WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[klutedavid]

Some assert that subsequent to regeneration, the believer is placed into some type of probationary period in which they may or may not successfully complete. That is, if they remain faithful [or "faithful enough"], then they will ultimately secure for themselves a future entrance into heaven. However, I believe the scriptural evidence supports the claim that God will preserve the faith of all genuine believers, He will successfully keep and lead them to their heavenly inheritance.

1 Peter 1:6-7,"In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you
have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more
precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise,
honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,"

If a person has truly trusted in Christ's substitutionary death and subsequent
resurrection from the grave for the forgiveness of their sins, they have experienced saving faith [and have received eternal life by virtue of having been placed into union with Christ - the embodiment of eternal life].

"In this you greatly rejoice" [v.6]:

The critical question that needs to be pondered here is: "If any genuine follower of
Christ will ever fail these trials to the destruction of their souls [the forfeiture of
their salvation], then how could the possibility of rejoicing in them even exist?... they simply could not! After all, the eternal destiny of their souls are yet to be determined, that is, if any one of them will actually fail the test.

There is a worldly saying that goes like this, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
Biblically speaking, we may often ask ourselves, "what is the purpose of our trials and tribulations?"...quite frankly, there are many times that I grow very weary of them.

Think of trials as training! God has to train His troops. Have you ever heard of any staff sergeant who got to where he was without going through tough situations? God has to prepare His children for the future.

“A gem cannot be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials.”

“Being on a spiritual path does not prevent you from facing the darkness, but it teaches you how to use the darkness as a tool to grow.”

The endurance of our faith, despite the many rigorous trials, evidences and provides the true [saving] nature of our faith ... it's genuineness. The failure to endure reveals the counterfeit/spurious nature of a person's profession of faith.

“Trials teach us what we are; they dig up the soil, and let us see what we are made of.” – Charles Spurgeon. God already knows what we are made of, but do we? Do we personally possess the assurance that we are His child? [Romans 8:16].

So, in the end, we discover that what is really the most important question in any person's life is not, " Will I actually forfeit [lose] my salvation?", but instead, "Have I actually been born-gain?, that is, am I actually a new creation in Christ?" [John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5-7; 2 Corinthians 5:17].

Puzzling clause, "they have experienced saving faith".

Have a read of Ephesians 2:8-10

By grace you have been saved...through faith.

By grace you have been saved...

By grace...

There is no such thing as a, 'saving faith'?

We are always are saved by the grace of Jesus and only the grace of Jesus.

By grace alone, not faith alone.

 

[GDL]

In English translations there are many instances of "by faith" dealing with aspects of salvation. By grace through faith is how we receive the gift of salvation per the one verse being quoted. Even then, the critique is questionable. God's Salvation Plan was developed by God in His grace and mercy and love, is gifted by God by His grace and in His mercy and love but is only appropriated by people through and by faith. Grace precedes faith but is not appropriated without faith.

I don't understand the issue, especially when we read more than one verse and apply all that are applicable. I do question a lot of translations, though.

For instance, In Ephesians 2:8, "by" Grace is an interpretive choice made by the translator(s) as "by" does not specifically exist in the original. Also "through" faith is a similar interpretive choice and one of the proper translation choices for the word translated as "through" is "by."

 

[klutedavid]

In English translations there are many instances of "by faith" dealing with aspects of salvation. By grace through faith is how we receive the gift of salvation per the one verse being quoted. Even then, the critique is questionable. God's Salvation Plan was developed by God in His grace and mercy and love, is gifted by God by His grace and in His mercy and love but is only appropriated by people through and by faith. Grace precedes faith but is not appropriated without faith.

I don't understand the issue, especially when we read more than one verse and apply all that are applicable. I do question a lot of translations, though.

Galatians 1:6
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel,

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Ephesians 4:7
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

Want some more?

 

[Rapture Bound]

klutedavid stated [post #1021], "Puzzling clause, "they have experienced saving faith".

My reply :

It's simply another way of saying that they have been justified before God. "by grace, through faith"... both the grace of God and the faith of the individual must exist in order for a person to be justified.

 

[klutedavid]

In English translations there are many instances of "by faith" dealing with aspects of salvation. By grace through faith is how we receive the gift of salvation per the one verse being quoted. Even then, the critique is questionable. God's Salvation Plan was developed by God in His grace and mercy and love, is gifted by God by His grace and in His mercy and love but is only appropriated by people through and by faith. Grace precedes faith but is not appropriated without faith.

