WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[GDL]

You may be misunderstanding what that verse (Matthew 7:23) is really saying.

Before I read any more, sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when you ignore so much detailed discussion about Scripture.

I'll look at what you say anyway. If you're correct, I'm happy to stand corrected. This is all about us all understanding the Truth.

 

[klutedavid]

Nothing to say about the Scripture? Easy for your Greek friend, doesn't mean easy for you.

So I just get my Greek compatriot to read the verse. So easy.

The issue was never really about the quality of the translations. The issue has always been the method of interpretation, that is applied to the New Testament.

An interpretation is the way you read and understand any letter, in the New Testament.

An interpretation places an emphasis on a select number of verses, and ignores other verses.

For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses place all the emphasis on just one word, JEHOVAH.

That is the interpretation that the JW's apply to the scripture.

Understanding the scripture is simple but the interpretations add enormous complexity.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Check 2 Timothy 2:19 regarding Jesus knows those who are His connected to the command to withdraw/depart from unrighteousness (which is also sin) and the following instruction to cleanse ourselves from dishonor and do good works. This also doesn't say the ones He doesn't know were never saved.

I like this scripture Gary in 2 Timothy 2:19 as it links very nicely with Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6 which shows that knowing God is obeying God and not knowing God is disobeying God. When Jesus says I never knew you and connect this to you who practice sin, the scriptures are saying that no one can claim to know God if they do not believe and obey what God's Word says.

God bless

 

[Danthemailman]

But Matthew 7:23 simply says they were ones who worked lawlessness (which is sin). It doesn't say they were never saved.

John 6:40 uses a present participle to identify those who believe. Is this a one-time momentary belief or a lasting belief? Can we believe Jesus is Christ and God, and disobey Him in practice (which would be lawlessness) and still believe in Him and still be someone in the Father's will? Is failing to do the Father's will solely connected to not ever believing in His Son?

Jesus clearly stated I NEVER knew you. In John 17:3, we read - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.

These many people in Matthew 7:22 never had that relationship with Christ. Hence I NEVER knew you. (Matthew 7:23) Mere “mental assent” belief is not enough to save. (James 2:19)

There’s a difference between doing the Father’s will in order to become saved (John 6:40) and doing the Father’s will after we have been saved. 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[Danthemailman]

Check 2 Timothy 2:19 regarding Jesus knows those who are His connected to the command to withdraw/depart from unrighteousness (which is also sin) and the following instruction to cleanse ourselves from dishonor and do good works. This also doesn't say the ones He doesn't know were never saved.

It’s not about salvation by works but we do see descriptive evidence in scripture of those who are born again. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

GDL said: ↑ Check 2 Timothy 2:19 regarding Jesus knows those who are His connected to the command to withdraw/depart from unrighteousness (which is also sin) and the following instruction to cleanse ourselves from dishonor and do good works. This also doesn't say the ones He doesn't know were never saved.

Responded with...

I like this scripture Gary in 2 Timothy 2:19 as it links very nicely with Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6 which shows that knowing God is obeying God and not knowing God is disobeying God. When Jesus says I never knew you and connect this to you who practice sin, the scriptures are saying that no one can claim to know God if they do not believe and obey what God's Word says.

I will just add that I think some here are not really interested in a discussion sadly but I believe some are and some also read but may not contribute so your posts are always appreciated even if there are unbelievers here in what your sharing from the scriptures. How anyone can get a teaching of lawlessness from the scriptures is beyond me and how anyone can believe in teachings that we can believe God like the devils and not so what God asks us to do also has me baffled as I cannot find any of those teachings anywhere in the bible.

God bless.

 

[GDL]

You may be misunderstanding what that verse (Matthew 7:23) is really saying.

There is one critical commandment that is above every other commandment.

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Real disobedience, real sin, real lawlessness, is to deny Jesus Christ.

In fact, you deny Jesus Christ and you are judged.

That is the premier commandment and disobedience to that commandment (lawlessness) carries a devastating penalty.

Here is a commandment comparison.

Exodus 20
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house...

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ,

Which is the critical commandment?

I am not even sure if an act of coveting is a serious act of lawlessness. Western society is built on coveting, advertising, desiring what others have.

OK, a refreshing change of course.

1 John 3:23 is one of my favored verses for discussing the vital connection between faith & obedience.

I agree with you that this today is one of the most important commands in our Text. Knowing and truly believing in Jesus Christ and remaining in and living pursuant to that belief as also commanded here and elsewhere is central.

What I also like about this verse is that I see it as encompassing our life as Christians from start to finish. IOW come to belief in Jesus as God commands (obedience to our Father) and love one another as Jesus/God commanded and we've matured to love for God & neighbor & one another as God's Children. Just good stuff. Thanks for bringing it up.

