WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[GDL]

Some context for Philippians 2:13:

Philippians 2:12 where we're commanded by Paul to katergazomai our salvation with fear and trembling:

Some lexical work on katergazomai:

κατεργάζεσθε verb imperative present middle 2nd person plural from κατεργάζομαι
__________________________________
Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] κατεργάζομαι
• κατεργάζομαι mid. dep., Att. fut. 2 sg. κατεργᾷ Dt 28:39; 1 aor. κατειργασάμην; perf. κατείργασμαι. Pass.: fut. 2 pl. κατεργασθήσεσθε Ezk 36:9; aor. κατειργάσθην (on κατηργασάμην and κατηργάσθην s. B-D-F §67, 3; W-S. §12, 1; Mlt-H. 189) (Soph., Hdt.+).

1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do τὶ someth. (Hdt. 5, 24 πρήγματα μεγάλα; X., Mem. 3, 5, 11; Jos., Vi. 289) Ro 7:15, 17f, 20; 1 Cor 5:3; 1 Cl 32:3f. τὴν ἀσχημοσύνην κατεργαζόμενοι committing shameless acts Ro 1:27. τὸ κακόν do what is wrong 2:9; 13:10 v.l. τὸ βούλημα τῶν ἐθνῶν do what the gentiles (i.e. polytheists) like to do 1 Pt 4:3. δικαιοσύνην θεοῦ does what is right in the sight of God or (s. ἐργάζεσθαι 2c) achieves the uprightness that counts before God Js 1:20 v.l. ἅπαντα κατεργασάμενοι after you have done or accomplished everything (in this case the reference would be to the individual pieces of armor mentioned in what follows, which the reader is to employ as is prescribed; but s. 4 below) Eph 6:13. ὧν οὐ κατειργάσατο Χριστὸς δι᾽ ἐμοῦ of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me Ro 15:18. Pass. τὰ σημεῖα τοῦ ἀποστόλου κατειργάσθη ἐν ὑμῖν the signs by which an apostle demonstrates his authority have been done among you 2 Cor 12:12.

2. to cause a state or condition, bring about, produce, create (Hdt. 7, 102 ἀρετὴ ἀπὸ σοφίης κατεργασμένη; Philo, Plant. 50; TestJos 10:1) τὶ someth. νόμος ὀργήν Ro 4:15. θλῖψις ὑπομονήν 5:3 (TestJos 10:1 πόσα κατεργάζεται ἡ ὑπομονή); cp. Js 1:3. λύπη μετάνοιαν 2 Cor 7:10a v.l. (for ἐργάζεται). λύπη θάνατον vs. 10b; cp. vs. 11 (where a dat. of advantage is added). φθόνος ἀδελφοκτονίαν 1 Cl 4:7. μνησικακία θάνατον Hv 2, 3, 1. ἡ ἁμαρτία κ. ἐν ἐμοὶ πᾶσαν ἐπιθυμίαν sin called forth every desire within me Ro 7:8. τινί τι bring about someth. for someone (Eur., Her. 1046 πόλει σωτηρίαν) μοι θάνατον 7:13. αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης ἡμῖν 2 Cor 4:17. εὐχαριστίαν τῷ θεῷ bring about thankfulness to God 9:11; θάνατον ἑαυτῷ κ. bring death upon oneself Hm 4, 1, 2; cp. s 8, 8, 5 ἐργάζεσθαι.—Work out τὶ someth. (Pla., Gorg. 473d ὁ κατειργασμένος τὴν τυραννίδα ἀδίκως) τὴν ἑαυτῶν σωτηρίαν κατεργάζεσθε Phil 2:12 (JMichael, Phil 2:12: Exp. 9th ser., 2, 1924, 439-50).

3. to cause to be well prepared, prepare someone κ. τινα εἴς τι prepare someone for someth. (cp. Hdt. 7, 6, 1; X., Mem. 2, 3, 11) ἡμᾶς εἰς αὐτὸ τοῦτο for this very purpose 2 Cor 5:5.

4. to be successful in the face of obstacles, overpower, subdue, conquer (Hdt. 6, 2 νῆσον; Thu. 6, 11, 1 al. τινά; 1 Esdr 4:4; Philo, Sacr. Abel. 62; Jos., Ant. 2, 44) ἅπαντα κατεργασάμενοι στῆναι after proving victorious over everything, to stand your ground Eph 6:13 (but s. 1 above).—M-M. TW.

