Why should I beleive in God?

[Stinker]

I'm posting this now because I've come to the end of my wit and I know no other place to look. I've been searching vigorously for a way back to Christianity because I miss the certainty I had when I loved God and now that I've fallen in love and will be getting married I don't want my fiancee to die and go to Hell nor would I want to bring children into this world if I don't even know what the rules are.

My request is simple: I would like someone to give me some concrete answer as to why I should beleive in God and why should I beleive he or she is truly good and holy. I am a man of science so if you try to convince me through feelings and emotions I'm afraid you'll be wasting your time. Give me evidence, unquestionable rational deductions or anything that would surely erase all doubt in my mind.

I'm pleading you to help me as a husband-to-be, a father hopefully and as a man in search of God.

What do you know about Jesus Christ? Did He really exist, and if one does believe that He walked the earth, what proof is there? What secular evidence do we have that would prove He really was who He said He was in the New Testament?

 

[akascottb]

i suggest you delve into the writtings of c.s. lewis. if he can't persuade a man of science then i know i can't.

daniel

 

[JJM]

I thank you so much for showing me that text, however there are a few flaws in the reasonning (especially the last two points). I do find though that the first three hold very well. But what does it really prove? It clearly states that there is a creator, a first mover but it does little to show me the quality of that creator. If we're agreed that there is a powerful force that started everything what proves that this force is anything like the christian god?

So if we conclude there is a God. How can we be sure if it’s the Christian God? Well that is what the other volumes of the Suma Theologica are for. However I would agree with you that some of his explanations are slightly flawed but many of them make sense. The entire text is about 5000 times longer than what I gave you but if you want to read it here it is: http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/home.html. Umm.. the first thing you have to do is decide if God interacts in the life of humans. St. Thomas says something of it here: http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP103.html#FPQ103OUTP1 I don’t really know if I can give you definite proof of that however if it isn’t true then what would be the purpose of creating it. So the best I can do is say if you take the above as truth I can attempt to lead you to Christianity. Now if we conclude that the creator interacts with the world then we can say that Religions are sources of knowledge about how this Creator does this and what He is. Now I can’t necessarily prove that the Christian God is truly that creator but I can pretty much prove that all the other ones aren’t thus if some sort of Religion is true it would have to be Christianity. I can try to do that but It would take hours of my time hours I’m willing to give but not if it isn’t goona help you any so you’d have to tell me if you want me to attempt it. Now I’m not goona lie to you it does take a bit of faith but not nearly as much as my brethren would have you believe. Nor do you have to believe it as blindly.

 

[Disiance]

1st Corinthians states pretty clearly that God does not want us to find Him through proof and our knowledge, but through faith and our hearts, that instead of gaining God through our wisdom, we gain wisdom through God.


1 Cor 1:20,21
"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God..."
1 Cor 1:22
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

1 Cor 1:24
"But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

 

[UberAthiest]

"God does not want us to find Him through proof and our knowledge, but through faith and our hearts"
I've been to countless church seremonies and have tried to communicate with and have communion with God, and never have I ever felt anything. I havent heard the voice of god and i havnt felt his hand. Is he trying to make it difficult?

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"
well, here they both want the same thing. The Jews want to see a miracle of some sort to prove Gods existence, and the Greeks want solid evidence. By the looks of the other quotes, you are implying that the jews have got it right, but where are the signs? I have not experienced or seen any miracles or acts of god and believe me, Ive been in the right place.

Also, what i said about faith still stands. you cant believe something that you have no reason to belive. faith is blind.

So if God really wants to show himself;
Why has God not touched my heart?
Why has God not given me a sign?

thanks

 

[Disiance]

I've been to countless church seremonies and have tried to communicate with and have communion with God, and never have I ever felt anything. I havent heard the voice of god and i havnt felt his hand. Is he trying to make it difficult?

I can't say whether or not He is trying to make it difficult, I do know that a person cannot have fellowship with God unless you know him, and believe in Him, and have trusted in Him to save you. I regrettably forget the verse, but to greatly paraphrase it: God will not listen to the prayers of those who do not believe in Him.

well, here they both want the same thing. The Jews want to see a miracle of some sort to prove Gods existence, and the Greeks want solid evidence. By the looks of the other quotes, you are implying that the jews have got it right, but where are the signs? I have not experienced or seen any miracles or acts of god and believe me, Ive been in the right place.

