and allow society to evolve. My guess is that had a woman gone topless on a beach in France or Spain in 1940 she would have been arrested, but the laws were removed and now topless beaches are the norn in those places.

 

[Rationalt]

Why not? What exceptions do you see?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Everybody knows it isn't the same. As far as erotic imagery is concerned there is no comparison.One has to jump several hoops equating imagery of topless man with topless woman.

 

[Rationalt]

most women today would tell you that seeing a topless man isn't a big deal.

Yep.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Everybody knows it isn't the same.

I don't.

As far as erotic imagery is concerned there is no comparison.

There isn't? Women can find male toplessness attractive.

And check out Roman sculpture, which clearly focuses more on males as having sexual power instead of women. I realize that we live in a different era, but there is nothing intrinsic to female toplessness that makes it superior in sexual power to male toplessness.

One has to jump several hoops equating imagery of topless man with topless woman.

Not really. It's not that difficult.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Rationalt]

I don't.

ok.

There isn't? Women can find male toplessness attractive.

I believe there is a large boundary between attractive and outright erotic.

And check out Roman sculpture, which clearly focuses more on males as having sexual power instead of women. I realize that we live in a different era, but there is nothing intrinsic to female toplessness that makes it superior in sexual power to male toplessness.

I read about roman male nude sculptures and definitely not interested in checking those images.Anyhow, it is not particularly relevant to this subject.

Topless women imagery is erotic outright.There is no getting away from that ,Except maybe in Africa.

 

[Darkhorse]

Topless women imagery is erotic outright.There is no getting away from that ,Except maybe in Africa.

And in Africa, how is it different?

 

[Interplanner]

The problem with what Eudamonist is saying about intrinsic is that it is not the question. The question at hand is the response of each gender. For the male gender, it is a degree of arousal. As far as I know, only in porn is there propaganda that women get aroused at men or other women visually.

 

[Archivist]

The good news is that the Venice Beach, CA, neighborhood council has passed a measure to approve topless sunbathing for women and men. It still awaits approval by the county.

Topless Laws US - Venice Beach New Rule

 

[faroukfarouk]

The good news is that the Venice Beach, CA, neighborhood council has passed a measure to approve topless sunbathing for women and men. It still awaits approval by the county.

Topless Laws US - Venice Beach New Rule

Whether it's good news or not, there's a sense in which for many ppl it's a matter of custom rather than 'legal rights' and arguments. Up here a court in Ontario legalized it, but whether it alters people's preferences and behavior is a moot point.

 

[Archivist]

Whether it's good news or not, there's a sense in which for many ppl it's a matter of custom rather than 'legal rights' and arguments. Up here a court in Ontario legalized it, but whether it alters people's preferences and behavior is a moot point.

To me it doesn't really matter whether it changes behavior or not. It is legal for women to go topless in the State of New York. Very few do. What is important is that those who do wish to exercise their equal rights don't face the risk of arrest and/or imprisonment.

 

[faroukfarouk]

To me it doesn't really matter whether it changes behavior or not. It is legal for women to go topless in the State of New York. Very few do. What is important is that those who do wish to exercise their equal rights don't face the risk of arrest and/or imprisonment.

I guess my point was, it was happening anyway before it was purportedly 'legalized'. It's more of a matter of custom than 'legal rights' and battles, etc.

 

[Armoured]

The problem with what Eudamonist is saying about intrinsic is that it is not the question. The question at hand is the response of each gender. For the male gender, it is a degree of arousal. As far as I know, only in porn is there propaganda that women get aroused at men or other women visually.

You don't think women get turned on by visual stimulus??

 

[Rationalt]

You don't think women get turned on by visual stimulus??

May be there is a poll somewhere ?.

The visual in question is of topless men.

 

[Interplanner]

There is no comparison between the genders on the visual. There is actually quite a bit of negative material out there by females about males. What women do with the visual is look for character clues or traits; for men it is seldom that, and is usually a sexual arousal.

As far as I know, one of the tricks of pornography is to subvert this reality through indoctrination, because then there will be a greater market.

 

[TerranceL]

May be there is a poll somewhere ?.

The visual in question is of topless men.

Ever walked past the romance novel aisle in a bookstore? All those shirtless men are there for a reason.