Another Lexicon (Liddel-Scott) says: to effect by labor, achieve, accomplish.

Philippians 2:12-13 tells us God is working/operating/energizing in us so we will desire to do and do for His good pleasure and that we work with Him to accomplish our salvation. Think good works He created beforehand for us to do in Christ Jesus. So, what if no continuing good works on our part?

 

[GDL]

It's pretty simple to see that God does His part pursuant to His Plan and we do our part in Christ as commanded by God as we abide/obey/love/believe as commanded.

I'm seeing nothing in quoted verses that assure us of abiding and not walking away if we so choose.

What is incorrect in my posts about Romans 10 and Ephesians 2. Can you prove error grammatically?

 

[Rapture Bound]

Some assert that subsequent to regeneration, the believer is placed into some type of probationary period in which they may or may not successfully complete. That is, if they remain faithful [or "faithful enough"], then they will ultimately secure for themselves a future entrance into heaven. However, I believe the scriptural evidence supports the claim that God will preserve the faith of all genuine believers, He will successfully keep and lead them to their heavenly inheritance.

1 Peter 1:6-7,"In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you
have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more
precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise,
honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,"

If a person has truly trusted in Christ's substitutionary death and subsequent
resurrection from the grave for the forgiveness of their sins, they have experienced saving faith [and have received eternal life by virtue of having been placed into union with Christ - the embodiment of eternal life].

"In this you greatly rejoice" [v.6]:

The critical question that needs to be pondered here is: "If any genuine follower of
Christ will ever fail these trials to the destruction of their souls [the forfeiture of
their salvation], then how could the possibility of rejoicing in them even exist?... they simply could not! After all, the eternal destiny of their souls are yet to be determined, that is, if any one of them will actually fail the test.

There is a worldly saying that goes like this, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
Biblically speaking, we may often ask ourselves, "what is the purpose of our trials and tribulations?"...quite frankly, there are many times that I grow very weary of them.

Think of trials as training! God has to train His troops. Have you ever heard of any staff sergeant who got to where he was without going through tough situations? God has to prepare His children for the future.

“A gem cannot be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials.”

“Being on a spiritual path does not prevent you from facing the darkness, but it teaches you how to use the darkness as a tool to grow.”

The endurance of our faith, despite the many rigorous trials, evidences and provides the true [saving] nature of our faith ... it's genuineness. The failure to endure reveals the counterfeit/spurious nature of a person's profession of faith.

“Trials teach us what we are; they dig up the soil, and let us see what we are made of.” – Charles Spurgeon. God already knows what we are made of, but do we? Do we personally possess the assurance that we are His child? [Romans 8:16].

So, in the end, we discover that what is really the most important question in any person's life is not, " Will I actually forfeit [lose] my salvation?", but instead, "Have I actually been born-gain?, that is, am I actually a new creation in Christ?" [John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5-7; 2 Corinthians 5:17].

 

[Rapture Bound]

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."...

As it relates to the eternal security of the believer...

Sanctification and the eternal security of the believer.

Sanctification is essential to the saving of our souls. There are 3 phases of salvation, justification, sanctification, and glorification. If a person has been justified, then sanctification [both positional (Hebrews 10:14) & progressive (1 John 3:3)] as well as glorification will necessarily be actualized [Romans 8:30]; that is, if genuine regeneration has taken place..."1 Tim 2:11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; [glorification]."

[progressive sanctification] -"every man that has this hope in him purifieth himself" [1 John 3:3]..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." [1 John 5:18].

Progressive sanctification is the only phase of a believer's salvation that is presently being lived out. Why? ... justification is a past experience in which the believer has been declared righteous before God, while glorification of the body [reception of a resurrection body in Heaven] remains a future experience.

With this understanding in mind, it is much easier to gain a correct perspective of Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [work out your own salvation] with fear and trembling."

There are some who make to grave error of viewing the phrase "work out your own salvation" as meaning to "work [for], or [maintain] your own salvation", which simply flies in the face of Ephesians 2:8-10 ...