The Jews did not have it right either, other parts of the passage I quoted from inadvertantly rebuke the Jews for wanting a sign.
The Bible said that even Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented if they had seen what the Jews had seen, therefore signs alone cannot convince.
How would you know that you're in the right place for a miracle/sign? Only the Lord knows what He will do.

Also, what i said about faith still stands. you cant believe something that you have no reason to belive. faith is blind.

That is true, but faith itself is not blind, it is that first jump into faith that is blind. It is the same as a little kid's trust in his father, that if the kid jumps the father will catch him. If a person jumps God will catch them, as long as they truely believe He will.

So if God really wants to show himself;
Why has God not touched my heart?
Why has God not given me a sign?

Two verses in Psalms say:
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His handiwork."
"The heavens declare His rightousness, and all the people see His glory."
God does show himself, all of nature declares Him. He also shows himself, but to those who believe in Him. I have felt His pressence. I know my feeling don't do anything for you, and that is why God has given you signs. Going back to one of the verses above: "...the firmament showeth His handiwork." The actual word for "handiwork" that is used in the Greek or Hebrew is related with needlework or another skill that requires precision, God has created everything with excellent precision, all declares Him.

And the fact that you are asking these questions shows me that He has touched your heart, you just have not recognized it. The Holy Sprit works on those who do not believe, and once a believer, the Spirit ministers and shows us God's will.

 

[Shy21]

I'm pleading you to help me as a husband-to-be, a father hopefully and as a man in search of God.

Congratulations on soon becoming a husband!!!

 

[Shy21]

1 Cor 1:22
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

What sign do the Jews require? Jews believe in G-d and G-d has yet to provide a sign to us yet we still believe in G-d.

Seems to me.....Christianity is the one that requires a sign and that sign was the death of Jesus to get them to believe in G-d. If it wasnt for the death of a man....would Christians believe in G-d?

 

[Disiance]

What sign do the Jews require? Jews believe in G-d and G-d has yet to provide a sign to us yet we still believe in G-d.

Seems to me.....Christianity is the one that requires a sign and that sign was the death of Jesus to get them to believe in G-d. If it wasnt for the death of a man....would Christians believe in G-d?

The sign referred to by Paul in the passage I quoted from was one from Jesus. The Jews of that time kept asking Jesus to show them a sign that he was who he said he was. Paul here is reporting that this is indeed what they wanted.

If it wasn't for Jesus not many Gentiles would be believers (or Jew converts), because it was Jesus who first encouraged outreach to the Gentiles.
How could there be Christians without a Christ? He is from whom we get our name.

 

[Shy21]

The sign referred to by Paul in the passage I quoted from was one from Jesus. The Jews of that time kept asking Jesus to show them a sign that he was who he said he was. Paul here is reporting that this is indeed what they wanted.

If it wasn't for Jesus not many Gentiles would be believers (or Jew converts), because it was Jesus who first encouraged outreach to the Gentiles.
How could there be Christians without a Christ? He is from whom we get our name.

Oh the NT says it.....

So if there was no Christ would Christians believe in the OT(G-d Himself) or would they be Atheist?

 

[Disiance]

So if there was no Christ would Christians believe in the OT(G-d Himself) or would they be Atheist?

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
Without Jesus's saying to preach until all nations of the world, and therefore including Gentiles, I would never have heard the gospel. I would therefore be atheist, and I would assume that a good majority of Christians would be as well.

Since I am not real familiar with the Jewish beliefs, what is your reasoning for not believing that Jesus was the Messiah?

 

[Shy21]

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
Without Jesus's saying to preach until all nations of the world, and therefore including Gentiles, I would never have heard the gospel. I would therefore be atheist, and I would assume that a good majority of Christians would be as well.

Since I am not real familiar with the Jewish beliefs, what is your reasoning for not believing that Jesus was the Messiah?

So are you saying that even though the OT would be available that Christians wouldnt believe in G-d alone? That doesnt really show Faith in G-d...seems Christians have more faith in the human Jesus and what he did. Do Christians realize that G-d the Father means more than Jesus?

But anyways here is the reason why Jews dont believe in Christ.....

