WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[LoveGodsWord]

which means the same thing as:

We, by keeping those laws (subject), show our love (object) to our fellow man.

So. . .keeping those laws (subject) shows our love (object) to our fellow man.

That is knowing misrepresentation of Romans 13:8-10; i.e., exchanging the grammatical object (law) for the grammatical subject (love) of the NT texts in Romans 13:8, Romans 13:9-10, which are:

"Love (subject) is the fulfillment of the law (object) 'and whatever other commandment there may be'." (Romans 13:9-10)

"He who has loved (subject) his fellow man has fulfilled the law (object)." (Romans 13:8)

Please explain the meaning of those two texts (Romans 13:8, Romans 13:9-10), not a according to your grammatical misrepresentation of them, but according to their NT grammatical order; i.e., the grammatical subject = love, the grammatical object = law.

According to the scriptures, love to God and man is demonstrated through obedience to Gods' law from the Gods' new covenant promise of a new heart to love (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Love and obedience to God's law are not separated from each other according to the scriptures which show that love is obedience to law just as genuine faith is believing and doing what Gods' word says from the someone that has been born of the Spirit to love. For example if we consider the scriptures below we see that..

Jesus says that on the two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40

Paul agreeing with Jesus says that if we love our neighbor as our self we will not commit adultery with our neighbors spouse, we will not kill or murder our neighbor, we will not steal from our neighbor, we will not lie to our neighbor, and not covet the things our neighbor has and goes on to say that when it says loving our neighbor as our self that is it summing up that love is expressed in obedience to those laws in God's 10 commandment that are our duty of love to our fellow man in Romans 13:8-10.

James also agreeing with both Jesus and Paul talking about the same subject matter as Paul in regards to the royal law of loving our neighbor our our self also links love being expressed as obedience to Gods' law when he says if we have respect to laws we commit sin stating that if we break any one of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. Quoting from Gods' 10 commandments using the examples of thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not kill, James says that if we break anyone of them we are transgressors of Gods' law and we will be judged by the law of liberty referring back to loving our neighbor as our self in James 2:8-12.

John is also in agreement with Jesus, Paul, and James when he says By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. John continues by saying "For this is the love of God, (that is John is defining Gods' law) that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not grievous.

.............

Here we have Jesus, Paul, James and John all in agreement that love to God and man is expressed in obedience to Gods' law not by breaking Gods' law.

For example as posted earlier...

If we LOVE our neighbour...

* Will we honor our parents?
* Will we not murder?
* Will we not commit adultery with our neighbor's spouse?
* Will we not steal from them?
* Will we not lie to them?
* Will we not covet what they own?

If we LOVE our God...

* Will we not have other Gods?
* Will we not make idols and worship them?
* Will we not take his name [follow] him in vain?
* Will we remember his seventh day Sabbath and keep it holy?

Now if your answer is yes then you agree with me. If your answer is no what kind of love are you talking about where breaking any of Gods' 10 commandments is loving God or loving our fellow man?

..............

According to the scriptures, love is not separate from our actions. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Don't fall for the strawman argument: No one is redeemed from the law by breaking the law.

Then we are best not to make strawman arguments. No one is redeemed from the law by breaking Gods law. That is the description of the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Wrong. Using your less than clear verses as trumping my more than clear verses is NO WAY to defend your view.

What you MUST DO is explain what the verses I have shared teach, if not eternal security.

However, since my verses are plain and straightforward, there is NO WAY to do that.

Again, go to post #491 and address each of the verses and show how they don't teach eternal security.

If you can't/won't/don't do that, we have nothing more to discuss.

You simply haven't proved your case. All you have are verses that DON'T SAY what you think. None of them even mentions salvation, much less "loss of salvation".

You have to assume/presume that they do.

Please forgive me dear friend but I do not believe you as already shown through the scriptures in the posts you are part quoting so we will of course have to agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing though

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please forgive me dear friend but I do not believe you

I've already explained why it doesn't matter what you believe or not. You have not proven your claims nor have you refuted mine.

All you've done is assume your verses teach loss of salvation, when NONE of them even mention salvation. And you haven't bothered to explain what my verses teach.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I've already explained why it doesn't matter what you believe or not. You have not proven your claims nor have you refuted mine.

All you've done is assume your verses teach loss of salvation, when NONE of them even mention salvation. And you haven't bothered to explain what my verses teach.

I respectfully disagree. As shown through the posts and the scriptures already shared with you, there is no scripture that you have posted that shows that we can "depart the faith" and continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and still expect to receive everlasting life. That is a teaching that is against the scriptures according to *Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31. Gods' salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word to the very end. Your claims however have been refuted with scripture and you have simply chosen to not to respond to the scriptures shared with you that are in disagreement with your teachings which is why we should agree to disagree. You do not need to make any cases with me and I respect your right to your opinion even though I believe I have shown why I do not agree with you from the scriptures. According to the very words of Jesus we all answer only to God come judgement day for the words of God we accept or reject according to John 12:47-48. Thanks for sharing your view though.

Take care.

 

[Clare73]

This is not rocket science. I prefer simply what the scriptures teach.

What a concept!

Please explain the meaning of the two texts (Romans 13:8, Romans 13:9-10), not according to your grammatical misrepresentation of them, but according to their NT grammatical order; i.e.,
the grammatical subject = love, the grammatical object = law.

