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John Mullally

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True faith saves and justifies.
True faith obeys.
But it is not faith's obedience which saves or justifies, it is only faith itself, apart from its works which saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justifies (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5).
Faith can be wrecked, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander:
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.​

:
And that's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:21;
1 Corinthians 1:29).
For God neither gives his glory to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8)
I believe God's most important word to humanity is best stated in Mark 16:16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Accepting His gracious offer is not contributing anything or taking away His glory.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I’m going to present these verses as part of the topic of this thread. I’ll let David – LGW – determine whether, or not we proceed. I’m just using an English translation and looking at very little Greek to begin. I’m going to format it based upon how I see the points being stated:

Luke 8:5-15 5 "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed,
  • some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
  • 6 "Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.
  • 7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.
  • 8 "But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold."
When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, "What does this parable mean?" 10 And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand1.' 11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
  • 12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
  • 13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
  • 14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
  • 15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
A few questions:
  1. Can we set aside our soteriological systems under which you've been instructed and just read and without bias take out from (exegete) Scripture what Jesus says?
  2. If you see that the first point ultimately says they did not believe and thus were not saved, then can such people sit in pews and pretend to believe and be saved?
  3. How do you explain the 2nd group when Jesus says, they hear the word of God, receive the word of God (seed) with joy, they have no root, they believe for a while, they get tempted, they fall away? OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?
  4. They hear, they go out, they get choked out (thanks MMA), they bring no fruit to maturity (I will note that maturity of fruit here applies not only to the next group, but also to wherever maturity vs. infancy and fruits of the Spirit are discussed in NT Scripture). OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?
  5. What means: good ground; hearing the word with a noble and good heart; (some Greek here) hold fast; and bear fruit in endurance? OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?

No problem Gary, good post, please continue, its on topic.

God bless.
 
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GDL

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No problem Gary, good post, please continue, its on topic.

God bless.

Will do, assuming the crickets don't just come out again. If they do, then you and I can discuss those interesting dynamics.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Faith can be wrecked, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander:
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.​


I believe God's most important word to humanity is best stated in Mark 16:16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Accepting His gracious offer is not contributing anything or taking away His glory.

Another interesting scripture to John is found in John 3:36 [36], He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

If you look at the Greek word tense for "believe" it is present indicative active which means it is possibly better translated as "believing" or applied in scripture,

John 3:36 [36], He that believing on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believing not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

The implications here agree with Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 that if we choose at any time to "depart the faith" into unrepentant sin and unbelief we are no longer believing but have become "unbelieving" therefore the wrath of God abides on us and we will not see life. "Believing God's word is not separate from obeying what Gods' word says according to the scriptures *Romans 3:31; James 2:13-26.

God bless.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Will do, assuming the crickets don't just come out again. If they do, then you and I can discuss those interesting dynamics.
I would not worry about the crickets too much. You kind of get use to them after a while. There are others that benefit though :)
 
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Clare73

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Faith can be wrecked, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander:
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.​
Counterfeit faith can be wrecked, as in Matthew 7:21-23.
I believe God's most important word to humanity is best stated in Mark 16:16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Accepting His gracious offer is not contributing anything or taking away His glory.
Counterfeit faith can be wrecked. True faith is not wrecked, because of God.
Post #998:

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He. . .set his seal of ownership on us and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."(2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

Also in 2 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 1:8.

"We were made heirs, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in accordance with the purpose of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)

"You who. . .have believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13-14)

". . .for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)

"Those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me."
(John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me," (John 6:39)
 
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klutedavid

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No, I have said no such thing.

No it wasn't. I said "believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

Take Care.
You said.

"believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.


Then I said, is this what you believe LGW.

"believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

Then you replied.

No, I have said no such thing.

No it wasn't. I said "believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

You are definitely disagreeing with yourself here.
 
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klutedavid

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Yes no problem... (see post # 990 linked which shows why I was in disagreement with you earlier)

According to the scriptures genuine faith and works are not separate from each other. Genuine faith in God's Word is obedience to what Gods' Word says. Let's consider all the scripture you have posted here (not some of it) and the full scripture and chapter context if it might be helpful.

