Why preach the gospel?

[mkgal1]

You do not believe in eternal punishment. It's only a time out that people face. So speaking for myself here. Why would people repent, if they are already going to be allowed to enter heaven? It's kinda like they can sin, as much and as bad, as they want, and still go to heaven!

I'm not answering for ClementofA...but since I'm also of the belief that there's no such thing as ECT, then I'm answering this with my thoughts.

I don't see sin as something "we got to do" when we were unbelievers (as if that were a privilege).
Christ "set us free"......the earlier we get out of the shackles, the better, I think. Sin causes death and destruction: death of relationships; death of our spirit (and I don't mean our "soul"); destruction of others; destruction of our peace.....etc. Why would someone WANT to willfully hold on to that?

 

[ladodgers6]

I'm not answering for ClementofA...but since I'm also of the belief that there's no such thing as ECT, then I'm answering this with my thoughts.

I don't see sin as something "we got to do" when we were unbelievers (as if that were a privilege).
Christ "set us free"......the earlier we get out of the shackles, the better, I think. Sin causes death and destruction: death of relationships; death of our spirit (and I don't mean our "soul"); destruction of others; destruction of our peace.....etc. Why would someone WANT to willfully hold on to that?

No problem, please by all means, join our conversation. My issue with purgatory for example, is first of all, it is, nowhere taught in Scripture.

Sinners by nature are in bondage to sin. They love to sin. And telling them that everyone is going to heaven regardless if they repent or not, because God will not send people to hell for eternity. Now, why would they repent? If only a time out is given!

There is no need for them to believe and repent, because they are already going to heaven, once their time out is over.

 

[ladodgers6]

I'm not answering for ClementofA...but since I'm also of the belief that there's no such thing as ECT, then I'm answering this with my thoughts.

I don't see sin as something "we got to do" when we were unbelievers (as if that were a privilege).
Christ "set us free"......the earlier we get out of the shackles, the better, I think. Sin causes death and destruction: death of relationships; death of our spirit (and I don't mean our "soul"); destruction of others; destruction of our peace.....etc. Why would someone WANT to willfully hold on to that?

Why would a serial killer, serial rapist, child molester, etc., stop if all they were facing was a time out, instead of life or death ?

 

[SkyWriting]

So why evangelize? Because Christ commanded it. Which is the same answer a Calvinist gave me.

That's a fine answer. I don't believe in it for me, but we all have unique gifts.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why would a serial killer, serial rapist, child molester, etc., stop if all they were facing was a time out, instead of life or death ?

They are typically not concerned with consequences. The live in the "now". As we all should, but facing a different direction.

 

[ClementofA]

Well, from what you have written so far. Everyone is eventually saved, correct?

By definition the word universalism means all - shall - be saved. Not that they are all already saved. Christian universalism says it will be accomplished through Christ. As per the Scriptures.

You do not believe in eternal punishment. It's only a time out that people face.

No, it's not only a time out. It's "hell". Just not everlasting sadistic pointless tortures.

So speaking for myself here. Why would people repent, if they are already going to be allowed to enter heaven?

Because it's better not to go to "hell". Because living righteously & lovingly in Christ is the right & peaceful life to live. Jesus called it "abundant life". Free from slavery to sin.

It's kinda like they can sin, as much and as bad, as they want, and still go to heaven!

The more they rebel, the worse it will be for them (Rom.2:4-16; LK.12:47-48).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Oldmantook]

So you downplay sin or rate it? You seem to be saying that when Peter sinned....it was a "mistake"....but someone that views pornography (don't get this twisted...I see that as spiritually deadly...I'm not suggesting it's okay) isn't truly saved.....even if that person is faithful in many other areas and are only struggling in this one particular area?

Someone can make a mistake and not be sinning. Moreover, one can repent of one's mistake when is it is a sin. However, one who habitually sins evidences no repentance because one continues in the sin. That is a crucial difference that you fail to distinguish. You have managed to avoid answering my question - if someone who engages in habitual sin and does not repent - is he/she still saved? A simple yes or no will suffice.

I don't believe that we are immediately restored. I believe it's a process. Some people have more baggage to shed than others (and I *do* believe that our Christian community ought to help by gently coming together to restore those that are harming others -and themselves- with their behavior). Our spiritual transformations are dependent upon our emotional transformations (I believe)....and there're different degrees of healing that needs to take place. I don't want to get too far off topic, but this video may bring to light what I'm referring to. I just don't believe it's healthy for us to take the stance that "sin" is what those people over-------------------------------------------------------> there do (distancing ourselves as if we don't have any sin of our own to be concerned about).