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Although the term salvation referred to in Philippians 2:12 includes all three phases of it, it is specifically referring to the component of progressive sanctification; it is the only possible phase of a believer's life that can presently be lived out. Therefore, neither the justification or glorification of a believer is in jeopardy here. The only elements that are actually in play relate to whether or not a person has actually experienced the new birth .. have they exercised saving faith? ... have they actually been regenerated? ... are they presently experiencing progressive sanctification? ... are they the genuine article?

Positional sanctification is often compared to justification, for it is another perspective on the action of God in response to saving faith: justification is God's forensic declaration of righteousness that makes the sinner acceptable to God; positional sanctification is the determination by God that the justified sinner is now set apart unto himself as one of his holy people.

Ultimate sanctification [glorification] is what occurs at death, when a Christian is absolutely and permanently set free from the very presence of sin and is perfected in God's sight. 1 John 3:2 describes ultimate sanctification, "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

In 1 Corinthians 1:2, the Apostle Paul describes the relationship between positional sanctification and progressive sanctification, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…" Christians are both "sanctified in Christ Jesus" and "called to be holy." The Greek words for "sanctified" and "holy" are from the same root word. Christians are holy and called to be holy at the same time. Progressive sanctification is a [life long] daily process whereby the Holy Spirit deals with, and sets them free from the dominion of sin - Romans 6:14, growing them in righteousness [thereby conforming them to the image of Jesus Christ].

 

[Rapture Bound]

God's perspective on glorification contrasted to our perspective on glorification:

"brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure" [2 Peter 1:10]

When it comes to the topic of election to salvation and predestination, the golden text that we turn to ["The Golden Chain of Redemption"] is found in Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

God's perspective on glorification :

God has predestined or predetermined that all who would place their trust in Christ's atoning work alone as their only hope of being accepted as righteous before God [i.e - the elect] will in fact experience a future glorification. All who have experienced this justification before God have already been glorified in the eyes of God; they are now simply playing out in real time the intermediate stage of their promised salvation [i.e. their sanctification] ... salvation = justification + sanctification + glorification. Therefore, from God's perspective, the salvation of all those who have effectually been called [and therefore elected to salvation] is a "done deal."

Those of the LOS [loss of salvation] mindset are perplexed at the apostle Paul's "presumption" to tack on a final past tense [aorist] verb [i.e. - "glorified"] to the so-called "Golden Chain" of salvation in Romans 8:30. How could Paul say that believers are glorified just as they are already foreknown, predestined, called, and justified? Paul links "glorified" so closely with the other four verbs to drive home the sheer certainty of what will transpire in all those who have been justified.

According to the sequence beginning in Rom 8:29, the elect are predestined “to be conformed to the image of his Son”. God has purposed and determined to imprint all those who belong to Christ with the image of the second Adam. Although this conformity or "likeness" is most likely initiated in part at the point of the believer's regeneration, it will not attain it's complete fulfillment until that time when the elect receive the redemption of their bodies [i.e. resurrected, glorified bodies] at some point subsequent to the their physical death.

If justification means being freed from the penalty of sin, if transformation means being gradually freed from the power of sin, then glorification means to be freed from the very presence of sin. The future “glory” means entrance into the new creation, to dwell in God’s new world, in God’s eschatological reign, among the glorified host of God’s people.

The ultimate redemption of the body is seen in passages such as ...

Philippians 3:21, "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

"Romans 8:23, "Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body."


Our perspective on glorification :

You may now be wrestling with the following question ... "why are we told to diligently make our calling and election "sure" if it is already certain?"

It appears that the answer is related to the very different natures that God and man possess. God, being omniscient, is certain of the outcome, while we [being very far removed from all-knowingness] may experience doubts and fears concerning our ultimate destiny. Keep in mind that some [who merely profess and suppose themselves to be among the elect] have very good reason to be concerned about that outcome since they have yet to experience justification, and therefore will not experience the redemption of their bodies unless they exercise a saving faith in Christ at some future point in time.

The word "sure," in our text means firm, steadfast, secure. Here the reference must be to "themselves", that is, they were so to secure the reality within themselves that they were truly among the number of the elect. It cannot refer to God, for no act of theirs could make it more certain on His part if they actually had been effectually called and therefore elected to salvation.

