WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ The answer and safety here is in Gods' Word. All of God's promises are "conditional" on believing and following what God's Word says.

Your response here...

You have never proven this from the Bible.

Lets discuss it then and see what the scriptures teach.

IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS?

I believe that God's salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says..

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too many more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

1 JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditions for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF (conditional) you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

.....................

God's Word teaches that our salvation and His promises are all conditional to believing and following what God's Word says.

HAPPY SABBATH

 

[LoveGodsWord]

OK, let's examine what the Bible says about the present tense.

We already been on this ride before you left didn't we?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. So, Jesus made the point that believers POSSESS eternal life. This means that they POSSESS eternal life WHEN they believe, or to be even more clear, the MOMENT they believe, and therefore, becomes believers, they POSSESS eternal life.

As shown from the scriptures earlier, it is your understanding of John 5:24 that is in error. As shown through the scriptures, John 5:24 which says [24], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. Now go look up the believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) it is a verb that is present participle active and means present tense active to "believing" so the scripture says "he that hears my words and is believing on him that sent me has everlasting life. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. Have a look at John 3:36 [36], He that believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. John 3:36 [36], He that believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not (G4100 πιστεύων = believing not) the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God stays on him.

Then, Jesus said this: John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. We know from Jn 5:24 that it is believers who POSSESS eternal life. So this verse tells us who gives the gift of eternal life; Jesus Christ Himself. Then, Jesus tells us the result of being given eternal life: they shall never perish. So, how can the notion that eternal life can be lost, forfeited, given away, removed, etc, since Jesus was clear that those GIVEN eternal life shall never perish? The answer is clear. It cannot. So, OGNP. Once given, never perish. Or OSAS.

As already shown through the scriptures your ignoring the scripture context of John 10:28 which says [10] And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. The context your disregarding is in John 10:26-27 where it defines who God gives eternal life to which says; [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. [27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. So those who God gives eternal life to are those who believe and follow his voice (the Word).

God does not give eternal life to those who do not believe and do not follow what His Word says because John 10:26 says that they are not His sheep. John 10:28 does not say when eternal life is given it says that eternal life is given nothing more. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over.

You may also what to consider over 100+ scriptures that have already been posted that disagrees with your teachings see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 3:8-19 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199; post # 221 linked or post # 225 and once again in post # 257 and post 281 linked.

My prayer is that you might receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. According to Jesus in John 12:47-48 the Words of God we accept or reject become our judge come judgement day.

HAPPY SABBATH

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Could you quote the exact words that say they fell away from being saved? Or are you just assuming that's what "falling away" means?

We can use your favorite scripture against you here and a few others to demonstrate that when someone falls away from the faith they are fallen away from believing and following Gods' Word therefore they have fallen away from being saved because according to the scriptures whatsoever is not of faith in sin *Romans 14:23 and we know that we are saved by God's grace through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9. Therefore if someone has fallen away into sin and unbelief how are they in a saved state with God when they are practicing known unrepentant sin and not believing and following what Gods' Word says? For without faith we are told it is impossible to please God for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. *Hebrews 11:6. We can stop here but no let's continue to bury this one.

As shown through the scriptures already, John 5:24 which says [24], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. Now go look up the believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) it is a verb that is present participle active and means present tense active to "believing" so the scripture says "he that hears my words and is believing (present tense now) on him that sent me has everlasting life. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. Have a look at John 3:36 [36], He that believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

Therefore if someone has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. John 3:36 [36], He that believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not (G4100 πιστεύων = believing not) the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God stays on him. = unsaved!

HAPPY SABBATH

 

[klutedavid]

WHY OUR SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Greetings with much love to all my fellow Christians in the Lord Jesus. I thought I would post this as I wanted to show the multitude of scripture that proves that our salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says and that our salvation can be lost if we choose to depart the faith (the truth of Word of God) and no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says and return to a life of known unrepentant sin. I posted some of the scriptures in another thread but they are lost somewhere in that thread which is grown quite large now. So I am posting those scriptures and more not previously posted if anyone may want to see what the bible says about losing salvation.

QUESTIONS (answers need to be supported by scripture)

Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

Q2. IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS?

Q3. CAN WE DEPART THE FAITH FROM BEING A BELIEVER TO BECOMING AN UNBELIEVER?

Q4. WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THE TEACH IF WE CHOOSE REJECT GOD'S WORD WHEN HE GIVES US A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH AND TO DEPART THE FAITH AND RETURN TO A LIFE ON UNBELIEF AND SIN THAT SAY WE WILL STILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?

Q5. IS THE DOCTRINE OF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED BIBLICAL?

I hope this can be a friendly discussion please based on the scriptures in regards to the questions posted above and I pray that the scriptures provided here might be helpful for our edification to anyone wanting to understand what the bible teaches in regards to the questions above in regards to our salvation.

May God bless us all as we seek Him through His Word.

I believe that our salvation cannot be lost or gained, based on how well we repent. I think that concept misses the point completely.