Well first of all human sacrifice is a sin, The bible says G-d doesnt delight in human blood, G-d said he is not a man, in the OT G-d forgave sin without Christ. Then the verse in Deut. 13 where G-d mentions a false phophet will come to earth perform miraculous signs and heal people and this false prophet will led people astray, Jesus changed G-d's Laws and abolished the OT. Jesus said it himself. G-d said do not add to His word yet a New Convenant was made.

I can show you in the OT were G-d said human sacrifice was wrong, were G-d said He isnt man, where G-d forgave and no sacrifice was needed, and where Jesus changed the OT laws. The only thing about that is that Christians will say that those verses dont mean that...they will say Jesus isnt man, he didnt change OT....but Jesus said he did and the verses says things for themselves but Christians obvisouly dont believe their own verses.

Here are some of the primary activities of the Jewish Moshiach......G-d said what will happen when His Promise Messiah comes:
• The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of G-d”. (Isaiah 11:2) (Jesus doesnt fear G-d...he said he is G-d)
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
• He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4).
• He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7) (How can Book of Revelation happen?)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8).
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9). (How can Book of Revelation happen?)
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23). (How can Book of Revelation happen?)
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19).
• Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11).
• The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55).
• The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos. (Jesus isnt the end of sacrifices because G-d said animal sacrifices will resume)
• The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17) (How can Revelation happen?)

NT is a contradict to our OT. Also Jews dont believe in hell....we believe in She'ol. No matter how many times Christians tell you that She'ol and hell means the same.....it doesnt.

 

[Disiance]

So are you saying that even though the OT would be available that Christians wouldnt believe in G-d alone? That doesnt really show Faith in G-d...seems Christians have more faith in the human Jesus and what he did. Do Christians realize that G-d the Father means more than Jesus?

I am saying that the OT would not have reached nearly as many Gentiles as it has, and without knowledge one can not act upon it.

Thank you for sharing your views, I will not debate (wrong word choice...talk about?) the points you stated because 1) this is the wrong thread/forum and 2) I have done no studies what-so-ever into this field, but thanks again!

 

[Shy21]

I am saying that the OT would not have reached nearly as many Gentiles as it has, and without knowledge one can not act upon it.

Thank you for sharing your views, I will not debate (wrong word choice...talk about?) the points you stated because 1) this is the wrong thread/forum and 2) I have done no studies what-so-ever into this field, but thanks again!

I didnt ask you to debate. You asked me a question and I gave you an answer. When I asked you questions in that post...I didnt really mean for you to answer...I was just trying to get you to see why Jews dont believe in Christ.

 

[Disiance]

I didnt ask you to debate. You asked me a question and I gave you an answer. When I asked you questions in that post...I didnt really mean for you to answer...I was just trying to get you to see why Jews dont believe in Christ.

I realize that, but I didn't know if you expected an answer or not so I gave you one so it didn't seem like I was being rude.

 

[UberAthiest]

First of all, thanks for the replies. Most christians would have flamed me all the way to hell by now.

"a person cannot have fellowship with God unless you know him, and
believe in Him"
Trust me I did...for 13 or more years of my life. Despite been shown
concrete evidence I still had blind faith, but gradually I drifted
from it. And in that period of blind faith and belief, there were
actually no incidents that proved Gods existence. The only reason I
continued to believe for so long is because I wanted to.

"The Bible said that even Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented if
they had seen what the Jews had seen, therefore signs alone cannot
convince."
This presumes that I am like the people of Sodom and Gomarrah. I
assure you if The Lord spoke to me or I witnessed an act of God, I
would believe. Who wouldn't?

"It is the same as a little kid's trust in his father"
Well, not quite. I can see and talk to my own father. I know he is
there. It doesn't take any faith.
"How would you know that you're in the right place for a miracle/
sign? Only the Lord knows what He will do."
Yes I have been told many times that Gods timing is perfect...but in
my life God has always seemed late...or should I say, has never acted
at all.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His
handiwork."
"The heavens declare His rightousness, and all the people see His
glory."
I presume you are referring to the design of the world. Well, I
personally don't see it as proof of God. THe universe is so vast and
it makes sense that maybe one out of those billions of planets could
support life. Yes, there are many beautiful things in this world, but
if God created all those, then he must have created all the bad
things in our world:
Isa. 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, AND
CREATE EVIL. I the LORD do all these things"
Therefore, I do not see the creation of this world as proof of Gods
existence as God is meant to be good and all loving.