When a person exercises a genuine, saving faith, the type of faith that receives the benefits of Christ's atoning work, it will always result in that person's justification, sanctification, and glorification. So, the critical questions now become, "are we experiencing the sanctifying or transformational effects of the Holy Spirit's regenerative power? and, "what is the evidence that a person has truly been born again?... that they have been numbered among the elect. We should always keep in mind, that in the scheme in question, the sanctification of the saved is in view just as much as the foreordaining element of election [thereby also making it a necessary a part of the equation].

It is certainly possible to make our calling and election sure, that is, if we can determine the fact that we are true Christians. So in essence, the thought here really revolves back to Paul's exhortation given in 2 Cor.13:5, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? [the question of a believer's genuineness is more full addressed in my post #55 - page 3].

 

[Rapture Bound]

Further thoughts on the glorification of God's elect :

As I mentioned in Part 3 [post #92], Romans 8:29-30 ["The Golden Chain of Redemption"] directly addresses the issue of election to salvation and predestination, making it the focal point of our attention.

Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

"and whom he justified, them he also glorified"

1 Corinthians 6:11 informs us that all who have been justified have also been sanctified, while Romans 8:30 tells us that all who have been justified were also glorified. Therefore, all who have been [and are presently] experiencing the ongoing process of sanctification will also experience glorification.

In Romans 8:29-30 it appears that the terms "conformed to the image of his son" and "glorified" are nearly synonymous [or closely related] expressions. Likewise, it appears that the expressions, "conformed to the image of his son" and "sanctified"/"sanctification" are nearly interchangeable [or closely related] terms. And, if this be true, it follows that the terms "sanctification" and glorification" are also nearly synonymous [or closely related] terms.

So the issue now turns upon the meaning of the word "glorified"["glorification"] and the question of its timing ... "is it [in the context of Romans 8:29-30] a process that begins at a believer's justification [as a result of their regeneration] ...and to be viewed as an "already" experience? ... or, "is it a futuristic state of being that will be achieved when the believer receives their glorified, resurrection bodies in the eternal, Heavenly realm ... and to be viewed as a "not yet" event?

What is indicated by the Greek word "doxazo" ["glorified"] being in the aorist in Romans 8:30?
Lexicon : Strong's G1392 - doxazo :
doxázo, dox-ad'-zo; from G1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application):—(make) glorify(-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.

Every verb in Romans 8:30 is in the aorist:

οὓς δὲ προώρισεν, τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν·
καὶ οὓς ἐκάλεσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν·
οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν.

Those whom he predestined, he also called;
and those whom he called, he also justified;
and those whom he justified, he also glorified.


(1) The "already" or "have been" glorified aspect/vantage point :

The Apostle Paul speaks of transformation into the glory of the Lord Jesus has already begun: “And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit” [2 Corinthians 3:18]. Peter informs believers that “the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you” [1 Peter 4:14].

The "already" view carries with it the central idea of Paul that believer's are "in Christ". Just as Jesus has been glorified, we are glorified. Contextually, these verses are about being conformed to the image of Christ, and part of that is to be glorified, i.e., to display the glory of God through our being a new creation. It has already happened in a real sense because we are in Christ, and Christ has been glorified, and we with him. To quote a representative of this view:

All these things, including "glorification", have happened already to and in Jesus, the Messiah; and what is true of the Messiah is true of his people. [N.T. Wright].

(2) The "not yet" or "will be" glorified aspect/vantage point :

The "not yet" view asserts that the aorist is used to indicate that, from the standpoint of God's decree, glorification [the redemption of the body] has already happened [but each believer must wait until the point of physical death [or the Rapture event] for it's reception].

Romans 8:23 -25 clearly reveals the futuristic aspect of glorification; these very verses are couched in the very context of, and set the stage for the two key phrases seen in verses 29 and 30 ... "he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son", and ... "them he also glorified."

Romans 8:23-25 :

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Glorification represents the culmination of salvation as the “redemption of our bodies” [Rom 8:23] and being “brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God” [Rom 8:21]. If justification means being freed from the penalty of sin, if transformation means being gradually freed from the power of sin, then glorification means to be freed from the presence of sin. The future “glory” means entrance into the new creation, to dwell in God’s new world, in God’s eschatological reign, among the glorified host of God’s people.

