Why preach the gospel?

yeshuaslavejeff

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Why? There is no indication of punishment even, for those who are born again actually, in the resurrection.

I actually believe we ALL will endure some amount of "torment"
===================================
Maybe because already people would just try to follow a list of do's to be accepted ?

All the Ekklesia have a new heart that cares for the poor and the widow and the sick and so forth, in harmony with Yahweh's Word as written in the Bible.
(even if they cannot read and do not have a Bible)
Most people on earth, and many in churches on earth do not.


These parables DO beg the question (in my mind): if a person believes this is an eternal destination with NO grace after our death - then why isn't more emphasis being placed on the importance of how we treat the poor and marginalized?
 
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mkgal1

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The Israelites were God's chosen people. They were "saved" as long as they remained obedient. Those who were disobedient, were no longer redeemed.
Okay.....I'm getting your argument now.
 
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mkgal1

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Heb 6:4 refers to any regenerate believer. Timoria indicates that punishment for those who fall away from the faith is worse than punishment (kolasis) for unbelievers.
The book of Hebrews was written to the Jews (and needs to be kept in context). That doesn't mean it's not beneficial to us -but to dismiss it's original audience and what is meant by "trampled the Son of God underfoot" -IMO- is to water it down (and miss a lot of significance of something specific).

To explain further....

Quoting Vladimir Moss :

He came as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53, not the ferocious war-lord of the apocalypses. And He came to restore Israel, not as a State ruling over all the nations by the power of the sword, but as the kernel of the Universal Church ruling by the power of the Spirit. His Kingdom was not of this world; it was the inner Kingdom of Grace.​

The question was: would the Jews accept Him as the Messiah, as the true King of Israel, together with the spiritual, not the nationalist image of Messiahship? On this would depend the salvation of both the people and their State… Tragically, in their great majority the Jews failed this test. They both crucified their True King and God, and said to Pilate: "We have no other king but Caesar" (John 19.15). At that moment they became no different spiritually from the other pagan peoples; for, like the pagans, they had come to recognize a mere man, the Roman emperor, as higher than God Himself. As St. John Chrysostom writes: “Here they declined the Kingdom of Christ and called to themselves that of Caesar.”

What made this apostasy worse was the fact that they were not compelled to it by any despotic decree. Pilate not only did not demand this recognition of Caesar from them, but had said of Christ – “Behold your king” (John 19.14), and had then ordered the sign, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews”, to be nailed above the cross. The Jews had in effect carried out both a democratic revolution against their True King, and, at the same time, a despotic obeisance to a false god-king.

Thus did the City of God on earth become the City of Man - and the stronghold of Satan: “How has the faithful city become a harlot! It was full of justice, righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers” (Isaiah 1.21). Thus did the original sin committed under Saul, when the people of God sought a king who would rule them "like all the nations", reap its final wages in their submission to "the god of this world”.

But the positive result was that the Kingdom, with all its ineffable and inestimable benefits, were passed to other peoples. As the Lord Himself had prophesied: “The Kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21.43). Or as St. Paul put it: “What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect [from the Gentiles] have obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Romans 11.7). Thus all the other peoples of the world were now given the opportunity of joining God’s Kingdom in the Church, “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6.16).

But for the Jews who rejected Him it was another matter. After their killing of Christ – which was not only regicide, but also Deicide, an act unparalleled in evil in the history of the world – there came upon them the punishment prophesied by Christ: “great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24.21). “That on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation…” (Matthew 23.35-36). This prophecy was fulfilled in 66-70 AD, when the Jews, incited by the Zealots, rose up in armed rebellion against Rome. The Roman Emperors Titus and Vespasian crushed the rebellion, destroyed the Temple and killed very many of the Jews. The extent of the slaughter is a matter of controversy, but the depth of the horror and suffering is beyond dispute. ~ http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/809/christ,-israel-fall-jerusalem/
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Yahweh REVEALS, Yahweh GIVES Understanding, HIS Understanding of Scripture and everything concerning Salvation in Jesus in this life, to little children,
the same
every time He does, that is without any contradiction.

The sinful lenses people around the world throughout history 'use' to lean on their own understanding always is in error, and leads to more errors.

(and we each view the Scriptures through the lens of our choice)
 
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Oldmantook

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The book of Hebrews was written to the Jews (and needs to be kept in context). The way I read that passage.....the word "timoria" is used, not as a PREscriptive...but a descriptive of what is thought is deserved of those that "trample the Son of God underfoot". The point isn't what they actually *get*. The passage also states that God has said "vengeance is mine". The question then is......is He a God of vengeance......or a God of restoration (and we each view the Scriptures through the lens of our choice)?
Jews who were believers. They got what they deserved as God is indeed just. Justice can lead to restoration. I see no problem whatsoever.
 
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mkgal1

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Jews who were believers. They got what they deserved as God is indeed just. Justice can lead to restoration. I see no problem whatsoever.
I've since edited my post (just letting you know).
 
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mkgal1

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Just to try to clarify: I'm of the belief that our immature way of thinking is that when someone does something horrible (especially to us or someone we love)....we believe that person "needs to pay" for that (we are vengeful and want to hurt them...or -at least- have them endure pain somehow).

But God's way is about restoring all things (not at the expense of those originally harmed).

I believe the Old Covenant signifies our immature belief system (and those that didn't honor God under that covenant were handed down the consequences of that system...not eternally, though, in my belief).....and the New Covenant (as Hebrews 8:6 states) is superior in that it is established on better promises.

To finally circle this back to Clement's OP.....we preach the Gospel in order to join with Him in advancing the Kingdom of God (and we do that by loving others well - not to "sell them" anything or to change them.....but just because we love Him).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Someone mature or immature can sin. If they repent they may be forgiven.
If they never repent of being sinful, they perish.
If they trample underfoot the Gospel of Jesus, so that as written in the BIBLE there no longer remains any sacrifice (no forgiveness) for their sin, they perish.