James 2:14-26
[14], What does it profit, my brothers, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
  • Note the question being asked can faith without works save anyone? James goes on to answer this question in the rest of the chapter.
[15], If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[16], And one of you say to them, Depart in peace, be you warmed and filled; notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit?
  • Note James provides the example of someone who has no clothes or food and a person saying to them be warm and full of food without giving them food and clothes. How does this help the person who needs food and clothes?
[17], Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
  • Note the response of James. Just like saying to the naked and hungry be warmed and filled without giving them food and clothes, faith if it does not have action is dead (not true faith) being alone. James continues...
[18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
  • Note: James is showing that genuine faith is not separate from our actions and it is our actions that demonstrate if we have genuine faith or not.
[19], You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20], But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
  • Note: James goes on to show that there is a difference between genuine faith which is not separate from our actions and dead faith that has no action and compare it to the dead faith of devils in [19-20]
[21], Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son on the altar?
  • Note: Abraham's faith led him to action by following what Gods' Word said in making an offering our of his own son. Now note all the above is the context to your claim of faith without works which is stating the opposite of what you are claiming here.
[22], See you how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
  • Note: James here is continuing what has already been shared in the scriptures so far by using Abraham's example of believing Gods' Word and obeying Gods' Word to offer up his son as an offering showing that it was Abraham's obedience to Gods' Word that made his faith perfect.
[23], And the scripture was fulfilled which said, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24], You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
  • Note: James is showing here that genuine faith and what it means to truly believe God is to believe and obey what Gods' Word says.
[25], Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26], For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

..................

Conclusion: James is showing in full scripture context of James 2:14-26 that genuine faith in Gods Word is not separate from action and that if we have faith in God's Word we will believe and obey what God's Word says. Therefore faith is not separate from obedience to God's Word. Genuine faith is obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils.

Take Care.
You are seriously off the track, LGW.

I will use your quotations as usual.

James says that works perfect your faith.

[22], See you how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

I don't think I have ever said that woks are not our duty as Christians.

Here is a common quotation of mine.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.

You connect faith and works together, into one word, FAITHWORKS, saves.

I separate faith from works completely.

Saved by grace through faith. Then as a new creation (spirit filled) we can performs those works.

I have works the same as yours, LGW.

You contribute to your salvation with your works.

I am saved by grace through faith alone. Then as a saved Christian I perform works.

FAITH MADE PERFECT.
 
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klutedavid

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I’m going to present these verses as part of the topic of this thread. I’ll let David – LGW – determine whether, or not we proceed. I’m just using an English translation and looking at very little Greek to begin. I’m going to format it based upon how I see the points being stated:

Luke 8:5-15 5 "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed,
  • some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
  • 6 "Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.
  • 7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.
  • 8 "But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold."
When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, "What does this parable mean?" 10 And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand1.' 11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
  • 12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
  • 13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
  • 14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
  • 15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
A few questions:
  1. Can we set aside our soteriological systems under which you've been instructed and just read and without bias take out from (exegete) Scripture what Jesus says?
  2. If you see that the first point ultimately says they did not believe and thus were not saved, then can such people sit in pews and pretend to believe and be saved?
  3. How do you explain the 2nd group when Jesus says, they hear the word of God, receive the word of God (seed) with joy, they have no root, they believe for a while, they get tempted, they fall away? OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?
  4. They hear, they go out, they get choked out (thanks MMA), they bring no fruit to maturity (I will note that maturity of fruit here applies not only to the next group, but also to wherever maturity vs. infancy and fruits of the Spirit are discussed in NT Scripture). OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?
  5. What means: good ground; hearing the word with a noble and good heart; (some Greek here) hold fast; and bear fruit in endurance? OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?
Good quotation.

Obviously, if a person stops believing in Jesus, then they have not endured. They cannot be saved.

The only way to be saved is to trust in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit there will never be any fruit of the Holy Spirit.
 
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klutedavid

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Faith can be wrecked, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander:
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.​


I believe God's most important word to humanity is best stated in Mark 16:16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Accepting His gracious offer is not contributing anything or taking away His glory.
The text does not state that Hymenaeus and Alexander, were not saved or unsaved. Rather, Hymenaeus and Alexander will be taught not to blaspheme.
 