As far as I am concerned, it is that trust in Jesus that is the reason for our salvation.

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe that our salvation cannot be lost or gained, based on how well we repent. I think that concept misses the point completely.

As far as I am concerned, it is that trust in Jesus that is the reason for our salvation.

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Hello David,

According to the scriptures, we are are indeed saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have sinned and broken God's law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26.

Happy Sabbath

 

[Christian7777777]

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)


1 JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditions for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF (conditional) you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

All of those conditions of the new testament quotes cannot b anyhting alike to any old testament conditions, as the old test was without faith.


Now to do the works ( conditions of God) is by believing in the Son of man ( that God raised Him fro the dead) to be saved



John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Christian7777777]

God does not give eternal life to those who do not believe and do not follow what His Word says because John 10:26 says that they are not His sheep. John 10:28 does not say when eternal life is given it says that eternal life is given nothing more. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word. We have the "Hope" of eternal life today the moment we believe Gods' Word and we receive God's promise of eternal life after our faith has been tried and our time on earth is over.

Man does not follow sanctification, man believes that the risen Christ is his sanctification once for all..



1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Christian7777777]

We can use your favorite scripture against you here and a few others to demonstrate that when someone falls away from the faith they are fallen away from believing and following Gods' Word therefore they have fallen away from being saved because according to the scriptures whatsoever is not of faith in sin *Romans 14:23 and we know that we are saved by God's grace through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9. Therefore if someone has fallen away into sin and unbelief how are they in a saved state with God when they are practicing known unrepentant sin and not believing and following what Gods' Word says? For without faith we are told it is impossible to please God for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. *Hebrews 11:6. We can stop here but no let's continue to bury this one.

It is not someone who falls away from the faith from following Gods word, ( to obey law)


It is the other way around, Christ is no effect to those who are justified by the law, it is they, who are fallen from grace..



Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[Christian7777777]

So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us

*Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10.


According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26.

Happy Sabbath

Obedience to Gods law ( is a law of faith and a law of the Spirit of life in Christ, the law of Christ and kindness to bear one another's burdens. It is the opposite to law, as the law is to the lawless and disobedient, against such there is no law.


1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.




Law and love are again opposites, the law is for those who hate, but love is for those who need no law.

Again the difference between the children of God and the devil is righteousness, believing Christ is risen is that righteousness, which is calling on the Lord out of a pure heart ( purified by believing in the pure blood of Christ offered for us)....



Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

 

[Christian7777777]

God does not give eternal life to those who do not believe and do not follow what His Word says because John 10:26 says that they are not His sheep. John 10:28 does not say when eternal life is given it says that eternal life is given nothing more. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, we receive the "Hope" of eternal life (see post # 262 linked) through God's promises that are "conditionally" given to those who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word.

LoveGodsword is repeating exactly the error of what Israel it says, did.




"follow what His Word says

"who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word"




Look at what is testified of Israel:



"Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness"




Now see the difference of faith for the Gentiles..


"the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness"


Israel following after what is said and following sanctification is them stumbling at the stumblingstone of FAITH..



Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.




As told already, they cannot follow after sanctification ( follow AFTER HIS WORD AND FOLLOWED AFTER THE LAW) because Christ is MADE UNTO US SANCTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION ONCE FOR ALL ( following after the law is glory of men)...


1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.



Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Danthemailman]

LoveGodsword is repeating exactly the error of what Israel it says, did.

"follow what His Word says

"who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word"

Look at what is testified of Israel:

"Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness"

Now see the difference of faith for the Gentiles..

"the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness"

Israel following after what is said and following sanctification is them stumbling at the stumblingstone of FAITH..

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

As told already, they cannot follow after sanctification ( follow AFTER HIS WORD AND FOLLOWED AFTER THE LAW) because Christ is MADE UNTO US SANCTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION ONCE FOR ALL ( following after the law is glory of men)...

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Israel was in serious error! Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[Christian7777777]

Israel was in serious error! Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Israel was in error in the law of sin and death, as all are in error of the same wicked way unless they convert from error ( of sin and death law)..



Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you read the context of that Hebrews 6 passage, it describes people who fall away from "tasting the heavenly gift"

No, it doesn'r say that at all.

and being partaker of the Holy Ghost.

No, it doesn't say that at all.

But they didn't lose their salvation because they were never saved in the first place.

Thank you for your presumptive opinion.

To me this is so clear that I don't even understand how people could have a different interpretation. Where did it say that they fall away from "God's blessings"?

It's only clear to you because of your pre-conceived biases.

Heb 6-
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

v.4 and 5 describe the state of BELIEVERS. Impossible to use these descriptions for unbelievers.

v.6 says "AND who have fallen away". Another description, which simply is added to the descriptions in v.4 and 5.

The verse CLEARLY DOESN'T say they fell away from all those descriptions, as you wrongly assert.

If this text is describing unbelievers, please explain how any unbeliever can "crzucity the Son of God ALL OVER AGAIN. Doesn't make any sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do not see you have explained that passage anywhere in this entire thread.