Concluding thoughts :

Many mistakenly believe, IMHO, that the issue at hand demands an "either/or" verdict of sorts. In other words, they believe that only one stream of scriptural truth must be true to the exclusion of the other stream [ in this case, those presented by the "already" or "not yet" advocates]. This type of "short-sightedness" robs a person of the ability to recognize, analyze, and harmonize all the scriptures on a given topic, and has unfortunately been applied time and time again in the arena of soteriology [and theology in general].

The glorification of the believer in Romans 8:30 should not be perceived as an "either/or" scenario, but rather as an "already/not yet" model of glorification; in this way both streams of scriptural truth are harmonized and best accommodated.

Although glorification is viewed as including a present sanctifying/transformational work of the Holy Spirit operating in the lives of believers, there is also a future aspect attached to it ... the redemption of the body. Therefore, sanctification, as well as the redemption of the body, are states that will be actualized in all of those who experience a justified status before God.

 

[GDL]

Post 999 responses not necessarily in order:

Ephesians 2:

• My preference for Ephesians 2:8-9 is to see that "this" or "that" refers back to the phrase "by grace you have been/are saved through faith" - so the gift is God's by grace salvation through faith. Some argue from here that faith is the gift, and they show examples in grammar why this is the case.

Faith and Obedience:

• Parallelism is also used to intensify, draw comparison, emphasize, elaborate.
• Review the verses including Romans 10 I referenced and see how the 2 words are being used interchangeably
• My reference to 1 John 3:23 is due to our being instructed that belief in Jesus Christ is commanded by God. What comes first, belief or obeying God's command to believe?
• We are instructed in Scripture that we both believe the Good News and obey the Good News. I'll leave you to find these verses.
• We're also told that salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ (Hebrews 5:9)
• Parallelism is quite common in Hebrew writings, and we have some of this carried over into the NT writers well-read in the Scriptures. One parallelism I normally recall pretty quickly is NKJ Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.
• Faith and obedience are indeed separate words and can be and are used separately, so your examples of replacing one with another don't prove the point.
• There has been a lot of work done on verses in the NT that have been translated as "faith in Christ" where the language is rather thought to be "faith of Christ." To answer your question about our faith vs. Christ's faith would take a lot of discussion that would also have to get into at minimum what the full scope of salvation is. Simply put in my current thinking, having done extensive study on both faith and salvation, the basis for our faith is the faith of Jesus Christ. Based upon Ephesians 2 at minimum it's simple to see that salvation is God's Plan that we enter into through faith in obedience to God's command to believe in His Son (whether or not we knew God has commanded this) and within His Plan, we work in faith/obedience with Him as He commands to accomplish our Salvation - His Plan (Philippians 2:12-13). Salvation is a process - we were saved, we're being saved, we will be saved. There's not one point along this process where our faith is not also our obedience. I leave it to Him to separate per His Word, where He says our work is specified by Him as being worthy of wages.

Re: John 1:12 we should take into account what the verse says. They were given power/authority to become children of God. BTW, the 1st clause and the 3rd clause are chiastic (parallel) - those who received Him / those who believe (are believing) in His name - to them He gave authority to become children of God. So, why does this not just say that they "became" children of God? Is or are there conditions in some sense to becoming children of God after receiving Him / believing in Him? I'm familiar with 1 John 3:2 and to whom John is writing. I'm also familiar with the fact that Scripture says God's children obey Him 1 John 3:10. These verses like John 1:12 are not as simplistic as some like to make them out to be and it is quite typical that they are worked out to see that they are correlated to obedience, which is also faith, and which is also directly correlated to love for God, neighbor, and one another.

I'm stopping here. If you'd like to discuss anything in particular, let's please keep it more focused.

Thanks!

 

[GDL]

A lot of systematic theological writing. How about a point at a time?

 

[GDL]

I've glanced through posts 1003-1006.

There is simply way too much to address. It seems to me that much of what is being stated in the context of the OP is whether: (1) All who initially believe will be saved at the end per OSAS soteriology; (2) one can fall away and lose salvation after initial belief; (3) there are some who profess belief but never really believed.

Whether this is approached though discussion about election, justification, sanctification, salvation, etc..., it still involves interpretation usually pursuant to which varied soteriological systems one was schooled under.