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GDL

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Good quotation.

Obviously, if a person stops believing in Jesus, then they have not endured. They cannot be saved.

The only way to be saved is to trust in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit there will never be any fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Part of a full response, but I'll take it and say, thanks.

What's obvious to you, is not obvious to all, obviously.

So, just to be clear, did they lose their salvation by not enduring? Or were they never saved to begin with? Or???
 
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klutedavid

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Part of a full response, but I'll take it and say, thanks.

What's obvious to you, is not obvious to all, obviously.

So, just to be clear, did they lose their salvation by not enduring? Or were they never saved to begin with? Or???
If you believe in Jesus you are saved.

If you stop believing in Jesus down the track, then you are no longer trusting in Jesus. Obviously, when you stop trusting in Jesus, then you are not saved.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

They were saved as long as they call on the name of Jesus. The scripture is very clear on this point.
 
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John Mullally

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The text does not state that Hymenaeus and Alexander, were not saved or unsaved. Rather, Hymenaeus and Alexander will be taught not to blaspheme.
They were saved and their faith was in good standing at least at some point before the letter to Timothy was written. Paul uses the shipwreck analogy: you can't shipwreck a ship that never operated correctly.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You said.

"believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.


Then I said, is this what you believe LGW.

"believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

Then you replied.

No, I have said no such thing.

No it wasn't. I said "believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

You are definitely disagreeing with yourself here.

I think you have lost track of the conversation. Please read your post that I am responding to as shown in post # 1116 linked.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You are seriously off the track, LGW.

I will use your quotations as usual.

James says that works perfect your faith.

[22], See you how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

I don't think I have ever said that woks are not our duty as Christians.

Here is a common quotation of mine.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.

You connect faith and works together, into one word, FAITHWORKS, saves.

I separate faith from works completely.

Saved by grace through faith. Then as a new creation (spirit filled) we can performs those works.

I have works the same as yours, LGW.

You contribute to your salvation with your works.

I am saved by grace through faith alone. Then as a saved Christian I perform works.

FAITH MADE PERFECT.

Your making arguments again no one is arguing about. Perhaps you can tell me what it is in the post you are responding to that you are in disagreement with and stop pretending I am saying things I have never said or do not believe (see post # 1117 linked). According to James if our faith in God's Word does not lead to obeying Gods' Word all we have is the dead faith of devils. This is not saving faith as the devils are not saved. They believe in God but do not do what Gods' Word says.

Take care.
 
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klutedavid

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Your making arguments again no one is arguing about. Perhaps you can tell me what it is in the post you are responding to that you are in disagreement with and stop pretending I am saying things I have never said or do not believe (see post # 1117 linked). According to James if our faith in God's Word does not lead to obeying Gods' Word all we have is the dead faith of devils. This is not saving faith as the devils are not saved. They believe in God but do not do what Gods' Word says.

Take care.
A Christian can never lose their salvation.

As long as any Christian trusts in Jesus for their salvation, then they are saved.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

That is what God said.

If your interpretation contradicts Romans 10:13, then you need to reassess your interpretation.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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A Christian can never lose their salvation.As long as any Christian trusts in Jesus for their salvation, then they are saved. Romans 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That is what God said.If your interpretation contradicts Romans 10:13, then you need to reassess your interpretation.

According to the scriptures, Paul here in Romans 10:13 is quoting from the same set of scriptures Peter is referring to in Acts of the Apostles 2:21 from the old testament scriptures written in Joel 2:28-32 of the coming of the Messiah. You may want to consider the rest of the scripture context written you are leaving out in Romans 10:13-17 that states that "calling on the name of the Lord" is linked to believing and obeying what God's Word says. For example...

Romans 10:13-17 [13], For whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[14], How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15], And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[16], But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias said, Lord, who has believed our report?
[17], So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Taken from the scriptures above...
  • Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved -Romans 10:13
  • Some do not believe without God's word - Romans 10:14
  • The gospel is shared through the word of God - Romans 10:15
  • The gospel is one of glad tidings - Romans 10:15
  • But not everyone believes the gospel - Romans 10:16
  • So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God - Romans 10:17
Note: Romans 10:13-17 says that we cannot call on the name of the Lord without having an understanding of what Gods Word says. The gospel is the Word of God and good news given to all mankind but sadly not everyone believes it. You will notice as well here that "calling on the name of the Lord" is also linked to not only the Word of God (the gospel) but also to faith in Gods' Word. So calling on the name of the Lord mean we do so by having faith in the glad tidings of Gods' Word.