I don't understand the issue, especially when we read more than one verse and apply all that are applicable. I do question a lot of translations, though.

the phrase, 'saved by faith', does not appear in the scripture. Not once.

'saved by faith and works', also does not occur and not even once.

Here is a clause that appears in the scripture.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

 

[klutedavid]

klutedavid stated [post #1021], "Puzzling clause, "they have experienced saving faith".

My reply :

It's simply another way of saying that they have been justified before God. "by grace, through faith"... both the grace of God and the faith of the individual must exist in order for a person to be justified.

Not exactly.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Danthemailman]

On the surface, I agree with your first sentence. I would just tighten it up a bit and say, "We obey the Gospel when we choose to believe the Gospel" or vice-versa "We believe the Gospel when we choose to obey the Gospel" IOW our belief is obedience, and our obedience is belief. Admittedly, the first rendition is easier to discuss, because few in my experience have made the obedience connection to faith at least in thinking through the simple, logical reasoning of 1 John 3:23.

You probably know this, but there are some who will say you're wrong because there is no choice involved in faith, and choice is a work. And these I speak of are not interpretations of those in the pews, but those in academia & in pulpits.

I've addressed before the way you state obedience/works in your second sentence and why I don't agree with you. I don't see our Text calling "obedience" "works." I see you making the error that obedience to God is a work and then carrying this error into discussions about "works salvation."

There is plenty of Scripture drawing the parallel between faith and obedience. I'm not aware of any that use obedience and works interchangeably. So, once again, I don't agree with your expression of obedience/good works assuming I'm thinking correctly that you are making them interchangeable.

I do agree with you re: Not to be confused with multiple acts of (delete "obedience/") good works which follow. I see this clearly in Ephesians 2 where we're told God creating us in Christ Jesus and God creating good works for us to do, are accomplished by God alone before we can do those good works.

As I said in an earlier post going through Ephesians 2, Paul is really just excluding our work there, because there is nothing we did or could have done to save ourselves from our dead, disobedient, under God's wrath condition. Salvation is God's Plan and His Plan alone, and we enter into this Salvation by God's work & grace gift through faith, which He commands us to do by commanding we believe in His Son - whereby our faith is also our obedience to His command.

Your post is a little confusing. So you don’t agree that acts of obedience accomplished after we have been saved through faith are works? You simply define good works as faith?

 

[klutedavid]

Your post is a little confusing. So you don’t agree that acts of obedience accomplished after we have been saved through faith are works? You simply define good works as faith?

Your not the only one that is confused.

 

[Rapture Bound]

klutedavid [post #1026] replied,

"Not exactly.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."

My response :

I hope you are not implying that a person can be justified before God apart from possessing a personal faith; one which trusts in Christ's atoning work preformed on their behalf.

 

[Clare73]

Puzzling clause, "they have experienced saving faith".
Have a read of Ephesians 2:8-10
By grace you have been saved...through faith.
By grace you have been saved...
By grace...
There is no such thing as a, 'saving faith'?

There is no saving without faith (Ephesians 2:8-9),
there is no saving with the wrong faith (Romans 3:25),
so the right faith which is necessary for saving (Romans 3:25) can correctly be called "saving faith."

"Saving faith," distinguishes it from all other kinds of faith,
from counterfeit faith (Matthew 7:21-23), to faith in Buddha, etc., and even to a faith in the God of the Bible which denies Jesus Christ, making it not a "saving faith."

We are always are saved by the grace of Jesus and only the grace of Jesus.

We are not saved by the grace of Jesus without faith in Jesus.

By grace alone, not faith alone.

Grace is the cause of everything in the Christian, from new birth to glorification.
That is understood.
But that salvation by grace is through faith, apart from, not by that faith's works (Ephesians 2:9).
And as stated in post #1010:

That's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:2;
1 Corinthians 1:29).
For God neither gives to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8)

Having been to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20-21; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), but which necessary obedience (faith's works) leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification (not salvation or justification), and which sanctification is God's will for the believer.
(1 Thessalonians 4:3)

Salvation by faith alone presumes grace, but excludes the works of that saving faith, only the faith itself saves, "not by works," (Ephesians 2:9).

It is the same with justification (righteousness), which is by grace, and which Paul teaches is also by faith, apart from faith's works/obedience (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5), only the faith itself justifies.

Saved by faith, not by faith's works. . .and justified by faith, apart from faith's works is NT authoritative apostolic teaching.

 

[Clare73]

the phrase, 'saved by faith', does not appear in the scripture. Not once.
'saved by faith and works', also does not occur and not even once.
Here is a clause that appears in the scripture.
Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

And the rest of the story is in v. 25:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood."