As for the coveting, this would be part of the Decalogue that we're instructed is summarized as love neighbor, which is to love God, so it's all important. Through faith in Jesus Christ we can be trained by God's grace to accomplish a life of godliness. Obeying God's command to believe in His Son and abiding in this belief can take us to loveing one another as He loved us.

 

[klutedavid]

It is actually very simple according to the scriptures. If we believe Gods' Word we will obey what Gods' Word says.

You must believe in Jesus, first and foremost. Jesus is the WORD.

Not telling a lie will not make any headway with God. All that will happen, is that you become aware of how much you really do tell lies. The law makes you aware that you sin and does not grant righteousness. Obey that commandment to not lie but I don't think you can ever do it.

Only those people that believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. Will be the people that bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. That obedience to the Holy Spirit will generate abundant fruit.

 

[GDL]

It’s not about salvation by works but we do see descriptive evidence in scripture of those who are born again. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

I'll leave out the salvation by works (you really don't have to protect this issue with me) and just try to find agreement with you on the evidence of those born again / from above.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You must believe in Jesus, first and foremost. Jesus is the WORD.

Not telling a lie will not make any headway with God. All that will happen, is that you become aware of how much you really do tell lies. The law makes you aware that you sin and does not grant righteousness. Obey that commandment to not lie but I don't think you can ever do it.

Only those people that believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. Will be the people that bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. That obedience to the Holy Spirit will generate abundant fruit.

You will find yourself arguing with yourself if you continue to make arguments no one believe or has said to you. BTW "believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

Take Care.

 

[Danthemailman]

I'll leave out the salvation by works (you really don't have to protect this issue with me) and just try to find agreement with you on the evidence of those born again / from above.

Practicing iniquity is descriptive of those who are not born of God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'll leave out the salvation by works (you really don't have to protect this issue with me) and just try to find agreement with you on the evidence of those born again / from above.

I am not sure why people want to make argument no one is arguing about. Seems like a lot of confusion going on on the moment.

 

[GDL]

Practicing iniquity is descriptive of those who are not born of God.

Not just them, I'm afraid.

 

[klutedavid]

OK, a refreshing change of course.

1 John 3:23 is one of my favored verses for discussing the vital connection between faith & obedience.

I agree with you that this today is one of the most important commands in our Text. Knowing and truly believing in Jesus Christ and remaining in and living pursuant to that belief as also commanded here and elsewhere is central.

What I also like about this verse is that I see it as encompassing our life as Christians from start to finish. IOW come to belief in Jesus as God commands (obedience to our Father) and love one another as Jesus/God commanded and we've matured to love for God & neighbor & one another as God's Children. Just good stuff. Thanks for bringing it up.

As for the coveting, this would be part of the Decalogue that we're instructed is summarized as love neighbor, which is to love God, so it's all important. Through faith in Jesus Christ we can be trained by God's grace to accomplish to life of godliness. Obeying God's command to believe in His Son and abiding in this belief can take us to loveing one another as He loved us.

A near perfect reply, GDL.

One WORD.

Romans 10:8
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

 

[GDL]

Responded with...

Thanks for that response re: 2 Tim and for your other comments.

 

[klutedavid]

It is actually very simple according to the scriptures. If we believe Gods' Word we will obey what Gods' Word says.

Do you agree that the WORD = Jesus Christ?

 

[GDL]

A near perfect reply, GDL.

One WORD.

Romans 10:8
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Thanks kd. Some of Romans 10:8 is comparable to what I covered in 10:9. It certainly does call out Israel to confess Jesus is YHWH, which is a tremendous issue for them to acknowledge. I'm reading a book covering some areas of the Tanakh that speak of Messiah. I've read others. Great information and reminders of how He's there from Genesis on for us and Israel to see.

I also like how you're connecting the resurrection verses, which are vital to who He is and proof of it. Romans 1:4 says more of the importance of what the resurrection signified - ultimately that Jesus is God just as 10:8 & 9 say.

You and I have no disagreement on the centrality and evidence of our Lord to everything now.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Practicing iniquity is descriptive of those who are not born of God.

You may want to consider those who received Gods' Spirit and departed the faith to practice sin and unbelief. Were they born again (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31)? God's Spirit is only ever given to those who believe and obey what God's Word says according to *Acts of the Apostles 5:32. So if we believe and follow God's Word yesterday and no longer believe and follow God's Word today and God's Word links knowing God to obeying God, then how can we know God in sin and unbelief? Matthew 7:21-23 does not say we can believe God's Word and not obey what Gods' Word says. That is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:13-26.


.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Do you agree that the WORD = Jesus Christ?

Of course Jesus is the living Word of God *John 1:1-4-14; revealed to us today through His Spirit in the written Word of God (scripture).

 

[klutedavid]

It’s not about salvation by works but we do see descriptive evidence in scripture of those who are born again. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Excellent post.

A great verse below.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not