What does it mean to "call upon the name of the Lord" how does it link into the gospel examples?
  • Two blind men calling on the name of the Lord receive their sight and followed him - Matthew 20:30-34
  • One blind man heard Jesus was coming and called on the name of the Lord and received His sight because he believed Gods word - Mark 10:47-52
  • Leper calling on Jesus believed Jesus could heal him - Luke 5:12-14
  • Centurion called on the Lord to heal his son, he believed Gods word and his son was healed - Luke 7:6-10
Note: Romans 10:13-17 is demonstrated in all those who Jesus healed from their sicknesses. They called on the name of the Lord (Saviour) and their faith in Gods' Word made them whole and they were healed. There parallel with what Jesus says in Matthew 9:12-13 in regards to our sickness of sin and the need to seek Jesus as Gods true physician to save us from our sins

What is the name of the Lord?
  • His name was Jesus for he will save His people from their sins - Matthew 1:21
..................

Summary: "Calling on the name of the Lord" is in context believing the gospel message (the Word of God). The four gospels all teach us that all the sick calling upon the name of the Lord where healed of their sickness and sins as they believed the words of Jesus. The "name of the Lord" is Jesus because he will save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). Therefore the parallel to the gospel is that we are all sick with the terminal sickness of sin for we all have a sinful nature *Romans 7:1-25 and we have all sinned and fall short of Gods' glory and the wages of sin is death *Romans 3:8-23; Romans 6:23 but God's gift is eternal life to all those who continue believing and calling on him *Romans 3:36. Therefore calling on the name of the Lord is not separate from believing and following what Gods' Word says because without faith it is impossible to please him *Hebrews 11:6 and whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23. Therefore no one can "call on the name of the Lord" by not knowing, believing and following what Gods' Word says. So there is nothing that you have posted here David that does not agree with everything else here that has already been shared with you.

Take Care.
 
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GDL

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If you stop believing in Jesus down the track, then you are no longer trusting in Jesus. Obviously, when you stop trusting in Jesus, then you are not saved.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

They were saved as long as they call on the name of Jesus. The scripture is very clear on this point.

So, a Christian is a person who:
  • Believes in Jesus (calls on the name of the Lord), and
  • Does not stop believing in Jesus (continues to call on the name of the Lord)
Questions:
  1. Does a person who continues to believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord:
    1. Continue to live a life of unrepentant sin?
    2. Grow in the knowledge and action of obeying God?
    3. Do the good works God created him or her to do?
  2. If a person says and continues to say they believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord, and does not obey God - obey Jesus Christ - does this person truly believe in Jesus / call on the name of the Lord?
 
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GDL

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Good quotation.

Obviously, if a person stops believing in Jesus, then they have not endured. They cannot be saved.

The only way to be saved is to trust in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit there will never be any fruit of the Holy Spirit.

So, just to be clear, did they lose their salvation by not enduring? Or were they never saved to begin with? Or???

If you believe in Jesus you are saved.

If you stop believing in Jesus down the track, then you are no longer trusting in Jesus. Obviously, when you stop trusting in Jesus, then you are not saved.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

They were saved as long as they call on the name of Jesus. The scripture is very clear on this point.

Once again, if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus:
  • Does this person lose their salvation?
  • OR, Was this person never saved in the first place?
 
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Rapture Bound

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GDL stated [post #1139],

"Once again, if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus:
Does this person lose their salvation?
OR, Was this person never saved in the first place?"

My Reply :

The last two questions are based on a logical fallacy of the initial conditional statement ... "if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus". That is to say, the premise [conditional statement] will never be actualized. Therefore, the resulting questions become nonsensical [logically incoherent].

The initial conditional statement should be restated like this :

"if a person experiences a justified status in the eyes of God, can that person ever lose [forfeit] that position?"
 
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