 

[klutedavid]

There is no saving without faith,
there is no saving with the wrong faith,
so the right faith which is necessary for saving can correctly be called "saving faith."

"Saving faith," distinguishes it from all other kinds of faith,
from counterfeit faith to faith in Buddha, and even faith in YHWH which denies Jesus Christ, making it not a "saving faith."

We are not saved by the grace of Jesus without faith in Jesus Christ.

Grace is the cause of everything in the Christian, from new birth to glorification.
That is understood.
But that salvation by grace is through faith, apart from, not by that faith's works (Ephesians 2:9).
And as stated in post #1010:

That's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:2;
1 Corinthians 1:29).
For God neither gives to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8)

Having been to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20-21; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), but which necessary obedience (faith's works) leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification (not salvation or justification), and which sanctification is God's will for the believer.
(1 Thessalonians 4:3)

Salvation by faith alone presumes grace, but excludes the works of that saving faith, only the faith itself saves, "not by works," (Ephesians 2:9).

It is the same with justification (righteousness), which is by grace, and which Paul teaches is also by faith, apart from faith's works/obedience (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5), only the faith itself justifies.

Saved by faith, not by faith's works. . .and justified by faith, apart from faith's works is NT authoritative apostolic teaching.

Yet the measure of faith is a gift and by God's grace.

The gift of salvation is a free gift and is administered by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith itself is in situ in the creation itself. A scientist can have faith and a strong faith, in the scientific methodology. But that faith will not grant salvation to that scientist.

A holy, religious man, can have a powerful faith in God, yet not be granted salvation. Because it is by Jesus Christ alone.

Salvation is granted as a gift to humanity.

Salvation is by grace alone, through Christ alone.

BY GRACE YOU ARE SAVED through faith...

Faith never can presume grace, for we are saved by grace in the first and every instance.

Romans 5:2
Through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.

We stand by grace alone and not by any measure of faith.

 

[Rapture Bound]

klutedavid replied [post #1032] ,"Salvation is by grace alone, through Christ alone."

My reply :

So are you saying that a person's faith can completely be left out of the equation, and yet that person is still considered justified in the eyes of God?

Here's my position on the issue :

(1) God’s grace as the source of the believer’s justification.

(2) The nature of justification as a judicial verdict, by which God grants to sinners a new righteous status, on the basis of Christ’s death.

(3) Faith, trust in Christ, as the sole instrument through which God’s grace of justification is received.

This post expounds upon my 3 key points < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >
[post #79].

 

[klutedavid]

And the rest of the story is in v. 25:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood."

Let's put those two verses together, so we don't miss the point.

Romans 3:24-5
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith and this is not of yourselves...(Ephesians 2:8)

Check the clauses in Romans 3:24-25

"Justified as a gift"

"Justified as a gift by His grace"

Justified as a gift by His grace, is the same as, BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED.

Whether or not you have a faith in Jesus or not. You can only ever be saved by the grace of God.

The instrument through which that abundant grace of God is channeled, is through the instrument of that faith.

That faith is not your own, it is a gift, the same as the gifts of salvation and love.

You can take your faith for a walk, exercise your faith, but you exist by the grace of God.

There but by the grace of God, go I.

 

[klutedavid]

klutedavid replied [post #1032] ,"Salvation is by grace alone, through Christ alone."

My reply :

So are you saying that a person's faith can completely be left out of the equation, and yet that person is still considered justified in the eyes of God?

Here's my position on the issue :

(1) God’s grace as the source of the believer’s justification.

(2) The nature of justification as a judicial verdict, by which God grants to sinners a new righteous status, on the basis of Christ’s death.

(3) Faith, trust in Christ, as the sole instrument through which God’s grace of justification is received.

This post expounds upon my 3 key points < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >
[post #79].

Looks solid enough.

By grace alone through Christ alone.

Grace preempts faith.

Faith can vary from day to day, faith can be a fickle thing.

God grace is eternal, unchanging, forged in fire.

Jesus Christ is the first and the last, in all conversations.

God's grace will always be the first cause and God's grace, the final effect.

All the glory and grace belongs to Jesus Christ alone.

 

[Clare73]

Yet the measure of faith is a gift and by God's grace.
The gift of salvation is a free gift and is administered by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faith itself is in situ in the creation itself. A scientist can have faith and a strong faith, in the scientific methodology. But that faith will not grant salvation to that scientist.

A holy, religious man, can have a powerful faith in God, yet not be granted salvation. Because it is by Jesus Christ alone.
Salvation is granted as a gift to humanity.
Salvation is by grace alone, through (faith) Christ alone.

