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Personally I prefer John 15:1-10 or Matthew 7:21-27. I think both of these strongly support your position here.
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Are you perhaps referring to Eph 2:8-9? That passage does not say that our salvation does not require any action on our part. Many people teach that it does, but they are wrong.
Salvation is by grace (the gift of God) through faith (action motivating and producing belief). “Not of works” refers not to how we receive salvation, but to how and why He offered us grace to begin with.
Beyond that, there are numerous passages that say explicitly that action is required to receive salvation. Rom 10:9-10 is one of the most explicit. “…if you confess with the mouth…” God could not be more clear that a physical action is taking place here, and that physical action leads to (not flows from) the reception of salvation.
Doug Brents replied [post #1252], "Just FYI, Heb 10:10 says “once for all”, not ‘once and for all’.
“Once for all” means that Christ died once, and His sacrifice was for all (unlike the repetitive sacrifices of the Old Covenant).
This is not the common saying “once and for all” implying “finally” or “at long last” (which is true, but not the implication of this verse."
My Reply :
Yes, I would agree with your statement that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all" in the sense that it was unlike [and vastly superior to] the repetitive sacrifices of the Old Covenant; however, I would disagree with you as it pertains to the implications of a believer's eternal security. The critical verse that adds more substance to that discussion is found in verse 14.
Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." [KJV].
Hebrews 10 :14 - Greek interlinear :
"By one [mia] for [gar] offering [prosphora] He has perfected [teteleiōken] for all time [eis to diēnekes] those [tous] being sanctified [hagiazomenous]."
"He has perfected" - root - Strong's #5048. teleioó
teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Usage: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.
"being sanctified" - root - Strong's #37. hagiazó
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
Where should the emphasis be placed?
Generally speaking, those of the LOS [Loss Of Salvation] camp emphasize the aspect of the singularity of Christ's sacrifice [i.e. - it's completeness and sufficiency for the forgiveness and redemption of humanity throughout all of history] ... "For by one offering." That is, Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins [forever abolishing the need of it's repetition, as well as the Old Covenant sacrificial system]. It was Christ's singular act of atonement that provided a perfect and acceptable sacrifice which alone could satisfy God's holy righteousness and justice].
On the other hand, the opposing camp, the OJAS ["Once Justified, Always Justified"] or OASAAS ["Once Actually Saved, Always Actually Saved"] advocates by and large focus upon the resulting effect of Christ's singular sacrifice upon those who have placed their faith in it's efficacy and sufficiency to obtain their right-standing before God ... "he hath perfected for ever [for all time] them that are sanctified [those being sanctified]." To state it in a slightly different manner for further clarity ... "those being sanctified" - all those who, from age to age, through faith receive as their own that which has been procured for all men.
Although it is true that we do not have an "either/or", but rather a "both/and" scenario in view here [each camp representing one-half of the dual truths declared in Hebrews 10:14], it appears to me that there is compelling evidence contained within this verse supporting the OJAJ position.
Should we view the sanctification spoken of here ["those being sanctified"] in a positional or progressive sense?
Although it certainly looks to me that positional sanctification is in view here, a person's perspective on this issue actually matters little as it pertains to the question of the eternal security of the believer [as I will attempt to demonstrate by the following truth claims].
(1) A person cannot be progressively sanctified unless he/she has been positionally sanctified [or set apart by God as holy].
(2) A person cannot be sanctified in either a positional or progressive sense without also experiencing a justified status before God. [1 Corinthians 6:11].
(3) All those who have been justified will also be glorified [in both it's "already" and "not yet" dimensions]. Although glorification is viewed as including a present [continous] sanctifying/transformational work of the Holy Spirit operating in the lives of believers, there is also a future aspect attached to it ... the reception of a glorified body - a resurrection body in Heaven.
Therefore, positional and progressive sanctification, as well as the [ultimate] redemption of the body, are states that will be actualized in all of those ["from age to age"] who experience a justified status before God.
Romans 6:5 [Greek Interlinear] - "If [Ei] for [gar] united [symphytoi] we have become [gegonamen] in the [tō] likeness [homoiōmati] of the [tou] death [thanatou] of Him [autou] certainly [alla] also [kai] of the [tēs] resurrection [anastaseōs] we will be [esometha]."
Romans 6:5 [English Standard Version] - "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."... it certainly [alla] sounds to me that both OJAJ [Once Justified, Always Justified] and OASAAS [Once Actually Saved, Always Actually Saved] are truths proclaimed by the scriptures .... it doesn't get any better than this my friends!!! ... All Praise and Glory to Jesus Christ! - The [Singular] Precious Lamb of God!!!
[see post #103, "Further thoughts on the glorification of God's elect"] < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >
[also, see post #63,"Connecting the Dots between Justification and Glorification" < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >
No one believes in salvation by Grace if they are disobedient to the faith because Gods' Grace is given to us to be obedient to the faith *see Romans 1:5 and Titus 2:11-12Hey you just dont believe in Salvation by Grace.
Absolutely wrong.Hey you just dont believe in Salvation by Grace.
