WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Danthemailman said:

Yes, FAITH is accounted for righteousness and not faith and works. (Romans 4:5-6)

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Yes, active, action producing, response motivating faith. Not passive mental assent. Faith requires works. Without taking action faith is worthless.

Danthemailman said:

Faith demonstrates that it’s real through action. Faith does not produce action in order to become real but BECAUSE it’s real. You have this backwards because you teach salvation by works.

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Without both (faith and action) you have nothing. Faith is really belief in action. And it is that belief in action that is credited as righteousness.

Danthemailman said:

Without faith it’s impossible to please God no matter how much action that you try to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

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It has already been demonstrated through Rom 10:9-10 that action (confession of Jesus' name) is absolutely required to receive salvation. Let's not go back to the dead argument that if an action is required for salvation it is "salvation by works".

Danthemailman said:

You say dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith and the works are the source of life in faith which is the same thing as saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Of course this is completely illogical and ridiculous.

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That is not what I am saying at all. Nor is that what the Holy Spirit is saying through James. Action is not the fruit of faith. Action is the soul of faith. Action is so integral a part of faith that without action there is no faith. Action is not the fruit, it is the root, the branches, the bark, the trunk of the tree of faith.

Danthemailman said:

The Spirit does give life to the body but you keep missing the big picture. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

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Faith is the same before salvation is received and 50 years after salvation is received. It does not change. Faith absolutely requires action. That has already been demonstrated through Rom 10:9-10 as noted above.

Danthemailman said:

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) This is not hard to understand. It’s just hard for you to ACCEPT.

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Not hard to accept at all. Let's go with what you say here. When does Eph 2 say that this action producing faith that shows that it has life to it must be evident? It has to exist before salvation is received, because faith is the conduit through which grace (salvation) is received.

Danthemailman said:

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

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That is not what Scripture says. It says, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?" Without his action, leaving Ur, sacrificing Isaac, and doing all the other things God told him to do, Abraham would not have been justified. His action completed his faith, and that is what was credited to him as righteousness.

Danthemailman said:

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. Once again, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

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Danthemailman said:

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

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James is making it very clear here that the two are inseparable. You cannot have faith without action. And it is the combination of the two that is credited as righteousness. Abraham had faith (belief in action) when he left Ur, and he continued to exhibit his faith through his actions the rest of his life. He was continually shown to be righteous because he continually exhibited his faith through obedience. But without action, he would have remained in Ur, and not been given, or demonstrated to be righteous, he would have been faithless.

Danthemailman said:

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.."The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified,." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

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Again, none of that is being debated. But you put all action after salvation is received, and it is not so in Scripture. If you are going to "harmonize scripture with scripture" as you like to say, you must agree (as you have already admitted) that confession of Jesus' name leads to our reception of salvation and that it is a physical action. That completely destroys the argument that there is no action that leads to our reception of salvation. The only thing that remains is to accept that there are more actions as well. Knowing that there is at least one action required, we then have our mind cleared to understand that baptism is also required because Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and many other passages of Scripture say it is. Once we have the anti"works salvation" argument out of the way, we can understand better what these passages are really saying (as has been explained many times).

Michael Collum said:

If people are saved by works, then it is conditioned on man saving himself instead of God.

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Just because there are conditions on the reception of the gift does not cause it to cease to be a gift. Let's say I gave you a 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO which is worth about $70 million. Now, it is here in Atlanta so you are going to have to come here to get it. Does it cease to be a gift because you had to come here to get it? And do you have the benefit of driving this exceptional car if you never come here to get it? It was purchased for you, and has your name on it, but if you never come get it, it goes to waste, because you never get to drive it. Yet if you do come get it, you will be able to drive it for the rest of your life.

This is not a perfect example of God's grace, but it does demonstrate some of the principles of God's gift to us.

LoveGodsWord said:

No, I have said no such thing. I have said no where that I do not believe in conditional salvation.

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LoveGodsWord said:

Gods' Grace and salvation are all conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says.

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I rest my case, you did it again, but in the same post.

Doug Brents said:

Just because there are conditions on the reception of the gift does not cause it to cease to be a gift.

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I tend to use the parable, just because you don't open your airways, it doesn't mean there isn't air to breathe.

Using money parables tend to fall apart since Jesus paid the price in full.

LoveGodsWord said:

You have yet to make a case. Where does it say in the posts you are quoting from I do not believe in conditional salvation? Let's talk more when you want to discuss the scriptures here.

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I pointed out an obvious contradiction in your post, twice, and you appear to be blind to it. This casts doubt on your ability to honestly read and teach the bible.

Michael Collum said:

I tend to use the parable, just because you don't open your airways, it doesn't mean there isn't air to breathe.