In the above, are you not both adding to and subtracting from the word of God (Ephesians 2:8-9) following:

BY GRACE YOU ARE SAVED through faith... (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Faith never can presume grace, for we are saved by grace in the first and every instance.

Of course faith can't presume grace, faith does not exist without grace, so how could it presume anything if it does not exist?
Likewise, a falling rock never can presume gravity, for landing is by gravity in the first and every instance.

Romans 5:2
Through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.

We stand by grace alone and not by any measure of faith.

You've gone off the rail.

 

[GDL]

Saved by grace through faith...

I added a bit about translation of by grace through faith:

For instance, In Ephesians 2:8, "by" Grace is an interpretive choice made by the translator(s) as "by" does not specifically exist in the original. Also "through" faith is a similar interpretive choice and one of the proper translation choices for the word translated as "through" is "by."

Point being, you're betting too much on English translations of phrases that can be appropriately translated in other ways. You are saved [in] grace by faith is another way to translate this and there are other ways also.

Your post is a little confusing. So you don’t agree that acts of obedience accomplished after we have been saved through faith are works? You simply define good works as faith?

Your not the only one that is confused.

That's what I and others have been trying to tell you, you're confused

I do agree that good works done in faith/obedience can only be done after we have received/believe in Jesus Christ to appropriate God's grace gift of salvation whereby He makes us alive in Christ.

No, I don't define good works as faith.

If I were to define good works on the fly based upon Ephesians 2, I would define or explain them as works created by God in [eternity] past to be done by His faithfully obedient / obediently faithful children who He created in Christ Jesus and made alive from their dead, disobedient, under wrath condition which they existed in prior to His giving them in grace life in Christ through/by faith.

My point to Daniel is that you are making obedience works by your "obedience/works" writing. But obedience is not works and as I have detailed, faith and obedience are used interchangeably in Scripture, but I do not see where obedience and works are used interchangeably. Good works are done by a Christian in faith/obedience to God.

Granted, there are no good works apart from faith/obedience and without good works we are not in faith/obedience, but God clearly separates faith/obedience and works in Ephesians 2 where He explains that His Salvation Plan and actions are His work and not ours.

I see James teaching us something vital about Biblical Faith/Obedience. If [good] works are not being done, then it is not Biblical Faith/Obedience. And Paul agrees with this in Ephesians 2 where he identifies that God created us in Christ Jesus for good works. Paul agrees with James about faith + works. Paul is simply clarifying in Ephesians 2 that the works part of our faith/obedience is not how we appropriate God's Salvation that only God Planned and only God sovereignly, graciously, and mercifully administrates.

Paul's discussions elsewhere regarding works of law and works of righteousness are dealing with issues pertaining to the old age. They are connected to this discussion in Ephesians 2, but they're dealing with another layer and issue about works.

To paraphrase for explanation:

• James teaches that faith must have works or it is not Faith, but dead faith. This is foundational instruction about Faith. And James also ties this to obedience when He discusses law.
• Paul agrees, but clarifies where and when the works are applicable and when they're not
• Paul elsewhere must deal with more confusion and dig deeper into the works and law issue when he has to instruct about faith vs. works of law and works of righteousness to correct those being drawn back into circumcision and law-keeping for salvation
• One set of instructions deals with salvation being God's Plan and not ours and clearly specifies that we only do good works after God makes us alive in Christ
• We further use this instruction as Paul clarifies that we did not enter into and will not complete salvation through the old circumcision and sacrificial system under subjection to law
• When this is studied, this is not new information, and some understood from the Tanakh that salvation was always through/by faith and not works of law or works of righteousness we have done. Thus, for instance, the discussions about the faith of Abraham and the coming of His descendant Jesus Christ.
• Our instruction is layered and as I recall, the first NT letter written was James.
• If we let James have his say about Faith and then let Paul clarify and expound, and we don't pit them against one-another, or try to discredit one vs. the other, then I think things begin to make sense.

If still confused or don't agree, I guess we can try to narrow this down further, but it will probably be verse specific one section of Scripture at a time.

 

[Clare73]

Let's put those two verses together, so we don't miss the point.

Romans 3:24-5
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

However, "as a gift" is not in the Greek, and "in" is "by" in the Greek.

BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED

through faith and this is not of yourselves...(Ephesians 2:8)
Check the clauses in Romans 3:24-25
"Justified as a gift"
"Justified as a gift by His grace"
Justified as a gift by His grace, is the same as, BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED.
Whether or not you have a faith in Jesus or not. You can only ever be saved by the grace of God.