I'm left wondering whether or not anyone will pick an area of Scripture like the Romans 10 and Ephesians 2 ones that have been and always are brought into this discussion topic and just focus on what the Text says and doesn't say apart from using other Scriptures pursuant to their favored interpretive systems.

 

[Clare73]

.
Faith and Obedience:

(post #996)
True faith saves.
True faith obeys.

But it is not faith's obedience which saves, it is only faith itself, apart from faith's works which saves (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2).

And that's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:2;
1 Corinthians 1:29).
For God neither gives to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8)

Having been to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20-21; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), but which necessary obedience (faith's works) leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification (not salvation or justification), and which sanctification is God's will for the believer.
(1 Thessalonians 4:3)

One either believes the clear and unequivocal Biblical testimony above, or tries to unseat it.

 

[GDL]

But it is faith and obedience that saves, because faith and obedience are used interchangeably in the Text, and because people have been commanded to believe in Christ, so their faith and obedience are simultaneous and, again, interchangeable, and because the writers of Scripture speak interchangeably of obeying the Gospel and believing the Gospel, and the writer of Hebrews 5 says salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ. And then there's the discussion of applying context to Scriptures speaking of salvation, because salvation is a broader topic in the Text than just what happens when one first believes as commanded by God, whether or not they are aware of the command.

 

[Danthemailman]

But it is faith and obedience that saves, because faith and obedience are used interchangeably in the Text, and because people have been commanded to believe in Christ, so their faith and obedience are simultaneous and, again, interchangeable, and because the writers of Scripture speak interchangeably of obeying the Gospel and believing the Gospel, and the writer of Hebrews 5 says salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ. And then there's the discussion of applying context to Scriptures speaking of salvation, because salvation is a broader topic in the Text than just what happens when one first believes as commanded by God, whether or not they are aware of the command.

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Roman’s 1:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/good works which “follow.”

 

[LoveGodsWord]

• Romans 10 makes the case for Biblical Faith for salvation (future) being much more than the oversimplified and one-time belief supported by some. We come to faith/obedience/confession by the work of God in grace drawing us by teaching us (John 6) and we remain/abide (John 15 commands) and grow in this condition (2 Peter 3:17-18 command vs. the opposite = falling away) in God’s Salvation Plan and Process until we take our last breath here.

Great post Gary! The whole post not only the small section here was a nice outline of Romans 10 on faith not being separated from obedience to Gods' Word and that we have the hope of God's promise of eternal life today as we believe and follow Gods' Word but we do not receive the promise of eternal life until our life on earth is over and our faith has been tested. I am just waking up so have a bit of catching up to do. Some further interesting scriptures on the hope we have now that we receive once our time on earth is over.

WE HAVE NOW IS THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE TODAY

• TITUS 1:1-2 [1], Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of THE TRUTH WHICH IS AFTER GODLINESS; [2], IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

• TITUS 3:7 [7], That being justified by his grace, WE SHOULD BE MADE HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE.

• COLOSSIANS 1:23 [23], IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH grounded and settled, AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

• 1 JOHN 3:3 [3], And every man that has this HOPE IN HIM purifies himself, even as he is pure.

• 1 PETER 3:15 [15], But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU with meekness and fear

• 1 PETER 1:21 [21], Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; THAT YOUR FAITH AND HOPE MIGHT BE IN GOD.

• HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM TO THE END.

• HEBREWS 6:11 [11], And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of HOPE TO THE END

• JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE WE MUST ENDURE TEMPTATION AND BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD TO THE END

• MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

• MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

• HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

• HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

• COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23 [12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins..... [23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

• JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

• HEBREWS 3:12-14 [12], Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

• ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

God bless

 

[klutedavid]

Please forgive me dear friend as I do not believe you. According to the scriptures genuine faith and works are not separate from each other. Genuine faith in God's Word is obedience to what Gods' Word says. Let's consider all the scripture you have posted here (not some of it) and the full scripture and chapter context if it might be helpful.

James 2:14-26
[14], What does it profit, my brothers, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

• Note the question being asked can faith without works save anyone? James goes on to answer this question in the rest of the chapter.

[15], If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[16], And one of you say to them, Depart in peace, be you warmed and filled; notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit?

• Note James provides the example of someone who has no clothes or food and a person saying to them be warm and full of food without giving them food and clothes. How does this help the person who needs food and clothes?