Using money parables tend to fall apart since Jesus paid the price in full.

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No, this analogy stands up in that regard. Because in this analogy I paid the car in full. 100%. But you are not in the car. Nor are you probably even in the town where the car is. You have to come to where the car is to get the benefit of the gift that has been given. Hence the condition placed upon your reception of the gift.

just so with salvation. We must come to Christ and obey what he said leads to salvation. He said we must confess his name verbally and publicly. If we do not, he will not claim us. Also, we must be baptized into his name. Please note that in Mark 16:16 it is the minister who is instructed to baptize the disciple. And in acts 2:38 it is the disciple who is instructed to be baptized. It is in baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us according to Colossians 2:11-14. And according to both Colossians 2 and Romans 6:1–10, We are united with Christ and his death and resurrection during baptism.

Doug Brents said:

Yes, active, action producing, response motivating faith. Not passive mental assent. Faith requires works. Without taking action faith is worthless.

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Let’s not forget the Importance of the OBJECT of our faith, which is Jesus Christ. Our faith is made alive in Christ by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:5-9) Authentic faith is demonstrated by genuine good works, (James 2:14-24) yet even people with mere “mental ascent” belief in Christ can still produce action with the wrong motivations and intentions. Namely, for the sake of obtaining salvation by works. Such people may even be “religious” but they are still not right with God. (Matthew 7:22-23)

Without both (faith and action) you have nothing. Faith is really belief in action. And it is that belief in action that is credited as righteousness.

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Without the right kind of faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 3:24-28) you have nothing. Actions which “follow” and are produced out of faith is the demonstrative evidence of authentic belief/faith. Belief/faith is credited as righteousness BEFORE the action follows. (Romans 4:2-6)

It has already been demonstrated through Rom 10:9-10 that action (confession of Jesus' name) is absolutely required to receive salvation. Let's not go back to the dead argument that if an action is required for salvation it is "salvation by works".

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Once again confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Plain and simple.

That is not what I am saying at all. Nor is that what the Holy Spirit is saying through James. Action is not the fruit of faith. Action is the soul of faith. Action is so integral a part of faith that without action there is no faith. Action is not the fruit, it is the root, the branches, the bark, the trunk of the tree of faith.

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Absolutely false and this remains the very heart of your error. You basically make no distinction between faith and action/works. You basically wrap both faith and works up in a package and simply stamp “faith” on the package. You also basically define faith “as” works which remains your stumbling block and (and the stumbling block of all works-salvationists) and keeps you from understanding the truth. Confusing the fruit with the root remains your Achilles’ heel. Life flows through the root and produces the fruit and not the other way around. I just hope and pray that something I shared with you will at least plant a seed that one day will be watered and open your heart to the truth.

Faith is the same before salvation is received and 50 years after salvation is received. It does not change. Faith absolutely requires action. That has already been demonstrated through Rom 10:9-10 as noted above.

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We are saved through faith at its origin of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation prior to producing action/works. Romans 10:9,10 does not teach that we are saved by a work of confession later, after we believe unto righteousness. The word of faith is in our mouth and heart TOGETHER. Remember that no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) This goes beyond near “lip service” confession. (Matthew 7:21)

Not hard to accept at all. Let's go with what you say here. When does Eph 2 say that this action producing faith that shows that it has life to it must be evident? It has to exist before salvation is received, because faith is the conduit through which grace (salvation) is received.

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Your argument flies in the face of Ephesians 2:8,9 and Romans 5:1,2. Like I said before. It’s not hard to understand. It’s just hard for you to ACCEPT.

That is not what Scripture says. It says, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?" Without his action, leaving Ur, sacrificing Isaac, and doing all the other things God told him to do, Abraham would not have been justified. His action completed his faith, and that is what was credited to him as righteousness.

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That Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6 and it (faith, not works) was credited to him as righteousness (Romans 4:2-3) many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous (James 2:21) is in fact exactly what Scripture teaches.

James is making it very clear here that the two are inseparable.

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Faith is the root and works are the fruit. James is discussing the evidence of faith and not the essence of faith. Big difference.

You cannot have faith without action.

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You cannot demonstrate faith without action, yet you cannot have proper action without authentic faith.

And it is the combination of the two that is credited as righteousness. Abraham had faith (belief in action) when he left Ur, and he continued to exhibit his faith through his actions the rest of his life. He was continually shown to be righteous because he continually exhibited his faith through obedience. But without action, he would have remained in Ur, and not been given, or demonstrated to be righteous, he would have been faithless.