Please tell me the Scripture. I'm not going to wade back into the thread.

You get provided scripture and simply provide a an opinion unsupported by scripture and state what the scriptures say verbatim is not really saying what it says.

If I say "verbatim" then I mean the words are clear enough. If you disagree, you are going to have to prove they don't really mean what they say.

Everyone has the same words to work off. And words MEAN THINGS. So if any verse is claimed to mean exactly what it says, and you disagree, you're going to have to prove it with a clear explanation. Which you haven't done for any verse I've quoted.

For me only God's Word us true and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Our opinions do not really matter much.

I'm NOT giving opinion when I quote Scripture. I'm giving verses that are SO CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD that even grade school children can easily understand what they are SAYING.

Again, if you disagree, you are going to have to prove that the verses DON'T really MEAN what they say.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsword is repeating exactly the error of what Israel it says, did.




"follow what His Word says

"who are believing (justification) and following (sanctification) His Word"




Look at what is testified of Israel:



"Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness"




Now see the difference of faith for the Gentiles..


"the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness"


Israel following after what is said and following sanctification is them stumbling at the stumblingstone of FAITH..



Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.




As told already, they cannot follow after sanctification ( follow AFTER HIS WORD AND FOLLOWED AFTER THE LAW) because Christ is MADE UNTO US SANCTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION ONCE FOR ALL ( following after the law is glory of men)...


1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.



Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I have said no such thing.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Israel was in serious error! Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Christ is the end of the law because that is where the law leads us when we have a knowledge of what sin is (see Galatians 3:22-25; Romans 7:7). No one is telling you to go and seek your own righteousness from law keeping (see post # 425 linked). So what point are you making? You did not make one and if we are both in agreement that we cannot get our righteousness from law keeping, what is your argument? You have none because we are both in agreement. All the law does in the new covenant is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.

Happy Sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Please tell me the Scripture. I'm not going to wade back into the thread.


If I say "verbatim" then I mean the words are clear enough. If you disagree, you are going to have to prove they don't really mean what they say.

Everyone has the same words to work off. And words MEAN THINGS. So if any verse is claimed to mean exactly what it says, and you disagree, you're going to have to prove it with a clear explanation. Which you haven't done for any verse I've quoted.


I'm NOT giving opinion when I quote Scripture. I'm giving verses that are SO CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD that even grade school children can easily understand what they are SAYING.

Again, if you disagree, you are going to have to prove that the verses DON'T really MEAN what they say.

I am sorry I do not believe you so we will of course agree to disagree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm NOT giving opinion when I quote Scripture. I'm giving verses that are SO CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD that even grade school children can easily understand what they are SAYING.

Again, if you disagree, you are going to have to prove that the verses DON'T really MEAN what they say.

I am sorry I do not believe you so we will of course agree to disagree.

As I said above, "if you disagree, you are going to hve to prove that the verses DON'T realy MEANS what they say."

Instead, you just give my your own opinion: "I do not believe you".

So what? Prove that I'm wrong, if I am.

Address John 10:28 and show that Jesus wasn't teaching eternal security.

Oh, and while you are at it, please address 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Another verse that needs no "interpretation".

Please explain how someone who has been born again, of IMPERISHABLE seed no less, can, uh, perish.

This is the same thing that Jesus taught in John 10:28.

But, of course, you are free to refute me with actual evidence and not just opinion.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm NOT giving opinion when I quote Scripture. I'm giving verses that are SO CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD that even grade school children can easily understand what they are SAYING.

Again, if you disagree, you are going to have to prove that the verses DON'T really MEAN what they say.

As I said above, "if you disagree, you are going to hve to prove that the verses DON'T realy MEANS what they say."

Instead, you just give my your own opinion: "I do not believe you".

So what? Prove that I'm wrong, if I am.

Address John 10:28 and show that Jesus wasn't teaching eternal security.

Oh, and while you are at it, please address 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Another verse that needs no "interpretation".

Please explain how someone who has been born again, of IMPERISHABLE seed no less, can, uh, perish.

This is the same thing that Jesus taught in John 10:28.

But, of course, you are free to refute me with actual evidence and not just opinion.

Actually you were giving your opinion. You gave your opinion on an interpretation of the scripture you provided, then once it was investigated it was not saying what you were claiming it was saying. Your opinion was refuted with scripture evidence. (see first three posts on this page and all through this thread including the OP).

Take Care

 

[klutedavid]

Christ is the end of the law because that is where the law leads us when we have a knowledge of what sin is (see Galatians 3:22-25; Romans 7:7). No one is telling you to go and seek your own righteousness from law keeping (see post # 425 linked). So what point are you making? You did not make one and if we are both in agreement that we cannot get our righteousness from law keeping, what is your argument? You have none because we are both in agreement. All the law does in the new covenant is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.

Happy Sabbath.

Your reply was not correct, LGW.

You said this, 'All the law does in the new covenant is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.'

You don't need to break any law to understand what sin is?

Where did you get that idea from?

There are law's that I have never broken which grant me a knowledge of sin.