[17], Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

• Note the response of James. Just like saying to the naked and hungry be warmed and filled without giving them food and clothes, faith if it does not have action is dead (not true faith) being alone. James continues...

[18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

• Note: James is showing that genuine faith is not separate from our actions and it is our actions that demonstrate if we have genuine faith or not.

[19], You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20], But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

• Note: James goes on to show that there is a difference between genuine faith which is not separate from our actions and dead faith that has no action and compare it to the dead faith of devils in [19-20]

[21], Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son on the altar?

• Note: Abraham's faith led him to action by following what Gods' Word said in making an offering our of his own son. Now note all the above is the context to your claim of faith without works which is stating the opposite of what you are claiming here.

[22], See you how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

• Note: James here is continuing what has already been shared in the scriptures so far by using Abraham's example of believing Gods' Word and obeying Gods' Word to offer up his son as an offering showing that it was Abraham's obedience to Gods' Word that made his faith perfect.

[23], And the scripture was fulfilled which said, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24], You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

• Note: James is showing here that genuine faith and what it means to truly believe God is to believe and obey what Gods' Word says.

[25], Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26], For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

..................

Conclusion: James is showing in full scripture context of James 2:14-26 that genuine faith in Gods Word is not separate from action and that if we have faith in God's Word we will believe and obey what God's Word says. Therefore faith is not separate from obedience to God's Word. Genuine faith is obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils.

Take Care.

Good post LGW, well explained. Yet LGW, your post is fundamentally incorrect.

The gospel remains the same though, regardless of what you have been taught.

I warn you now LGW, to read the next verse, ever so carefully.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.

I will break this verse (Ephesians 2:8) into clauses.

FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED...

Did you read that clause LGW?

BY GRACE YOU HAVE...

Can you really see the first phrase?

BY GRACE...

Never ever, utter that phrase again, 'saved by faith'. That phrase of yours can be very misleading on it's own. In fact, to say 'saved by faith plus works', is heresy and ignores the core of the gospel.

BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH...

Anyone who thinks that they are involved in that process of atonement, the reconciliation of Christ, is deeply deceived. By God's grace we are saved and only by God's grace.

Now, more importantly for the next phrase in Ephesians 2:8.

AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES...

Now can you see why we cannot say, 'faith plus works'. Because LGW, we must precede all statements about faith by the clause, 'BY GRACE...'. Which absolutely removes any works, obedience, or anything else, from that free gift of salvation.

IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...

IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...

IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...

IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...

This is what you wrote LGW,

'according to the scriptures genuine faith and works are not separate from each other'

You misunderstand the gospel of Jesus Christ. FOR BY GRACE you have been saved...

 

[klutedavid]

Yep! And faith is always by grace and no other way, because it is a gift! (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48; Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3). It not of our own doing.

Salvation is by faith alone in terms of faith's works, it is the only the faith itself which saves, not faith's works: "by grace through faith, not by works." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Your hitting the mark. Well done. We are always saved by grace first and then we add, through faith!

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

Galatians 1:6
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel,

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I've glanced through posts 1003-1006.

There is simply way too much to address. It seems to me that much of what is being stated in the context of the OP is whether: (1) All who initially believe will be saved at the end per OSAS soteriology; (2) one can fall away and lose salvation after initial belief; (3) there are some who profess belief but never really believed.

Whether this is approached though discussion about election, justification, sanctification, salvation, etc..., it still involves interpretation usually pursuant to which varied soteriological systems one was schooled under.

I'm left wondering whether or not anyone will pick an area of Scripture like the Romans 10 and Ephesians 2 ones that have been and always are brought into this discussion topic and just focus on what the Text says and doesn't say apart from using other Scriptures pursuant to their favored interpretive systems.

Thanks this is exactly what the OP is stating and the points being made here! Thanks for sharing your posts here Gary they are very useful to the OP topic and the discussion in spot on

God bless

 

[GDL]

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Roman’s 1:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/good works which “follow.”

On the surface, I agree with your first sentence. I would just tighten it up a bit and say, "We obey the Gospel when we choose to believe the Gospel" or vice-versa "We believe the Gospel when we choose to obey the Gospel" IOW our belief is obedience, and our obedience is belief. Admittedly, the first rendition is easier to discuss, because few in my experience have made the obedience connection to faith at least in thinking through the simple, logical reasoning of 1 John 3:23.