"the fact that you are asking these questions shows me that He has
touched your heart"
Maybe...but I think it is just my desire to know the truth.

"Christianity is the one that requires a sign and that sign was the death of Jesus"
This doesn't prove anything.

 

[JJM]

• The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of G-d”. (Isaiah 11:2) (Jesus doesnt fear G-d...he said he is G-d)

As far a christian is concered fear of God is obedience to his will the septuagint actully writes this as piety.

• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8).
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9). (How can Book of Revelation happen?)
• The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17) (How can Revelation happen?)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4).
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19).
• Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11).
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55).

all of these will happen after the second coming

• He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)

See Matthew 1:6

• He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7) (How can Book of Revelation happen?)

Matthew 5:9 it's even on a mountain

Also have you read the end of revelation their is peace then.

• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23). (How can Book of Revelation happen?)

While the apostles aren't all the Jews the Gentiles did look to them for guidence.

• The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)

Mt 19:28

• The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos. (Jesus isnt the end of sacrifices because G-d said animal sacrifices will resume)

I see nothing about Sacrifices in Ezekiel 40

NT is a contradict to our OT. Also Jews dont believe in hell....we believe in She'ol. No matter how many times Christians tell you that She'ol and hell means the same.....it doesnt.

I don't know who told you Sheol and Hell were the same thing but they aren't. The only time Hell is used to refer to Sheol is in the Creed but even that is only in the English translation. The Greek says bosom of Abraham. Sheol as far as Christians are concerned or at least ones that know anything about true Christian theology is the place of the Righteous dead of the OT Christ brought these people to heaven with him when he left Sheol on the 3rd day. Hell is the place of the unrighteous Dead.

 

[JJM]

Also, why do christians try so hard to disprove evolution? How does disproving certian scientific theories like evolution and the bigbang give christianity any more credibility?

Because Fundamentalists don't understand the purpose or infallibility of the Bible so they think that if evolution is true then their religion is false.

 

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessings be Upon you in the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

My request is simple: I would like someone to give me some concrete answer as to why I should beleive in God and why should I beleive he or she is truly good and holy. I am a man of science so if you try to convince me through feelings and emotions I'm afraid you'll be wasting your time. Give me evidence, unquestionable rational deductions or anything that would surely erase all doubt in my mind.

First: Before I can continue down this path.

What exact Science are you a man of? This carries with it a great deal of weight, as it effects the matters of your understandings and my own as to where we can find an equal ground of discussion.



Secondly: Why won’t emotions effect you, do you not attribute a great deal of validity to emotions, after all I am sure you love your wife, and that feeling of “Love” is enough for you to base your continual relationship with her, as well as emotions of responsibility persuade you to seek guidance in becoming a father.

Since these factors are in effect, one can rest most assuredly, that you do place validity into “I just feel it”



As for evidence, I can provide you all the evidence you like, but if you look at it with the mind set that God is not real, it matters not what I place before you as “Evidence” since no mortal is able to bring “God Almighty” down to earth and say “Look here he is” you will need to only look at what God has done, and then decide if God is indeed real or not.

I hate to say it, also, but If I could “Bring God to your door step” I wouldn’t. It’s a matter of faith and conviction, and unless you have that faith and conviction nothing will persuade you.

I could say “Life itself” is proof of God, and by every means we have open to us, we can not “Make Life” Set, is it not true that we can not even “Make a Rock” much less “Make Life” and yet, there are those who would say

“So what I can not make a Rock, that Proves nothing”

then, what can anyone offer you?

What “Evidence” can I bring you, I am a human, I have but two hands of mortal flesh, I have only the same rocks and sand and plants you have.

I look at them and say “There Must be a God”.



UberAthiest

Please understand that I welcome your questions with open arms, but please be mindful not to seek to turn this into a debate. The forum Rules as follows is “Only Christians” may respond to questions asked in this sub category, and the original poster, if they have concerns regarding the answers they have received.

"The only way to know that God exists is to have faith"
I think therefore I am kinda thing? I dont know about you guys, but comments like this one just scream out ignorance to me.