It is impossible to have faith in Jesus without the grace of God.
You are never saved by Jesus without faith in him.

You have become contra-Biblical and non-sensical.
That's above my pay grade.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I added a bit about translation of by grace through faith:



Point being, you're betting too much on English translations of phrases that can be appropriately translated in other ways. You are saved [in] grace by faith is another way to translate this and there are other ways also.




That's what I and others have been trying to tell you, you're confused

I do agree that good works done in faith/obedience can only be done after we have received/believe in Jesus Christ to appropriate God's grace gift of salvation whereby He makes us alive in Christ.

No, I don't define good works as faith.

If I were to define good works on the fly based upon Ephesians 2, I would define or explain them as works created by God in [eternity] past to be done by His faithfully obedient / obediently faithful children who He created in Christ Jesus and made alive from their dead, disobedient, under wrath condition which they existed in prior to His giving them in grace life in Christ through/by faith.

My point to Daniel is that you are making obedience works by your "obedience/works" writing. But obedience is not works and as I have detailed, faith and obedience are used interchangeably in Scripture, but I do not see where obedience and works are used interchangeably. Good works are done by a Christian in faith/obedience to God.

Granted, there are no good works apart from faith/obedience and without good works we are not in faith/obedience, but God clearly separates faith/obedience and works in Ephesians 2 where He explains that His Salvation Plan and actions are His work and not ours.

I see James teaching us something vital about Biblical Faith/Obedience. If [good] works are not being done, then it is not Biblical Faith/Obedience. And Paul agrees with this in Ephesians 2 where he identifies that God created us in Christ Jesus for good works. Paul agrees with James about faith + works. Paul is simply clarifying in Ephesians 2 that the works part of our faith/obedience is not how we appropriate God's Salvation that only God Planned and only God sovereignly, graciously, and mercifully administrates.

Paul's discussions elsewhere regarding works of law and works of righteousness are dealing with issues pertaining to the old age. They are connected to this discussion in Ephesians 2, but they're dealing with another layer and issue about works.

To paraphrase for explanation:

• James teaches that faith must have works or it is not Faith, but dead faith. This is foundational instruction about Faith. And James also ties this to obedience when He discusses law.
• Paul agrees, but clarifies where and when the works are applicable and when they're not
• Paul elsewhere must deal with more confusion and dig deeper into the works and law issue when he has to instruct about faith vs. works of law and works of righteousness to correct those being drawn back into circumcision and law-keeping for salvation
• One set of instructions deals with salvation being God's Plan and not ours and clearly specifies that we only do good works after God makes us alive in Christ
• We further use this instruction as Paul clarifies that we did not enter into and will not complete salvation through the old circumcision and sacrificial system under subjection to law
• When this is studied, this is not new information, and some understood from the Tanakh that salvation was always through/by faith and not works of law or works of righteousness we have done. Thus, for instance, the discussions about the faith of Abraham and the coming of His descendant Jesus Christ.
• Our instruction is layered and as I recall, the first NT letter written was James.
• If we let James have his say about Faith and then let Paul clarify and expound, and we don't pit them against one-another, or try to discredit one vs. the other, then I think things begin to make sense.

If still confused or don't agree, I guess we can try to narrow this down further, but it will probably be verse specific one section of Scripture at a time.

I agree with everyone here there is indeed a lot of confusion in regard to the plain reading of the scriptures

 

[GDL]

Want some more?

No thanks. I have some very powerful exegetically oriented software I've used for 2-3 decades now. I made my point about English translations earlier.

As I said "by" grace is a translational choice. With the Greek wording per one Greek Grammar textbook, we have 27 choices of how to translate this phrase. Through some work, we can narrow this down, of course, but I will tell you that once we do, even then the few choices are debated.

Also, as I said, "through" faith is a translational choice. Additionally, what does "through" tell us and can it be translated differently for more precision? "Through" can be signifying a few different meanings. If we're going to debate whether it should be translated as through, or by, or something else, I'd want to discuss it at a more specific and detailed level.

Then there's the still debated after all these years word, words, or phrase and concept being specified by the word "that" or "this" not of yourselves... What is the gift? Is it grace, faith, by grace salvation through faith, or does it mean something is simply being emphasized? Some say from this verse that faith is the gift, yet at the most basic level of translation, this does not seem correct, and many exegetes are adamant that it is not.

We may think we're going to work this out here, but from what I've seen, most here are not geared up in Greek exegesis. And those that are still debate this verse. I've already given earlier a more general understanding of what's being said in Ephesians 2.