You probably know this, but there are some who will say you're wrong because there is no choice involved in faith, and choice is a work. And these I speak of are not interpretations of those in the pews, but those in academia & in pulpits.

I've addressed before the way you state obedience/works in your second sentence and why I don't agree with you. I don't see our Text calling "obedience" "works." I see you making the error that obedience to God is a work and then carrying this error into discussions about "works salvation."

There is plenty of Scripture drawing the parallel between faith and obedience. I'm not aware of any that use obedience and works interchangeably. So, once again, I don't agree with your expression of obedience/good works assuming I'm thinking correctly that you are making them interchangeable.

I do agree with you re: Not to be confused with multiple acts of (delete "obedience/") good works which follow. I see this clearly in Ephesians 2 where we're told God creating us in Christ Jesus and God creating good works for us to do, are accomplished by God alone before we can do those good works.

As I said in an earlier post going through Ephesians 2, Paul is really just excluding our work there, because there is nothing we did or could have done to save ourselves from our dead, disobedient, under God's wrath condition. Salvation is God's Plan and His Plan alone, and we enter into this Salvation by God's work & grace gift through faith, which He commands us to do by commanding we believe in His Son - whereby our faith is also our obedience to His command.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Good post LGW, well explained. Yet LGW, your post is fundamentally incorrect.

The gospel remains the same though, regardless of what you have been taught.

I warn you now LGW, to read the next verse, ever so carefully.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.

I will break this verse (Ephesians 2:8) into clauses.

FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED...

Did you read that clause LGW?

BY GRACE YOU HAVE...

Can you really see the first phrase?

BY GRACE...

Never ever, utter that phrase again, 'saved by faith'. That phrase of yours can be very misleading on it's own. In fact, to say 'saved by faith plus works', is heresy and ignores the core of the gospel.

BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH...

Anyone who thinks that they are involved in that process of atonement, the reconciliation of Christ, is deeply deceived. By God's grace we are saved and only by God's grace.

Now, more importantly for the next phrase in Ephesians 2:8.

AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES...

Now can you see why we cannot say, 'faith plus works'. Because LGW, we must precede all statements about faith by the clause, 'BY GRACE...'. Which absolutely removes any works, obedience, or anything else, from that free gift of salvation.

IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...

IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...

IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...

IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...

This is what you wrote LGW,

'according to the scriptures genuine faith and works are not separate from each other'

You misunderstand the gospel of Jesus Christ. FOR BY GRACE you have been saved...

Sorry dear friend but I have not misunderstood anything and your only misrepresenting what I believe here in your post without addressing anything in the post you are quoting from except to say it is a good post. Post # 990 linked shows why I disagree with your earlier claims here of faith alone and shows that genuine faith is demonstrated in obedience to Gods' Word. They are not separate. I have posted to you many times what I believe in regards to Ephesians 2:8-9 and I will post it again not for you because you seem to ignore what I share with you but will post it here for everyone else to see and ask you what it is you disagree with.

According to the scriptures, I believe we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word.

You may also want to consider that according to the scriptures, God has given us His grace so that we can be obedient to the faith (the Word) as shown in Romans 1:5 and that the reason God has given us His grace is to teach us to deny ungodliness (sin) and worldly lusts, so that we can live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world *Titus 1:11-12. Gods' grace therefore is not a license to disobedience and sin but just like faith is not separate from obedience to Gods' Word neither is Gods' grace which all receive through faith.

Now what is it in this post that you disagree with and why? (scripture please). Let's stop with the personal accusations and have a friendly discussion.

Take Care.

 

[klutedavid]

But it is faith and obedience that saves, because faith and obedience are used interchangeably in the Text, and because people have been commanded to believe in Christ, so their faith and obedience are simultaneous and, again, interchangeable, and because the writers of Scripture speak interchangeably of obeying the Gospel and believing the Gospel, and the writer of Hebrews 5 says salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ. And then there's the discussion of applying context to Scriptures speaking of salvation, because salvation is a broader topic in the Text than just what happens when one first believes as commanded by God, whether or not they are aware of the command.

Saved by grace through faith...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Saved by grace through faith...

See post # 1018 linked.