 

[Clare73]

Then we are best not to make strawman arguments. No one is redeemed from the law by breaking Gods law. That is the description of the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4.

Strawman. . .

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Strawman. . .

Exactly, we are best not to make strawman arguments because no one is redeemed from the law by breaking Gods law. That is the description of the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4. God's children do not practice sin according to 1 John 3:6-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.

 

[Clare73]

Exactly,

We are in agreement.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What a concept!

Please explain the meaning of the two texts (Romans 13:8, Romans 13:9-10), not according to your grammatical misrepresentation of them, but according to their NT grammatical order; i.e.,
the grammatical subject = love, the grammatical object = law.

There is no misrepresentation your making a strawman arguments, no one is arguing about. Please see post # 521 linked.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I respectfully disagree.

I've already explained why it doesn't matter whether you agree or not.

You have FAILED to refute my verses, by explaining WHAT they actually teach rather than eternal security. Obviously because the verses are so clear and staightforward.

And, your "disagreement" is only because you default to verses that you only think teach loss of salvation, when NONE of them even mentions salvation.

How can a verse teach loss of savlation when it doesn't even mention salvation?

So you can disagree all you want. Doesn't matter. You have only proved that you can't defend your own position, nor refute mine.

John 10:28 is clear. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, you see, avoiding the LoF (never perishing) is based on what Jesus does (gives eternal life) rather than on anything we do, unlike your opinion.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I've already explained why it doesn't matter whether you agree or not.

You have FAILED to refute my verses, by explaining WHAT they actually teach rather than eternal security. Obviously because the verses are so clear and staightforward.

And, your "disagreement" is only because you default to verses that you only think teach loss of salvation, when NONE of them even mentions salvation.

How can a verse teach loss of savlation when it doesn't even mention salvation?

So you can disagree all you want. Doesn't matter. You have only proved that you can't defend your own position, nor refute mine.

John 10:28 is clear. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, you see, avoiding the LoF (never perishing) is based on what Jesus does (gives eternal life) rather than on anything we do, unlike your opinion.

Your repeating yourself here. Please consider post # 525 linked. What is it in the post provided to you that you disagree with?

Take Care.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your repeating yourself here. Please see post # 525 linked.

Only because of your persistent comment about disagreeing with my view. It's all been explained, but it is clear to me that you aren't interested in actually facing what the very clear verses SAY and MEAN.

Your verses don't even mention salvation, so it is ridiculous to claim they teach loss of salvation.

My verses speak of NEVER PERISHING, which is a clear statement about avoiding the LoF.

btw, why won't you explain what Peter was talking about in 1 Peter 1:23? He said that believers are born of "imperishable seed".

What I know about the meaning of words is that "imperishable" means "never perish".

But you are persistent in the view that believers CAN perish, in spite of what Jesus said about those who have received eternal life. They SHALL NEVER PERISH is extremely clear.

The fact that you won't deal with this verse says VOLUMES about your inability to defend your own position, since you KNOW that Peter taught eternal security just like Jesus did.

 

[Clare73]

There is no misrepresentation your making a strawman arguments, no one is arguing about. Please see post # 521 linked.

Non-responsive to my request.

 

[returntosender]

I am getting confused. What's the point In taking steps to repentense to be born again if we were all born again at Jesus' death?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Only because of your persistent comment about disagreeing with my view. It's all been explained, but it is clear to me that you aren't interested in actually facing what the very clear verses SAY and MEAN.

Your verses don't even mention salvation, so it is ridiculous to claim they teach loss of salvation.

My verses speak of NEVER PERISHING, which is a clear statement about avoiding the LoF.

btw, why won't you explain what Peter was talking about in 1 Peter 1:23? He said that believers are born of "imperishable seed".

What I know about the meaning of words is that "imperishable" means "never perish".

But you are persistent in the view that believers CAN perish, in spite of what Jesus said about those who have received eternal life. They SHALL NEVER PERISH is extremely clear.

The fact that you won't deal with this verse says VOLUMES about your inability to defend your own position, since you KNOW that Peter taught eternal security just like Jesus did.

Sorry I disagree with you. As shown from the scriptures to you earlier Gods' promises are to "believers" not "unbelievers" who choose to depart the faith that we are warned against doing. There is no scripture that you have posted that shows that we can "depart the faith" and continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and still expect to receive everlasting life. That is a teaching that is against the scriptures according to *Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31. Gods' salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word to the very end.

Take Care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am getting confused. What's the point In taking steps to repentense to be born again if we were all born again at Jesus' death?

No one is born again at Christ death unless they believe and follow what Gods' Word says.

 

[returntosender]

want to talk about OSAS?#143
" If you want to be unborn again, you will have to go back 2,000 years and stop Lord Jesus from being crucified. "

I thought I was born again when I repented and made Jesus my life, etc.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

want to talk about OSAS?#143
" If you want to be unborn again, you will have to go back 2,000 years and stop Lord Jesus from being crucified. "

As posted earlier, according to the scriptures, being born again is a part of God's new covenant promise for those who believe and follow Gods Word who have been given a new heart to love and walk in newness of life *(see John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 3:36; Romans 8:1-4 and Galatians 5:16; Acts of the Apostles 2:38; Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

 

[returntosender]

So we don't have to take the steps to be born again that churches say. I accepted an alter call to be born again. Makes no sense if we all already are born again.