Healing yes. Restoration yes. Process yes. What happens though if a believer who knowingly harbors sin refuses help and stubbornly persists in disobedience?

 

[ClementofA]

Why would a serial killer, serial rapist, child molester, etc., stop if all they were facing was a time out, instead of life or death ?

(1) Because they thought it was wrong to harm other people. Or (2) for their own sanity & peace of mind. Or (3) in loving response to an all loving God Who loves them with all of His heart them in spite of themselves.

Many people who don't believe in an endless torture chamber, & are therefore not motivated by such a myth, have stopped dealing drugs, being drunkards, pimps, etc.

The Bible says "We love, because He first loved us" (1 Jn.4:19), not (1) because He terrified us into loving by the fear of an endless torture chamber or (2) because He's always holding a big baseball bat over our heads ready to clobber us the second we ever get out of line.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1 Jn.4:18)

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ou-will-be-free-indeed.8068728/#post-72795746

 

[ladodgers6]

(1) Because they thought it was wrong to harm other people. Or (2) for their own sanity & peace of mind. Or (3) in loving response to an all loving God Who loves them with all of His heart them in spite of themselves.

Many people who don't believe in an endless torture chamber, & are therefore not motivated by such a myth, have stopped dealing drugs, being drunkards, pimps, etc.

The Bible says "We love, because He first loved us" (1 Jn.4:19), not (1) because He terrified us into loving by the fear of an endless torture chamber or (2) because He's always holding a big baseball bat over our heads ready to clobber us the second we ever get out of line.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1 Jn.4:18)

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ou-will-be-free-indeed.8068728/#post-72795746

You are not understanding my point here. The

(1) Because they thought it was wrong to harm other people. Or (2) for their own sanity & peace of mind. Or (3) in loving response to an all loving God Who loves them with all of His heart them in spite of themselves.

Many people who don't believe in an endless torture chamber, & are therefore not motivated by such a myth, have stopped dealing drugs, being drunkards, pimps, etc.

The Bible says "We love, because He first loved us" (1 Jn.4:19), not (1) because He terrified us into loving by the fear of an endless torture chamber or (2) because He's always holding a big baseball bat over our heads ready to clobber us the second we ever get out of line.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1 Jn.4:18)

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ou-will-be-free-indeed.8068728/#post-72795746

If what you say is the case. Then why the law? Why was Adam and Eve cast out of paradise? Why are they banned from the tree of life? Why do we're have civil law, and moral law, if what you say is true?

 

[ladodgers6]

(1) Because they thought it was wrong to harm other people. Or (2) for their own sanity & peace of mind. Or (3) in loving response to an all loving God Who loves them with all of His heart them in spite of themselves.

Many people who don't believe in an endless torture chamber, & are therefore not motivated by such a myth, have stopped dealing drugs, being drunkards, pimps, etc.

The Bible says "We love, because He first loved us" (1 Jn.4:19), not (1) because He terrified us into loving by the fear of an endless torture chamber or (2) because He's always holding a big baseball bat over our heads ready to clobber us the second we ever get out of line.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1 Jn.4:18)

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ou-will-be-free-indeed.8068728/#post-72795746

Before I forget. You did not answer my question about serial killers, serial rapists, child molesters, pedophiles only facing a time out, instead of facing life in prison or death. Please address how this fits into your theology?

 

[ladodgers6]

(1) Because they thought it was wrong to harm other people. Or (2) for their own sanity & peace of mind. Or (3) in loving response to an all loving God Who loves them with all of His heart them in spite of themselves.

Okay, explain why God brought the flood? Explain Sodom and Gomorrah? Explain the bondage of the Israelites in Egypt? The list goes on and on. This is not because of SIN? Should God who is white hot holiness. Look away from all of this? Should sin go unpunished? Should we look away when serial killers, serial rapists, child molesters and pedophiles do what they do?

Many people who don't believe in an endless torture chamber, & are therefore not motivated by such a myth, have stopped dealing drugs, being drunkards, pimps, etc.

I am saying that we need the law. And it is the precise reason why God provided the law. The law is God's holy moral character. And unless you are perfectly holy, you will not see the Father. Adam broke God's law in the garden, that Adam swore he would keep with obedience. But we know what happened.

The Bible says "We love, because He first loved us" (1 Jn.4:19), not (1) because He terrified us into loving by the fear of an endless torture chamber or (2) because He's always holding a big baseball bat over our heads ready to clobber us the second we ever get out of line.