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Abraham was “shown” (key word) to be righteous by works. Now if Abraham would have produced no actions at all, then he would have demonstrated a bogus faith, but of course, that was not the case. Shown to be righteous, exhibited and demonstrated are key words here in regards to works.

Again, none of that is being debated. But you put all action after salvation is received, and it is not so in Scripture. If you are going to "harmonize scripture with scripture" as you like to say, you must agree (as you have already admitted) that confession of Jesus' name leads to our reception of salvation and that it is a physical action. That completely destroys the argument that there is no action that leads to our reception of salvation. The only thing that remains is to accept that there are more actions as well. Knowing that there is at least one action required, we then have our mind cleared to understand that baptism is also required because Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and many other passages of Scripture say it is. Once we have the anti"works salvation" argument out of the way, we can understand better what these passages are really saying (as has been explained many times).

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I have already thoroughly explained these passages of Scripture to you multiple times after properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture, but you seem fixed on your belief system. Some people really struggle with church indoctrination.

Michael Collum said:

I tend to use the parable, just because you don't open your airways, it doesn't mean there isn't air to breathe.

Using money parables tend to fall apart since Jesus paid the price in full.

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Jesus absolutely paid the price in full, yet people still turn to supplements.

Doug Brents said:

No, this analogy stands up in that regard. Because in this analogy I paid the car in full. 100%. But you are not in the car. Nor are you probably even in the town where the car is. You have to come to where the car is to get the benefit of the gift that has been given. Hence the condition placed upon your reception of the gift.

just so with salvation. We must come to Christ and obey what he said leads to salvation. He said we must confess his name verbally and publicly. If we do not, he will not claim us. Also, we must be baptized into his name. Please note that in Mark 16:16 it is the minister who is instructed to baptize the disciple. And in acts 2:38 it is the disciple who is instructed to be baptized. It is in baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us according to Colossians 2:11-14. And according to both Colossians 2 and Romans 6:1–10, We are united with Christ and his death and resurrection during baptism.

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Makes God sound impotent and stingy. Jesus is pretty generous though and almighty so disagree.

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Danthemailman said:

Jesus absolutely paid the price in full, yet people still turn to supplements.

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People want to say they are saved, but when pressed to the end answer, reveal they want to trust in anything but Jesus for salvation.

Michael Collum said:

People want to say they are saved, but when pressed to the end answer, reveal they want to trust in anything but Jesus for salvation.

When asked do you trust God first or the bible? That's a crucial question, there's a fine line, a narrow path as it were. And few find it.

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I absolutely trust exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and not in my works, yet sadly, many people do trust in anything (their church, their works, law keeping etc.. for salvation) and refuse to trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Such people end up obeying their church and not God and the end result every time is "salvation by works." For some it's even "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

Few trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9) which is the narrow path. (John 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12)

Keep fighting the good fight of faith brother and God bless you!

Michael Collum said:

Makes God sound impotent and stingy. Jesus is pretty generous though and almighty so disagree.

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Not at all “impotent and stingy”. Rather holy and generous. He demands that we “come to Him”. He remains fixed in His perfection and Holiness, and we must come to Him where He is to receive His holiness through Christ. Only those who obey Him receive His gift of salvation, forgiveness, purity, and eternal life.

Doug Brents said:

Not at all “impotent and stingy”. Rather holy and generous. He demands that we “come to Him”. He remains fixed in His perfection and Holiness, and we must come to Him where He is to receive His holiness through Christ. Only those who obey Him receive His gift of salvation, forgiveness, purity, and eternal life.

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Sounds like the opinion of a church that doesn't do outreach, and expects the people to come to them.

Michael Collum said:

Sounds like the opinion of a church that doesn't do outreach, and expects the people to come to them.

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Now that is a stretch, rotfl!

No, we are commanded to go reach the lost, and they are also commanded to respond to the outreach.

LoveGodsWord said:

Edit

No not really. According to the scriptures, Gods' Grace and salvation are a free gift given by God that we receive through faith and there is nothing we can do to earn it (Ephesians 2:8-9). The condition for receiving Gods' free gift of Grace and eternal life however is "faith". Therefore receiving Gods' Grace and salvation are conditional to believing and obeying what God's Word says as shown in James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21. Further scriptures support is provided to you in post # 1398 linked. The fruit of genuine faith is obeying what Gods 'Word says. As shown from the scriptures already, Gods' Grace and salvation are "conditional" on faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and genuine faith obeys what Gods' Word says *James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21 see also Hebrews 11. If you believe that you can believe God's Word but not do what God's what says then that is a faith that has no fruit and one that James calls the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. That is a false teaching that is not biblical.

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What you mean no not really ? If you dont believe in the eternal security of the believer, then you believe that man does something to stay saved, to be secure.