WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[klutedavid]

No thanks. I have some very powerful exegetically oriented software I've used for 2-3 decades now. I made my point about English translations earlier.

As I said "by" grace is a translational choice. With the Greek wording per one Greek Grammar textbook, we have 27 choices of how to translate this phrase. Through some work, we can narrow this down, of course, but I will tell you that once we do, even then the few choices are debated.

Also, as I said, "through" faith is a translational choice. Additionally, what does "through" tell us and can it be translated differently for more precision? "Through" can be signifying a few different meanings. If we're going to debate whether it should be translated as through, or by, or something else, I'd want to discuss it at a more specific and detailed level.

Then there's the still debated after all these years word, words, or phrase and concept being specified by the word "that" or "this" not of yourselves... What is the gift? Is it grace, faith, by grace salvation through faith, or does it mean something is simply being emphasized? Some say from this verse that faith is the gift, yet at the most basic level of translation, this does not seem correct, and many exegetes are adamant that it is not.

We may think we're going to work this out here, but from what I've seen, most here are not geared up in Greek exegesis. And those that are still debate this verse. I've already given earlier a more general understanding of what's being said in Ephesians 2.

If 'by' is a translation choice, why does every translation, some thirty of them, use 'by'. Only one translation avoided using, 'by'.

The other word you mentioned below.

through
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

No choice to made, as far as, the preposition, 'dia', is concerned.

What are you talking about?

How about you print your translation of Ephesians 2:8, saves me searching through post after post.
Keep it simple, just your translation of that verse.

 

[klutedavid]

I agree with everyone here there is indeed a lot of confusion in regard to the plain reading of the scriptures

I second that.

The plain reading of the scripture is below.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So easy LGW.

 

[GDL]

If 'by' is a translation choice, why does every translation, some thirty of them, use 'by'. Only one translation avoided using, 'by'.

The other word you mentioned below.

through
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

No choice to made, as far as, the preposition, 'dia', is concerned.

What are you talking about?

How about you print your translation of Ephesians 2:8, saves me searching through post after post.
Keep it simple, just your translation of that verse.

It's simple to say, "keep it simple" and it is simple once it's truly understood. I've pointed out that some of these things are not so simple. In fact, they are debated among people who are very learned in the original languages of Scripture. What you'll find the more you understand the languages issues, is that many of the phrases like you identify ("some thirty of them") simply take a very generalized and ambiguous approach to translation. We're discussing one example here. Another very common one is the word "of." Typically, this is a construction that has about 32 different nuances in meaning. These structures provide a very detailed and precise meaning in Greek, which is very different than English. As I was instructed in language studies decades ago, sometimes it takes a paragraph to explain a Greek word. I've experienced this reality in my own work several times.

Let's reverse the request here. Why don't you explain what you think "by grace" means? You're taking a very strong position on this matter, even demanding how someone else interprets and speaks the phrase in its context. Surely you must be able to explain precisely what "by grace" means and explain why it's the accurate translation.

A little advance consideration: NKJ Titus 2:11-13 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

• This is another of Paul's writings in which he speaks of "grace"
• I'm not going to address or even look beyond most of the English used here
• "The grace of God" has that structure I mentioned above.
  • What does "of" mean here? Please know it is an insertion by the translators and is not specifically in the Text. If translations were more detailed, for one thing there would be a lot more use of italics to signify that a word has been inserted to smooth out the English for our eyes and ears
• The grace [of God]:
  • brings salvation
  • has appeared to all men
    • teaching someone(s) how we are and are not to live
    • teaching someone(s) a mindset of looking forward to a specific future
• So:
  • What is grace in the mind of Paul?
  • What does it have to do with God?
  • Does God use it, or is it something that acts on its own to do things, or???
  • What does "by" grace in Ephesians 2 mean exactly, and why is "by" the proper translation of a grammatical structure with many possible choices of meaning that can provide us a precision in understanding?