It still seems you promote salvation by works, contrary to salvation by grace.No one believes in salvation by Grace if they are disobedient to the faith because Gods' Grace is given to us to be obedient to the faith *see Romans 1:5 and Titus 2:11-12
Conditions ?? This sounds like Salvation by works. Scripture teaches against that.Absolutely wrong.
There was nothing we could have done to cause God to forgive us. Nothing we have done is worth the life of our God.
But he gave us the gift (grace) of His Son to pay the price for our sin, and He set conditions for our reception of the benefit of that gift (repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus’ name (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16)). These conditions do not negate the fact that the gift is Grace.
No, Scripture does NOT teach against man being required to take action to receive salvation. It teaches that we cannot EARN salvation by our actions, but it does not teach that we don’t have to do anything at all.Conditions ?? This sounds like Salvation by works. Scripture teaches against that.
I’m sorry, but Scripture is very clear, and you can be 100% sure. This has been debated for millennia because Satan is the ultimate liar, man’s heart is wicked and easily swayed away from God, and it is easier to believe that we don’t have to physically do anything than it is to obey.The Scriptures aren't 100% clear. This has been debated for millennia. You can't make a dogmatic statement either way.
Scripture teaches Salvation is by Grace apart from works, conditionsNo, Scripture does NOT teach against man being required to take action to receive salvation. It teaches that we cannot EARN salvation by our actions, but it does not teach that we don’t have to do anything at all.
Consider Rom 10:9-10 for example. Confession of Jesus’ name “with the mouth” is clearly a physical act. And these verses say that it leads to salvation (not that it flows from having received salvation). That verse alone destroys the concept of a “works free” salvation.
That doesn’t mean that confessing Jesus’ name earns salvation; the life of my Lord is not that cheep, but it is a condition that, if it is not met along with the other conditions mentioned in Scripture, results in salvation NOT being received.
No not at all. I promote what the scriptures teach. Faith according to James and Paul is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says *James 2:13-26; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 11:1-40. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.It still seems you promote salvation by works, contrary to salvation by grace.
I often hear those who subscribe to works-salvation misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way which means we can believe unto righteousness today, (see Romans 4:5) but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their “mouth.”
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
Those who teach the 4 step plan of salvation 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Get baptized then finally saved after baptism are in contradiction with “confession is made unto salvation.” Step 3 precedes step 4. Water baptism “follows” believing in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-48)
We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting passages of scripture in an effort to “patch together” a “different” gospel plan of works salvation.You have made this argument many times, and it makes no more sense now then it did before. No, repent and confess are not necessarily separate in time. They can, and should, be done at the same time. When you read Acts, you see that a powerful urgency in placed on action immediately after someone believes the Gsuospel. Why? Because once someone believes the Gospel, they should take action (faith) on that belief, and obey the Gospel so that they can receive salvation.
Let me ask you a question: can someone confess the name of Jesus if they do not believe that He is the Savior God? Does it make any difference to their salvation if they confess His name, before they believe He is who He said He is? No, it makes no difference; they remain lost, because just calling on His name does not save. If it did, then everyone who said, "Lord, Lord" would be saved. But Jesus Himself said that, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." It very much matters that we believe before we confess His name.
Now, it doesn't matter whether we repent before or after we confess, but belief must come before either of those
Not at all. Confession is made UNTO salvation, not immediately resulting in salvation. Rom 6:1-4 says nothing about us being united with Christ's death because of our confession. It say we are united with Christ's death in baptism. It says that we are raised from baptism in likeness of His resurrection, not raised from confession of His name.
Again, Eph 2:11-14 says nothing about the Spirit taking action to cut (circumcise) our sin and sinful nature from us when we confess Jesus' name. It says He does that when we are baptized.
Remember Dan, you must be consistent with ALL of Scripture for you doctrine to hold water.
Yet the scripture teaches against Salvation by works and teaches its by Grace apart from our works.No not at all. I promote what the scriptures teach. Faith according to James and Paul is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says *James 2:13-26; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 11:1-40. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.
According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.
Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by genuine faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. Therefore according to the scriptures, we demonstrate our faith by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils and is not saving faith which is why Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them" *Matthew 7:12-23.
Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12).
We must be careful to believe and follow what God's Word says as it is only those who believe and follow that Jesus calls "His sheep" in John 10:26-27 and only those who "do" the will of the father that enter into Gods' kingdom according to Jesus in Matthew 7:21.
Take Care.
Yet the scripture teaches against Salvation by works and teaches its by Grace apart from our works.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Compare Rom 4:2-6 with James 2:20-22. Both of them quote the same OT passage, but they make a very different point. Is one wrong and the other right? If so, which one is right? No!! Both are right. It takes action to make our faith real, alive, and of any value to our salvation.We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting passages of scripture in an effort to “patch together” a “different” gospel plan of works salvation.
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
I’ve heard many of these same arguments from you before so none of them are anything new or enlightening. Your gospel plan culminates in “works salvation” in violation of scripture (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Period.
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