This is what I believe. The law of God is preached to show who we are before a Holy Righteous God. If this is not preached to unbelievers, why would they need a Savior? To be saved from what exactly, they ask. Why did Christ the sin of God have to die? Why can't God just let it go? Why does anyone need to die?

The law drives sinners to what saves; namely Christ Jesus! Because the law brings knowledge of sin. Paul said in Roman's 7:9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

So please, if you would, explain this?

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1 Jn.4:18)

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ou-will-be-free-indeed.8068728/#post-72795746

So because we love our neighbors as ourselves. Should we look the other way, when our neighbor kills, rapes, molestes a child and so forth?

 

[SkyWriting]

However, one who habitually sins evidences no repentance because one continues in the sin. That is a crucial difference that you fail to distinguish. You have managed to avoid answering my question - if someone who engages in habitual sin and does not repent - is he/she still saved?

Yes. Forgiveness is not dependant on the actions of the sinners.

14 We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes. Forgiveness is not dependant on the actions of the sinners.

14 We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do.

So...if one does not engage in the action of repentance upon sinning you are claiming that forgiveness is automatic and not dependent on one repenting of one's sins correct??

 

[SkyWriting]

So...if one does not engage in the action of repentance upon sinning you are claiming that forgiveness is automatic and not dependent on one repenting of one's sins correct??

Kind of!!! Forgiveness is a given, but receiving the gift can only be accomplished through repentance. Jesus didn't wait for our apology before saving us.

 

[Oldmantook]

Kind of!!! Forgiveness is a given, but receiving the gift can only be accomplished through repentance. Jesus didn't wait for our apology before saving us.

The gift of forgiveness is given upon repentance. But what happens when a believer doesn't repent of his sins. Say if I harbor unforgiveness toward someone who had hurt me in my life and I refuse to forgive that person for what he/she did to me. Am I still forgiven? Not according Jesus' own words:
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matt 6:15

 

[ClementofA]

Before I forget. You did not answer my question about serial killers, serial rapists, child molesters, pedophiles only facing a time out, instead of facing life in prison or death. Please address how this fits into your theology?

I already addressed your "time out" misrepresentation in post # 126.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[ClementofA]

Okay, explain why God brought the flood? Explain Sodom and Gomorrah? Explain the bondage of the Israelites in Egypt? The list goes on and on. This is not because of SIN?

What is there to explain? Of course sin has consequences. Does the Bible say any of them were tortured forever for their brief time in sin?

Should God who is white hot holiness. Look away from all of this? Should sin go unpunished? Should we look away when serial killers, serial rapists, child molesters and pedophiles do what they do?

No, sin should not go unpunished. Neither should finite sins by sinners result in them being punished infinitely, forever & ever.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[ladodgers6]

I already addressed your "time out" misrepresentation in post # 126.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Okay, I'll rephrase. Can you expound on it further, before I respond?

 

[ladodgers6]

What is there to explain? Of course sin has consequences. Does the Bible say any of them were tortured forever for their brief time in sin?

So you do believe in punishment against sin. You just think the sentencing is unfair?

So, like I said before, serial killers, serial raptists, child abusers, pedophiles, you are saying do not deserve to be in prison for life or the death penalty?

No, sin should not go unpunished. Neither should finite sins by sinners result in them being punished infinitely, forever & ever.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

If you were a judge what sentence would you render on Hitler?

 

[ClementofA]

So you do believe in punishment against sin. You just think the sentencing is unfair?

God's dealings, punishments, judgements, wrath, etc, regarding sin & sinners is never unfair. It is always corrective, never sadistic, pointless or endless.

So, like I said before, serial killers, serial raptists, child abusers, pedophiles, you are saying do not deserve to be in prison for life or the death penalty?

I'm not even addressing the question of human laws or human opinions re crimes. What does that have to do with Scripture & what it says about postmortem consequences?

What did Saul, the "worst of sinners", the inquisitionist of Christian men & women, who compelled them to blaspheme, & was himself a blasphemer & murderer deserve?

If you were a judge what sentence would you render on Hitler?

What does this have to do with Scripture & God's judgements? For all i know Hitler could be in heaven now sipping tea with Saul who became the apostle Paul. Do you consider yourself better than either of them?

As a Calvinist what made you so lucky to win the lottery of being chosen as one of God's elect? Did Love Omnipotent choose the nonelect for the purpose of frying them alive forever?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html