Plato said “No man can possess words” now if I say “I think therefore I am” that is a self evident proof.

If I feel God, then There is a God. Self Evident to the person that experienced it.

Just as You were to feel Pain, therefore Pain Exists, but that does not hold true to those that can ignore pain or do not feel pain, and they might say “Pain is not real, it is an illusion” does this discredit the pain you are enduring?

"the fact that the level of fine tunning of the universe is an overwhelming indication that it is no accident but that fact alone does not lead directly to the conclusion that the christian god fine tuned it."
The universe is infinitly vast in size so theres no surprise that there is a planet that supports life.

I hate to say this, But no it’s not.

This is the conclusion set forth by Every Astrology Society (Secular and otherwise), and NASA.

The universe is not infinite, nor is there an infinite number of planets, nor is there an infinite amount of time for things to unfold.

There is a set number of planets, (As new ones are not being Created all the time) there has been a set date or time, being approximately 13.4 billion years old, and therefore the universe can not be infinite, it may be large, but not infinite. If it is infinite (Per NASA), then it is infinitely void, and thus only a finite amount of it the Universe has Mass in it.

(Note: If I subtract a finite number from Infinity, I still have Infinity, and thus Infinitely Void is the correct term, NASA explained this)

Secondly.

If I was to say “it’s not surprising that there is a planet that supports life”

I would have to say that I do.

Let me explain why.

To figure this out:

First you need to have a planet that “CAN” support life, IE: has the correct chemicals, and gases in the atmosphere, that has the correct mineral composition that can provide for the nutrition of life, and there needs to be an absence of Gasses and Chemicals that destroy life.

This finding the Planet in it’s own right is near to unique.

Secondly: You need to have a planet that not only can support life of it’s own accord, it need to be in a proper location in relationship to it’s solar system, a planet is not to hot or too cold. One that can be both Hot an Cold either in cycle or in status. One side Hot one side Cold, or rotating in some form from Hot to Cold, or having a climate that can support life in a manner acceptable.

As if the planet is too fringed, Life will not spring forth, if it is to hot, life can not spring forth. So. Not only do I need to find a planet that can support life, it needs to exist in an appropriate location that Life can handle survival on that planet.

Now that has drastically limited our chances down to a very small amount of places in this “vast space” we call a universe. (We don’t know of one that exists yet, that meets any of these criteria’s much less all of them)

Finally: The effect of Life needs to Happen. Life needs to “Spring Forth” on this rare and wonderful planet.

If you do not find that in it’s own right to be truly a surprising event, my apologies to you.

God or No God, for this to unfold at all, much less on our planet, we have beat impossible Odds of failure, and thus Life, any life, can only be viewed as something truly precious and extremely rare in this Universe.





Shy21.

Your questions are welcome and truly appreciated. But please do not seek to turn this into a debate, or seek to “Challenge” the Christians on this Forum, as that is not only against the Rules, it is not really nice. The People here at CF has been most gracious to provide us with a special place for Debates, between Christians and Everyone Else. This however is not the forum for that, nor is this the forum for “Debunking” or ‘Challenging” the Christian teachings or the Christian Faith, as per by the rules of this forum, The people that respond here are not allowed to even debate this issue with you. Please keep that in mind as you post. Your questions as well as everyone else are and shall remain most welcome here.

Seems to me.....Christianity is the one that requires a sign and that sign was the death of Jesus to get them to believe in G-d. If it wasnt for the death of a man....would Christians believe in G-d?

This is a loaded question.

Would we Believe in A God, or would we believe in the Jewish God.

They are different questions.

As it stands, had Christ Not came, There would be no Christianity, But rather then write this off as a moot question, I would like to give you a moment to clarify this question.





In Service to our Lord and Savior.

Vigil.

 

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessing be upon you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"The Bible said that even Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented if
they had seen what the Jews had seen, therefore signs alone cannot
convince."
This presumes that I am like the people of Sodom and Gomarrah. I
assure you if The Lord spoke to me or I witnessed an act of God, I
would believe. Who wouldn't?

You would be amazed.

It’s more based on what you require as an “act of God” then, not believing when you see one.

My personal favorite line is “And, did you expect the heavens to split horizontally or vertically?” (Rev Eric C.)



God Bless.

Vigil.