The Bible does not pull any punches, it is very clear about this.
This is all one in Scripture with the GOOD NEWS GOSPEL of JESUS SALVATION -
and
is the very sharp contrast between what happens to those who do what is right,
vs those who do not do what is right. (as written and as described throughout the BIBLE, which is GOD'S WORD).
 
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ClementofA

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A believer who remains disobedient/unrepentant and continues to sin ends up in the lake of fire. This FORMER believer will eventually be redeemed but he will saved only through the fire (1 Cor 3:15). On the other hand, believers who remain faithful and obedient NEVER suffer torment/fire.

Is your viewpoint that 1 Cor.3:15 refers to the lake of fire? (BTW, I read somewhere that RC's interpret it as speaking of purgatory). Do you take 1 Cor.3:15 as a text in support of UR? Most anti-UR commentators i've read see the context being about rewards for believers & saying nothing about the final destiny of unbelievers.
 
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mkgal1

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OldManTook said:
A believer who remains disobedient/unrepentant and continues to sin ends up in the lake of fire. This FORMER believer will eventually be redeemed but he will saved only through the fire (1 Cor 3:15). On the other hand, believers who remain faithful and obedient NEVER suffer torment/fire.
I've never met anyone (speaking of professed believers) that's an all-or-nothing kind of person. What I mean is.....we all have certain blindspots that keep us from being perfect that only God will be able to heal us of (in my belief, anyway). It's not that we can be classified as a "FORMER believer" because of imperfections.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You most likely have met many people who are lost, including many who were once saved and now are lost. The Bible gives very clear instructions concerning all of this.
It is not related to vague or general "imperfections".
There are many former believers on this forum (according to their own posts) .

More unbelievers read it probably than believers do (by a large percentage).

I've never met anyone that's an all-or-nothing kind of person. What I mean is.....we all have certain blindspots that keep us from being perfect that only God will be able to heal us of (in my belief, anyway). It's not that we can be classified as a "FORMER believer" because of imperfections.
 
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mkgal1

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Is your viewpoint that 1 Cor.3:15 refers to the lake of fire? (BTW, I read somewhere that RC's interpret it as speaking of purgatory). Do you take 1 Cor.3:15 as a text in support of UR? Most anti-UR commentators i've read see the context being about rewards for believers & saying nothing about the final destiny of unbelievers.
I agree that this verse isn't making any reference to the final destiny of unbelievers. Look at the next verse:


1st Corinthians 3:15 ~ If the work is burned, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
 
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mkgal1

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17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
Why are you highlighting that? Is that how you view the entire Bible - searching for phrases like that?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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A lot of the posts on a lot of the threads including this one seem to imply or state a false gospel that God will not destroy sinful souls who do not repent. i.e. universal somethingism , etc .... this is most distressing for those seeking the truth and seeking to become believers and misleads multitudes in many / most? / places.

As per the title "WHY PREACH THE GOSPEL"
it is
to save wicked evil people from destruction out of a wicked evil generation/ mankind.....
NOT to save nice wholesome people who do not need a doctor.

If they are not saved, they perish. Most people perish, accrording to Revelation, Galatians, EPhesians and the rest of Scripture.
 
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ClementofA

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I agree that this verse isn't making any reference to the final destiny of unbelievers. Look at the next verse:


1st Corinthians 3:15 ~ If the work is burned, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

There is an interesting discussion on the same verses here:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/1-corinthians-3-15-universal-salvation-in/6171
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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A lot of the posts on a lot of the threads (and other sites) including this one seem to imply or state a false gospel that God will not destroy sinful souls who do not repent. i.e. universal somethingism , etc .... this is most distressing for those seeking the truth and seeking to become believers and misleads multitudes in many / most? / places.
 
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ClementofA

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A lot of the posts on a lot of the threads (and other sites) including this one seem to imply or state a false gospel that God will not destroy sinful souls who do not repent. i.e. universal somethingism , etc .... this is most distressing for those seeking the truth and seeking to become believers and misleads multitudes in many / most? / places.

If one hasn't been paying attention, it is not surprising that they would misrepresent things in that way, and make up false statements with nothing backing them. The ignorance re what Christian Scriptural Universalism teaches is continually evident by posts & posters on these & other forums, as well as in books opposing such a view.

So tradgic, Jesus says don't fear him who can destroy the body, fear him that can destroy body and soul in he'll.

God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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mkgal1

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If a person's judgement is between them and God (which, I'm fairly certain we can all agree on THAT much) then it makes me wonder why it irritates some people that some of us happen to believe that God's love is powerful and victorious enough to eventually save all from their sin. I mean.....it doesn't affect them (they can continue on -just the same- in their relationship with God and believe they have something not all others have).

Just pondering....that's all.
 
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Oldmantook

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Is your viewpoint that 1 Cor.3:15 refers to the lake of fire? (BTW, I read somewhere that RC's interpret it as speaking of purgatory). Do you take 1 Cor.3:15 as a text in support of UR? Most anti-UR commentators i've read see the context being about rewards for believers & saying nothing about the final destiny of unbelievers.
I do believe that 1 Cor 3:15 does indeed refer to the LOF though the text itself does not state that. Eternal security types are fond of using that verse as a proof-text for OSAS but they typically never bother to explain what being saved by fire entails. Ironically, I believe it actually means the opposite of eternal security as the sinning believer as evidenced by their works (or lack of) is condemned to spiritual death in the LOF where he reaps what he has sown despite once having a knowledge of the truth. Eventually, after spending an "age" of time in the LOF, he is reconciled back to God thus being saved by fire.
 
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