Please know that a lot of our theological debates are due to language issues: word meanings, contexts, nuances in grammar, etc. When Jesus in essence said not even the smallest, least significant letter or part of a letter in a word in the Torah would pass from the Torah until all becomes, do you think He was kidding and that nuances in language are unimportant? Obviously not. You're taking a strong stance on a certain translation. I just want to know why and better understand your reasoning and how you derived your understanding.

 

[GDL]

I second that.

The plain reading of the scripture is below.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So easy LGW.

Please explain what this verse says and means firstly by identifying and explaining the structures of the verbs. What is the plain reading - what does it tell us as you understand it?

BTW, I'm happy to camp here and work on this with you and anyone else, since it directly applies to the OP of this thread - the loss of salvation. I've already in this thread given a surface explanation of some of what I see in Romans 10 in response to some other statements about it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Please explain what this verse says and means firstly by identifying and explaining the structures of the verbs. What is the plain reading - what does it tell us as you understand it?

BTW, I'm happy to camp here and work on this with you and anyone else, since it directly applies to the OP of this thread - the loss of salvation. I've already in this thread given a surface explanation of some of what I see in Romans 10 in response to some other statements about it.

This is what normally happens here and elsewhere in this forum. When people get challenged on an interpretation and a theology they are trying to build around single scriptures taken from context, and investigation into context, word meanings in Greek and Hebrew no one wants to discuss it. If an interpretation is made of scripture and it is shown that this interpretation is read into the scripture and disagrees with scripture contexts and subject matter to the rest of the bible, then the posts that show this simply get ignored and all you hear in response is - crickets . Thanks for sharing Gary, can I suggest you make a start and work through it and if people are in disagreement they can discuss why they might agree or disagree?

God bless.

 

[GDL]

This is what normally happens here and elsewhere in this forum.

can I suggest you make a start and work through it and if people are in disagreement they can discuss why they might agree or disagree?

I've noticed the crickets you speak of. Interesting. Will consider what you suggest. Thanks for the input.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

But, if you insist that every occasional sin (easily besetting sin Heb 12:1) leads to the loss of salvation then it raises the question of whether your good self is not at risk of losing your salvation since no man can hand-on-heart, swear not to have lied for once since they became born-again.

If losing your salvation was possible, no-one would go to heaven because we would all lose it. That's why it's not possible.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If losing your salvation was possible, no-one would go to heaven because we would all lose it. That's why it's not possible.

Sadly that view is not biblical though *see Matthew 7:21-23; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39.

 

[klutedavid]

Sadly that view is not biblical though *see Matthew 7:21-23; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39.

What is the difference between daily sin and unrepentant sin?

 

[John Mullally]

Puzzling clause, "they have experienced saving faith".

Have a read of Ephesians 2:8-10

By grace you have been saved...through faith.

By grace you have been saved...

By grace...

There is no such thing as a, 'saving faith'?

We are always are saved by the grace of Jesus and only the grace of Jesus.

By grace alone, not faith alone.

I believe in "saving faith".

Ephesians 2:8 is not the most clear passage on salvation. It is easy to interpret that passage a different way. For example:

1. One can argue that the verse is saying that "God's grace" allows you to be "saved through faith". In Luke 7:50, Jesus said "your faith has saved you".
2. One can argue that "the gift of God" is "God's grace". The grace that allows you to be "saved through faith". No one is entitled to salvation - so not of yourself.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. NKJV​

There are plenty of other verses on salvation - so why not stick more closely to verses that have no ambiguity. In Mark 16:16, Jesus says "He that believes and is baptized will be saved". Peter says something close to that in Act 2:38 - just exchange belief with repentance.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Sadly that view is not biblical though *see Matthew 7:21-23; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39.

Why did the people described in Matthew 7:21-23 lose their salvation if they did many wonderful works as the verse says? According to you, you can go to heaven by doing works, and those people in the verse you quoted did the works. According to you they should have been saved.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Why did the people described in Matthew 7:21-23 lose their salvation if they did many wonderful works as the verse says? According to you, you can go to heaven by doing works, and those people in the verse you quoted did the works. According to you they should have been saved.

No. The reason why Jesus told them to depart was because they were practicing sin (iniquity) while profession to know Christ and doing works in His name. If we say we know God while practicing known unrepentant sin, the scriptures tell us we do not know God and are not telling the truth *see not knowing God in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6 compare not knowing Jesus in Matthew 7:23. You also disregarded Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 as well as Matthew 7:21 that says it is not those who say Lord Lord that enter into God's kingdom but those who do the will of my heavenly father. Faith therefore is not separate from obedience to Gods' Word according to the scriptures (Romans 3:31).

Take care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What is the difference between daily sin and unrepentant sin?

I will be happy to start answering your questions again, when you start answering questions already asked you that you are ignoring (see post # 1044). A discussion goes two ways dear friend

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe in "saving faith".

Ephesians 2:8 is not the most clear passage on salvation. It is easy to interpret that passage a different way. For example:

1. One can argue that the verse is saying that "God's grace" allows you to be "saved through faith". In Luke 7:50, Jesus said "your faith has saved you".
2. One can argue that "the gift of God" is "God's grace". The grace that allows you to be "saved through faith". No one is entitled to salvation - so not of yourself.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. NKJV​

There are plenty of other verses on salvation - so why not stick more closely to verses that have no ambiguity. In Mark 16:16, Jesus says "He that believes and is baptized will be saved". Peter says something close to that in Act 2:38 - just exchange belief with repentance.

Good post John, so is saving faith in your view believing and obeying (following) what Gods' Word says? *James 2:13-26?

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

The reason why Jesus told them to depart was because they were practicing sin (iniquity) while profession to know Christ and doing works in His name.

So what type of iniquity specifically do you have to practice in order to lose your salvation? There was a guy in the Bible who committed fornication with his father's wife which is a pretty unimaginable level of iniquity, and yet that person was still saved and did not lose his salvation.

1 Corinthians 5
[1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Take care yourself.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So what type of iniquity specifically do you have to practice in order to lose your salvation? There was a guy in the Bible who committed fornication with his father's wife which is a pretty unimaginable level of iniquity, and yet that person was still saved and did not lose his salvation.

The unrepentant type. See 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; Hebrews 10:26-31 and Hebrews 6:4-8

 

[John Mullally]

Good post John, so is saving faith in your view believing and obeying (following) what Gods' Word says? *James 2:13-26?

Yes saving faith leads to obedience. To your point: I agree that the NT frequently warns believers against falling away - and the severe danger that entails. Even Paul had to remain diligent to keep his flesh in check (1 Cor 9:27).

The only passage I am aware of concerning having assurance of not falling away is 2 Peter 1:5-9, and that requires continual spiritual growth.

2 Peter 1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control [d]perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sin.​

 

[Trivalee]

Have another read of your post and compare it to the verse below.

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Yes, but it is possible to profess (call the name of the Lord) without belief and a change of heart. When that happens, the person is still not saved.

 

[Trivalee]

Are you sure about that?They will never fall because he keeps them. . .they don't keep themselves. . .if he didn't keep them, they would fall. . .but they cannot and do not fall because he keeps them, warnings being one of the ways he does so (see post #964).

Jesus saves to the uttermost! (Hebrews 7:25)

Forgive me, but I'm struggling to see the logic in your argument. I pointed out that contrary to your belief, IF the Lord will uphold the saved so they never fall, then the several warnings about persevering in Christ until the end would not have been necessary.

You countered that the warnings are part of the ways the Lord upholds them. In my view, this doesn't make sense and I hope someone else might be more successful in convincing you of your error than I have.

 

[Trivalee]

Yes saving faith leads to obedience. To your point: I agree that the NT frequently warns believers against falling away - and the severe danger that entails. Even Paul had to remain diligent to keep his flesh in check (1 Cor 9:27).

The only passage I am aware of concerning having assurance of not falling away is 2 Peter 1:5-9, and that requires continual spiritual growth.

2 Peter 1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control [d]perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sin.​

I completely agree. Thank you.